Would you trade a 6800 Ultra for a X850 XTPE ?

[Munky]

Budget is the main reason why I don't like SLI - it costs too much. And yes, you could buy one SLI card now, and another one later at a cheaper price, but AFAIK the two cards have to be identical, so you'll be stuck with older cards if you wait for prices to drop.

Graphics hardware improves at such a fast pace that I would not want to shell out the money for 2 cards, only to have to be outclassed by 1 next-gen card. Think back, if you would have spent a grand on 2 gf5900 cards when those came out, and then next year the gf6800 makes your cards look ancient by comparison. If you've got a lot of extra cash lying around, then you just repeat the process this year, but I'd rather spend money on other things, and a single decent card will do the trick for now.

 

[Genx87]

That's totally different. You're talking about all the extra drivers necessary for AIW functionality, not just regular 2D/3D video drivers.

Why would I get an AIW just to display my desktop and play games?
It is a problems with their driver that is just up and fails to load when called.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: dworley
I agree with Housecat! I have bought and tried the X800XL and then an X850XT in my SLI rig since I mostly play CS:S. (I had planned on building out a Shuttle with one of the ATI cards just to play CS:S) What I found is that when playing online in 30 player office or 24 player Dust matches the framerate was averaging significantly less and had worse slowdowns with the ATI cards. Keep in mind I was trying to run 1600x1200 at High details and 2x/4x, even after backing down most of the settings I was still getting dips to 30-40 fps during some heavy action or just starting out from spawn!

After reading all the hype and online benchmarks one would think that the ATI cards had an advantage in Source games comparable to SLI. To compare my results I ran one of the 6800GT's in single GPU mode and got results on par with the X850XT, however not as severe as a dip in framerate under heavy action. Note that I do run my 6800GT's at 420/110 (Ultra Speeds) which is another big factor in why I like the 6800GT's since they overclock so well! (Both of my 6800GT PCI-E's would overclock to a max of 440/115 on air cooling with an NV5 Silencer)

Housecat - would like to get some more details of your success with running your Widescreen monitor. Which monitor, resolution, games? Analog or DVI I have a Dell 20005FPW and (2)6800GT SLI and have the problem with the screen "jitters" when running any widescreen 16:10 aspect reolutions with DVI (tried all recent leaked beta drivers)

Sure! I'd be more than happy to assist.

I use the latest official release from Nvidia, as they overall work the best and most stable for me. I have tried all the betas, and while I decided years ago that I prefered to stick with official releases, I have found more reasons to stick with this logic.

On your widescreen jitters, there are 2 workarounds I've found
1. Run the game in a window. My prefered method as there is no real loss of anything this way, you simply run 1680x1050 in a window... quite simply a great workaround.
Certainly nothign to complain about doing it this way at least.

2. Use the analog connection. This method while it allows you to run fullscreen.. makes the quality on my LCD to be considerably worse while in Windows. Its bad enough that I cannot stand it after using DVI for so long.



The root of this issue to my knowledge is that NV software engineers did not account for the more uncommon widescreen DVI resolutions that are in the upper range like 1680x1050.

It is really not a serious issue, and SHOULD be fixed in the next release.

Basically, I think its a timing issue. I've tried to find the correct setting within the advanced properties for 1680x1050 but I dont know enough about DVI timings to do this correctly.
I just run the DVI and go 1680x1050 in a window, which covers the entire screen anyway!



This "jitter" problem is the only problem I've found with SLI at all. So I'm pleasantly surprised and completely satisfied as you are. But I hope I've helped explain the jitter problem.

I have the same experience on my friends X800XT in CSS as you did. They do not maintain as good as playing experience as the NV cards.

Which is a testament to NV as you know CSS is not optimized for NV for sure. The current Radeon technology is at its wits end, and its time its retired.
The X series has been a relatively bad buy in comparison to the GF6 line.
You need some type of SLI and SM3 to have a competitive product, or at least need to blow the GF6 line out of the water (in all its incarnations, 6800 Ultra and the SLI rigs), which nothing can do.

You've (dworley) seen that for yourself as I have.
6800GT/Ultra > X800/X850
Which is why I recommend to the OP to stick with the Ultra.
Very solid product from performance to feature base.

The only way I could recommend ATI now is if someone had a specific use that was ATI's niche.. but what is that?
OpenGL support? NV now has OGL 2 support with the 75series driver, and overall exceptional support in this department.
Multimonitor? NV
64bit support? NV
Linux support? NV
DX support? Its about a draw here.

