Would you give up the USA/Canada for increased liberty?

[manimal]

maybe all the technically savvy people can live in one place and the rest of the Luddites can live off the land or walmart whichever is easier...

 

[Wreckage]

.

1) People would not want to just get up and move. They have lives and jobs right now where they are.

Lives maybe, jobs..... well not so much these days.

2) Companies would move. Obviously they would go to the place they would profit the most or be paying the least amount of taxes.

They already do this. Move to better locations based on tax incentives. Happens all the time.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Just as long as there's a unified military. Then I'm fine with it.

Edit: And this is the way our country is supposed to work, by the way. The federal government is supposed to be much smaller than it is today, and the states are meant to be closer to being their own countries.

 

[Zebo]

I'd give up my American citizenship in a heartbeat if I knew and could speak German fluently to live in Germany. Why?
No harassment from police for speeding, driving aggressively, etc
No harassment from jealous people for trivial things like driving a nicer car than them
No stress about owning nice things and having to worry about people doing stupid shit to it
No pressure to conform to standards like whatever stupid fad is in, whether it's clothes, TV shows, movies, etc
No stress about worrying about health care, or saving up college funds if you have kids
No stress about letting your kids play on the street, with other kids, or riding the city bus or tram
No stress from nosy neighbors, busy-bodies
No inferiority complex, no self entitlement mentality that affects most in the USA
No growth hormones in meats, vegetables, dairy, etc
No genetically modified animals or vegetables
Drive as fast as you can afford to have a car that goes fast on the Autobahn
No need for SUV's or trucks because of their better roads/infrastructure
Ride a train from practically any city without needing a car
Ride a bicycle anywhere
Walk practically anywhere
Travel to different countries instead of different states or counties
2 Continents within a couple hours flight
High quality social services
Friendly people (real authentic friendly, not fake I want your money friendly)
Etc, etc

So many reasons to list.

Much of that social welfare is disappearing due to being unsustainable. Germany is unique compared to most of EU already taking deep cuts but won't be immune either.

There are plenty of speed limits, actually everywhere but SOME parts of autobahn. And a license costs $2500 and you must have a perfect car which is annually inspected adding significant expense. So not everyone even has the luxury of driving at break neck speeds.

There is plenty of pressures - that protestant work ethic and perfection Germans demand would leave most Americans as an outsider forever or a state leach for as long as that lasts.

Real estate is extremely expensive - so expensive most families have generational living. And no such thing as FHA loans. Better have 30-40% down.

Germany has a historically very high unemployment and without going through thier system of education or apprenticeship your chances of ever obtaining any job other than low wage service jobs people from the eastern block must take are slim to none.

Starting any business is a byzantine expensive process few have to brains or capital to make.

In sum Grass is always greener...


I am dual citizen not with Germany but Sweden since mom is from there and would never trade places with my cousins there for similar and other reasons.

 

[bfdd]

Or you know just shrink the feds, increase the state's governments and tax revenue and we can pretty much do like you're describing withless shittiness.

 

[Steeplerot]

How does "Liberty" always devolve somehow into "White Male aristrocracy's freedom to screw everyone else" in these libertarian cult threads?

 

[bfdd]

How does "Liberty" always devolve somehow into "White Male aristrocracy's freedom to screw everyone else" in these libertarian cult threads?

While that's sometimes true, it mostly has to do with you not understanding liberty.

 

[PrinceofWands]

While that's sometimes true, it mostly has to do with you not understanding liberty.

Unbiased supporting evidence?

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Or you know just shrink the feds, increase the state's governments and tax revenue and we can pretty much do like you're describing withless shittiness.

The fact that this is being discussed as a novel idea when its more or less how out country is supposed to function says a lot about how far away we are from actually following the constitution.

 

[Steeplerot]

While that's sometimes true, it mostly has to do with you not understanding liberty.

Is the bumper sticker term of liberty changing again this week? Don't tread on Koch bros maybe? I never could keep up with the think tank libertarian zombie realms official liberty definitions.

 

[Martin]

The chances of US merging with Canada is higher than US and Canada splitting into smaller countries. Think big. Think globalisation.

There are movements in the opposite. Scottish flemish and wallonoan independence movements.

 

[lefenzy]

No no no. You are posing a hypothetical question, but in any case, the solution to this problem is not to be found in balkanizing the country. The idea of a compound republic came into being with the writing of the Constitution: multiple, overlapping centers of power that check each other; local responsibilities taken care of by local government for responsiveness; higher authorities managing lower authorities on issues that span multiple lower level governments. The problem is that the federal government has grown too large. It continues to take on more and more responsibilities that ought to have been left to states. The result is a leviathan whose policy decisions affect the entire country and whose bureaucracies are unable to respond properly to the various needs and demands of different areas of the country. So the solution already exists. We have written into the constitution and 10th amendment design principles that intend for a central power creating unity, and yet responsive government at the local and state level. Federalism.

