Would you give up the USA/Canada for increased liberty?

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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
First of all, let's be clear, even if wars were good for the economy - you don't kill people for that. That's murder.

Second, wars are only good for the country if we're taking something from others of value - e.g., the war on Mexico was 'good for the economy' because we stole half their country. Wars are only good otherwise if we don't spend the money for something better - a factory building things that are destroyed is worse than a factory building something productive for society - food, roads, whatever. Eisenhower made the point clearly in his 'cross of iron' speech about excessive military spending.

I wasn't, of course, advocating war, i was making a couple of points:

That military buildup and going to war is, in itself, not beneficial to the economy (as seen in what's happening in the middle east), but in the specific case where it prevents other countries from building up an industrial base, it certainly contributes to a nationalized monopoly on industry. This was more of a critique on capitalism, libertarianism, and free trade than anything else, that the middle and working class only benefited from it because it was an accident of sorts.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Hmm, Texas is part of The South culturally and historically, they were even part of The Confederacy.

The ideological differences can be solved with greater states' rights without succession / breaking up The Union. Just leave all morality legislation to the states, which includes mandatory charity.

Amendments to clearly enumerate the powers of the Interstate Commerce, General Welfare and Common Defense clauses would clear up many of these problems.
And the necessary and proper clause.

To clarify the commerce clause they should make an Amendment that says:

Section 1. The Federal Government shall not regulate interstate commerce except to remove interstate trade barriers set up by State legislatures.

Section 2. The Departments of <insert most cabinets> are hereby abolished effective <insert date 12 months after ratification of this Amendment>.

Then:
The General Welfare, Necessary and proper, and Common defence clauses are hereby repealed.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
How about uniting the central USA fly over states and closing the border to all of East and West coast. Chicago will be separated form southern Illinois. Texas will belong to flyover, and we will keep all of the Electricity, unless you want to pay 3 times the price.

Sounds great to me.
 
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QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Yet, i don't see the stupid fuck LOLbertarians moving en masse to Somalia.

How many times do we have to humiliate you and your gross ignorance on this matter? Freedom != Anarchy. In fact, the primary requirement for any stable society, be it libertarian or totalitarian, is the rule of law.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,674
4,148
136
Id be down for that. Would sure save a lot of headache living in a country that doesnt stand for what you stand for.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,852
29,649
146
The only thing I see making sense is Quebec and possibly Texas going their own ways.

regions like "the South" and "the Midwest" are far too diverse among themselves to be considered one homogeneous institute.

Not to mention California--which is an extremely agrarian state with a very large old-school conservative population base and only 2 very liberal--though highly-populated regions.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
How many times do we have to humiliate you and your gross ignorance on this matter? Freedom != Anarchy. In fact, the primary requirement for any stable society, be it libertarian or totalitarian, is the rule of law.

Actually, you're wrong, Spanish Anarcho-syndicalists had a functioning society without government. The very fact that you need a minimal level of government for capitalism to work kinda tells you something about how unnatural capitalism really is.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
How many times do we have to humiliate you and your gross ignorance on this matter? Freedom != Anarchy. In fact, the primary requirement for any stable society, be it libertarian or totalitarian, is the rule of law.
As a rule, gross ignorance is surprisingly hard to humiliate.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Well, with it 1/4 down I can say this: it's definitely the work of a journalist making a social commentary. There's still a lot of truth, if badly dated truth. However it's not what I was hoping to find. Still, it's been a good read so far. Most people would probably enjoy it more than they would a theoretical political treatise on the subject, for all its human interest stories and asides.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
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Another interesting thing I found...before me the book hasn't been checked out since 1994. That's REALLY surprisingly sad to me. We're talking about a book discussing what I consider a fulcrum issue, and not one other person out of all the local college students or county public has taken an interest??? No wonder this country is in the shitter.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Could we in the North, then declare war on the South?

I suspect that unlike the last time you did that you would find us much harder to win against. We now have the most modern auto plants in the country along with other industies, along with likely control of large portions of the current US military.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Another interesting thing I found...before me the book hasn't been checked out since 1994. That's REALLY surprisingly sad to me. We're talking about a book discussing what I consider a fulcrum issue, and not one other person out of all the local college students or county public has taken an interest??? No wonder this country is in the shitter.

You're sure they didn't switch to electronic checkout in the 90s?

Otherwise that would be kind of sad...

Also: I always like looking at the cards to see who had a book before I did. t doesn't really work like that anymore.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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You're sure they didn't switch to electronic checkout in the 90s?