The only thing I can think of is TV Output, ATI might be better in this department. They are in my experience at least.
My experience in gaming, at least in the worlds premier online game (CSS) NV leads in that department for real world playability. And you dont even have the option to get those horrid .Net drivers.
You will also notice that Nvidia seems to have optimized very well for the WXP GUI, if you drag a window around really fast with any NV accelerator, from a GF1 to GF6 it does not lag nearly as much as with a ATI accelerator.

This lack of acceleration from the ATI drivers in the GUI effects my productivity, and I cant have that.

Anyway, like you dworley, I've found what works best for me in most computing situations. I'm loving my NV SLI.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Temporal AA and PS2.0b will not make the card last longer. Temporal AA only comes in play with VSYNC on and while frames are over 60fps. Do you really think that about 6 months down the road you are going to have that luxury. 3dc has yet to be seen but the Geforce 6 series supports it as well. You are comparing a 6800U here and you list PS2.0b as a feature for the X800 and say "DO you want to miss out on this?". THat really makes no sense what so ever as the Geforce 6 series has SM (Including PS) 3.0.

ALL the reviewers have alrady established that blowing air out of the case like that does nothing for temperatures. Maybe 1-2C for the case but absolutely nothing for the card. There is no advantage so dont make it out like there is one.

Quiet does matter to me otherwise i wouldn't be running 4x Panaflo 12L's at 1/3 speed and a 92mm Panaflo (CPU) at 1/3 speed as well as a nice quiet OCZ Powerstream. The fact is you cannot compare quietness. ATI manf their own cards, Nvidia does not they rely on manf. How would you compare the two?

Why are you asking me if i am trying to dodge questions when you cant even quote them right. I said 350-400, back then there were a few specials on PCI-E 6800GT's. Now the lowest price could find is Link. However when did i say PCI-E. If he is going SLI obviously he needs PCI-E support. However, if he wants a single card there is no need for PCI-E,
Link
Link

If he goes SLI, expect to spend about 800-900 dollars. If he goes single and doesn't want SLI he could go for 350.

WHy dont you respond to my first post where i gave my whole stance on this situation and provided evidence. Everything is explained there.

-Kevin

It doesnt matter what you think. He said the x850 cards have a "2002 feature set". Which is wrong, as it has features I pointed out, that were not around in 2002. As I said, it doesnt matter if you think they are good, the fact is, they are newer than 2002.

Still waiting on the $350 link, for the PCI-E 6800GT. YOu say people can do it now, where is the link.

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Yep, then I'd sell it, buy another 6800 Ultra, and pocket the difference.

What? X850XT/PE's are cheaper than a 6800 Ultra. Your post makes no sense.

oh my god....

The X850XT is at LEAST $50 cheaper than the cheapest Ultra.

Even newegg has has the X850XT for $469.

 

[rbV5]

You need some type of SLI and SM3 to have a competitive product

Why?

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: rbV5

You need some type of SLI and SM3 to have a competitive product

Why?

com·pet·i·tive Audio pronunciation of "competitive" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-pt-tv)
adj.

1. Of, involving, or determined by competition: competitive games.

Because competiveness is determined by the competition. In this case: NVIDIA.

Nvidia (the competitor) has SLI and SM3. Things that people want (to at least some degree), and things that ATI desires as well.

Therefore, ATI needs SLI and SM3 to remain competitive, which is why they are implementing both on their own product very soon.

They realize their product is not competitive enough with Nvidias, why do you not understand it as well?
If it was competitive enough, and SLI/SM3 wasnt needed, they wouldnt waste money on R&D.. its simple economics.
And it was competitive, until the NV40 was released. Now ATI is scrambling to get something out the door with SLI/SM3, in the meanwhile the ATi fanboys are working the forums hard to downplay these advantages NV enjoys today.


The only thing left for naysayers is to downplay SM3 and SLI until they have it on their product of choice. This has been done for a long time in capitalism, and the only way to survive the times that dont favor you.
Thats why we get arguments like "SLI is dumbzorz" and "SM3 is only the future.. er I mean, not useful enough today" and other nonsensical arguements.

Its typical, expected, and easy to rebut.

 

[rbV5]

Because competition is determined by the competition. In this case: NVIDIA.

In the real world, Value plays a large role in how competitive a product is. Neither SM3.0 nor SLI bring a very good price/performance value to the table currently, so they don't provide a compelling competitive product of themselves. So they certainly aren't "needed" for a competitive product. I suppose the 6800 Ultra AGP is not a "competitive" part either :roll:

I'd say ATI is far more concerned with getting some of their new cards in AGP than working on AMR....what does that tell you?