 

[potluv]

Much of that social welfare is disappearing due to being unsustainable. Germany is unique compared to most of EU already taking deep cuts but won't be immune either.

There are plenty of speed limits, actually everywhere but SOME parts of autobahn. And a license costs $2500 and you must have a perfect car which is annually inspected adding significant expense. So not everyone even has the luxury of driving at break neck speeds.

There is plenty of pressures - that protestant work ethic and perfection Germans demand would leave most Americans as an outsider forever or a state leach for as long as that lasts.

Real estate is extremely expensive - so expensive most families have generational living. And no such thing as FHA loans. Better have 30-40% down.

Germany has a historically very high unemployment and without going through thier system of education or apprenticeship your chances of ever obtaining any job other than low wage service jobs people from the eastern block must take are slim to none.

Starting any business is a byzantine expensive process few have to brains or capital to make.

In sum Grass is always greener...


I am dual citizen not with Germany but Sweden since mom is from there and would never trade places with my cousins there for similar and other reasons.

At least they have welfare instead of the bare necessities that keeps people locked in poverty for the most part like in the USA. God forbid if you go homeless here too.

I can deal with no speed limits in rural areas, even on the bundestrasses, and I did the whole fahrschule thing when the dollar was equal to the euro, and it was at the time 1500 euros.

The work ethic I admire, I'd rather be happy being employed, getting 3 months of vacation/holiday time, and have pride in my work instead of the typical "I hate my job, I'd rather surf the net, or go home" mentality while being scared of losing my job at any given moment, or dealing with people in retail who'd rather be rude instead of doing their job.

Being unemployed in Germany or Europe beats being unemployed in the USA, you won't go homeless unless you decide to become homeless over there. Real Estate is only expensive in the larger cities, or cities with lots of tourism, or a diverse economy with lots of jobs... there are plenty of cheaper cities (like Schweinfurt) or even rural real estate.

Mortgages that go up to 70 years, plus its practically forbidden to foreclose on someone who can't make a payment because it's unethical to kick someone out of their home. Generational living is better than letting your parents rot in a nursing home like America's throwaway society, plus the benefit of your kids always being around their grandparents allows for the passing down of traditions, work ethics, etc.

Their education is practically on par with any education provided by the average private school offered in the USA, while kids only attend from 7/8AM to 12-1PM because unlike Americans, their employers don't demand that they work 8+ hours a day (school basically conditions you to get ready for employment anyway).

Starting a business is expensive, but if you have a good idea, the government will help you in getting it going... an American citizen started daycares and became a millionaire because no such business existed in Germany before.

The grass is greener in Germany, literally... I've never seen more beautiful grass than the hills around Baed Brueckenau, south of Fulda.

I wish I had the luxury of being born in Germany to even have a dual citizenship or option of choosing to have a German citizenship... but having lived there for 4 years and having a German license, I might be able to get away with living there for another 4 years and applying for citizenship instead of the usual 8 year minimum.

 

[bamacre]

Is the bumper sticker term of liberty changing again this week? Don't tread on Koch bros maybe? I never could keep up with the think tank libertarian zombie realms official liberty definitions.

Kroch is about as much of a libertarian as Obama is a progressive.

 

[TareX]

The idea is that splitting up the US/Canada into a bunch of large countries that group people with shared views and history

That sounds.... very, very Nazi.

So what if someone disagrees with the "shared views"? Would you kick him out?
What about an immigrant who doesn't share the "history"? Would his family be kicked out?

What happens when the country needs a bigger labor force, would you only bring immigrants for low income jobs i.e. slavery?

Also, what the hell would this accomplish? Why split the countries based on "shared views and history"? Doesn't that mean you're splitting countries based on intolerance to coexistence?

 

[TareX]

Germany has a historically very high unemployment and without going through thier system of education or apprenticeship your chances of ever obtaining any job other than low wage service jobs people from the eastern block must take are slim to none.

Not true, at least not in medicine. German-trained physicians are leaving the country for the US where they would be paid a whole lot better. That created a vacuum which is being filled by foreign-trained German-speaking physicians.

I have no reason to believe other professions wouldn't be suffering from the same problem.

 

[Anarchist420]

The Kochtopus is about as much of a libertarian as Obama is a progressive.

QFT.

I'm all in favor of reinstating the Articles of Confederation. If it's not the Articles of Confederation though, then it would depend.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Hmm, Texas is part of The South culturally and historically, they were even part of The Confederacy.