Otherwise that would be kind of sad...

Also: I always like looking at the cards to see who had a book before I did. t doesn't really work like that anymore.

Every book still gets the written or stamped due date in it, and the last one was 94.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
It was cheaper before Bush decided to rape Afghanistan and the middle east after the government he was supposed to be in control of coincidentally let 9/11 happen like they didn't know it was going to, so his cronies could pump more of your money into the military industrial complex, while giving his buddies that own corporations tax breaks for outsourcing more jobs overseas so the shares of their own companies would go up from more profit by using cheaper labor, while letting Wall Street speculate on commodities like oil that caused gas to go from $1.66 a gallon in 2004, to over $2 then $3+ a gallon after using Hurricane Katrina as an excuse to gouge everyone, and letting the oil companies & Wall St. continue to gouge everyone just like the banks were allowed to gouge anyone who wanted a loan until the whole economy crashed worldwide and then the oil companies temporarily bring back gas prices down to what they were right after Hurricane Katrina like that's going to help.

I have to quote my own post on behalf of the world community and say "we told you so" in regards to electing Bush in 2004 and not revolting in 2000 repealing the electoral college. Karma's a bitch.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Is the bumper sticker term of liberty changing again this week? Don't tread on Koch bros maybe? I never could keep up with the think tank libertarian zombie realms official liberty definitions.

Actually, I thought it was Don't tread on George Soros.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
I have to quote my own post on behalf of the world community and say "we told you so" in regards to electing Bush in 2004 and not revolting in 2000 repealing the electoral college. Karma's a bitch.

You're quoting your own post which is wrong, overblown, skewed, and/or out of context depending on which part one looks at?

Cool.

Chuck
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
That depends really. Is it Truth, or is it "Truth"? Basically your whole post is one big "", so why would it hurt?
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
That depends really. Is it Truth, or is it &quot;Truth&quot;? Basically your whole post is one big &quot;&quot;, so why would it hurt?

Look, I'm not here to argue with your petty indifference about how the guy you most likely voted for, practically destroyed this country. I know it's a hard fact to swallow, but it's not my fault.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Look, I'm not here to argue with your petty indifference about how the guy you most likely voted for, practically destroyed this country. I know it's a hard fact to swallow, but it's not my fault.

Mmmm...interesting. Tell me/us, you don't happen to be neighbors with someone called 'The Green Bean' or 'Craig234' aka '"Save"234' aka 'Socialist234', do you?

Just wonderin.....

Chuck
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
Here's a few assumptions:
- people basically want good government that reflects their views. To libertarians, this might mean a small, unobtrusive government, low taxes, gun rights etc. To leftists, this might mean a proactive government that regulates the market for abuses, provides universal healthcare etc.
- governments are very different beasts depending on the size and homogeneity of the population - China's central government is nothing like Iceland's.
- Governments of smaller populations are inherently more accountable, legitimate and represent the views of the population better
- Governments of homogeneous populations would better reflect the population's views, since there is more likely to be some kind of broad consensus.


So if you agree with those, the question then is: would you give up the US/Canada if it meant increased liberties? The idea is that splitting up the US/Canada into a bunch of large countries that group people with shared views and history and produce local governments that reflect the views of the population much better.

Here is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

Another possibility is something like:

1. New England + Maritimes
2. Great Lakes region (Washington, new york, toronto, and chicago)
3. Midwest + Canadian prairies
4. The South
5. Texas and the south west
6. Pacific coast (California to BC)
7. Quebec
8. The North (Alaska, NWT, northern parts of Canadian prairie provinces)

Assume each of these combines into a septate country (and currency), but that multiple citizenships are allowed, borders are minimal (like the US-Canada border) and there is free trade between all the countries.

If all this meant you could live in a country that reflects your views, would you be up for it? For example west-coast leftists would get universal healthcare, strong environmental laws, etc while Texas libertarians would get all the guns they want, a tiny government and very low taxes, etc.

Split up the US and Canada to satisfy 400 Libertarians? Okay maybe 1000 liberatarians? No
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
Split up the US and Canada to satisfy 400 Libertarians? Okay maybe 1000 liberatarians? No

I say give the USA back to the French, Spaniards, Dutch, English, and give Texas to the Germans, and laugh at the Mexicans. Let the native Americans have Oklahoma and New Mexico, while we're giving stuff back.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
I say give the USA back to the French, Spaniards, Dutch, English, and give Texas to the Germans, and laugh at the Mexicans. Let the native Americans have Oklahoma and New Mexico, while we're giving stuff back.

Why?
 
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