The ideological differences can be solved with greater states' rights without succession / breaking up The Union. Just leave all morality legislation to the states, which includes mandatory charity.

Amendments to clearly enumerate the powers of the Interstate Commerce, General Welfare and Common Defense clauses would clear up many of these problems.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

At least they have welfare instead of the bare necessities that keeps people locked in poverty for the most part like in the USA. God forbid if you go homeless here too.

I can deal with no speed limits in rural areas, even on the bundestrasses, and I did the whole fahrschule thing when the dollar was equal to the euro, and it was at the time 1500 euros.

The work ethic I admire, I'd rather be happy being employed, getting 3 months of vacation/holiday time, and have pride in my work instead of the typical "I hate my job, I'd rather surf the net, or go home" mentality while being scared of losing my job at any given moment, or dealing with people in retail who'd rather be rude instead of doing their job.

Being unemployed in Germany or Europe beats being unemployed in the USA, you won't go homeless unless you decide to become homeless over there. Real Estate is only expensive in the larger cities, or cities with lots of tourism, or a diverse economy with lots of jobs... there are plenty of cheaper cities (like Schweinfurt) or even rural real estate.

Mortgages that go up to 70 years, plus its practically forbidden to foreclose on someone who can't make a payment because it's unethical to kick someone out of their home. Generational living is better than letting your parents rot in a nursing home like America's throwaway society, plus the benefit of your kids always being around their grandparents allows for the passing down of traditions, work ethics, etc.

Their education is practically on par with any education provided by the average private school offered in the USA, while kids only attend from 7/8AM to 12-1PM because unlike Americans, their employers don't demand that they work 8+ hours a day (school basically conditions you to get ready for employment anyway).

Starting a business is expensive, but if you have a good idea, the government will help you in getting it going... an American citizen started daycares and became a millionaire because no such business existed in Germany before.

The grass is greener in Germany, literally... I've never seen more beautiful grass than the hills around Baed Brueckenau, south of Fulda.

I wish I had the luxury of being born in Germany to even have a dual citizenship or option of choosing to have a German citizenship... but having lived there for 4 years and having a German license, I might be able to get away with living there for another 4 years and applying for citizenship instead of the usual 8 year minimum.

This guy (or gal) makes some good points... having had the occasion to live and travel extensively in Europe and North America, I agree with these arguments.

 

[silverpig]

I think the Canadian parts would want to keep the gun laws and UHC and unless the American parts were willing to concede that point, we wouldn't merge.

 

[Phokus]

It wouldn't work out because all of the leftists would leave their country due to the high taxes and bad job market and go to the libertarian countries. But then, once there, not knowing what the heck was wrong with the place they were from, they would start clamoring for socialism again.

Yet, i don't see the stupid fuck LOLbertarians moving en masse to Somalia. Your absolutely failure of the Free State project only got like 900 or so people to move to New Hampshire

 

[Phokus]

Yeah, the wars we've been in for the past 10 years have been wonderful for our economy.

In a way he's right... America only had a thriving industrial base post WW2 was because Asia and Europe was still recovering from the war. That started eroding once they started competing with us. Capitalism only 'worked' for Americans because of death and destruction.

Obviously, invading the Middle east didn't do much, but it's not like they had an industrial base where the jobs were moving to.

Edit: Not to forget CIA operations to overthrow governments so we could control 3rd world country resources

 

[Jaskalas]

So if you agree with those, the question then is: would you give up the US/Canada if it meant increased liberties? The idea is that splitting up the US/Canada into a bunch of large countries that group people with shared views and history and produce local governments that reflect the views of the population much better.

We are a Union of 50 states. Damn straight I would support state's rights and move to the most agreeable one.

It'd be the very definition of freedom.

 

[Craig234]

In a way he's right... America only had a thriving industrial base post WW2 was because Asia and Europe was still recovering from the war. That started eroding once they started competing with us. Capitalism only 'worked' for Americans because of death and destruction.

Obviously, invading the Middle east didn't do much, but it's not like they had an industrial base where the jobs were moving to.

Edit: Not to forget CIA operations to overthrow governments so we could control 3rd world country resources

First of all, let's be clear, even if wars were good for the economy - you don't kill people for that. That's murder.

Second, wars are only good for the country if we're taking something from others of value - e.g., the war on Mexico was 'good for the economy' because we stole half their country. Wars are only good otherwise if we don't spend the money for something better - a factory building things that are destroyed is worse than a factory building something productive for society - food, roads, whatever. Eisenhower made the point clearly in his 'cross of iron' speech about excessive military spending.

 

[YoungGun21]

Lives maybe, jobs..... well not so much these days.



They already do this. Move to better locations based on tax incentives. Happens all the time.

But there would be a MASS migration of companies moving. That would be the bad part.