6800 Ultra for X850 XTPE isn't a bad trade either.

 

[housecat]

Of course a 6800 Ultra AGP is competitive versus the ATI parts. ATI has no shader model 3.0.
As far as value, a 6800GT has been a great value for some time now.

Getting the most for your money doesnt count in your definition of value? I'd say getting SM3 and SLI capability is a better value than not getting it. Esp considering performance between the two lines seems to lean towards Nvidia. DX its pretty close, and OGL games are a hands down winner.
At least for those of us who have actually used both of them, rather than stay dedicated to ATI only.
And dworley and myself can attest to that.

X850XT PE is mostly hype, its really not more than a X800XT PE. Its just actually available. Which is the first starting point for "value".

 

[hans030390]

KEEP THE 6800!!! a x850 will NOT run next generation games well because it only uses Shader Model 2.0!!! all the 6xxx series use SM3.0, which not only looks ALOT nicer, but isnt as taxing as SM2.0...

i dont care how well an x850 performs now, but it is going to look worse and perform worse on upcoming games

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: hans030390
KEEP THE 6800!!! a x850 will NOT run next generation games well because it only uses Shader Model 2.0!!! all the 6xxx series use SM3.0, which not only looks ALOT nicer, but isnt as taxing as SM2.0...

i dont care how well an x850 performs now, but it is going to look worse and perform worse on upcoming games

It might perform well now. But not only do we not definitely know the future of SM2, but it doesnt outpace the equivalent NV card.
X800/X850 (same thing), is not > than 6800 Ultra in real world gaming.

The 6600GT, 6800GT/Ultra are EXTREMELY solid products.
Which is why NV didnt need 10,000 revisions (XL/XT PE/XT Platinum Uber Edition) to remain competitive.

Cards like the X850 and X800XL were REACTIVE measures, not proactive. Which is a telling tale to what ATI thinks of their own product lines.

 

[rbV5]

Of course a 6800 Ultra AGP is competitive versus the ATI parts. ATI has no shader model 3.0.

That may play out to be true, but that catch-phrase has gotten some real mileage don't you think?

As far as value, I have yet to see a X800XL@$300.. while a 6800GT has been a great value for some time now.

PCIe 6800GT's sure haven't such a great value for "some time now". You'll see an X800 XL soon, I know mine shipped, and I got it below MSRP, and you can walk in and pick one up at some CompUSA's as well. Hopefully, they will continue to be plentiful so that it will drop some other card prices in line as well.

X850XT PE is mostly hype, its really not more than a X800XT PE. Its just actually available. Which is the first starting point for "value".

Its a "real" card, with "real" serious performance. X800 XT PE is also available and instock @ MSRP, in fact AIW X800XT cards are also ~ MSRP available and in-stock now.

(Now if some more RS480 motherboards would hit the shelves)

 

[rbV5]

The 6600GT, 6800GT/Ultra are EXTREMELY solid products.
Which is why NV didnt need 10,000 revisions (XL/XT PE/XT Platinum Uber Edition) to remain competitive.
.

The NV40 6800 cards are broken, Nvidia just refused to revise them to fix them...just keep shippin' 'em out

Apparently you missed all the odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards over the past several months as well.

 

[housecat]

Its a "real" card, with "real" serious performance.

This is just wierd. Hmm.. well I guess its nice they might actually become REALLY available!
Its just a shame their update didnt include SLI or SM3 to really make a competitive product.
But available is good.

The NV40 6800 cards are broken, Nvidia just refused to revise them to fix them...just keep shippin' 'em out

Whats broken on my card? Does it lack any features a ATI card has? Because ATi has no purevideo either! I have MPEG acceleration at least on my cards, just missing WMV HD. But I dont know any ATI card which does either of those.

Apparently you missed all the odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards over the past several months as well.

What odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards?
We got the 6800NU (there has always been a plain jane card like this), the GT and the Ultra.

I dont know if you are referring to the 6800GTOC from Dell, but that doesnt nearly account for a "odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards" as you claim.

BTW why do you want the RS480, dont you know the Nforce4 is king?
Or does that hurt ya a bit to run a NF4 with yer brand spankin new ATI video card? LOL

 

[rbV5]

I have MPEG acceleration at least on my cards, just missing WMV HD. But I dont know any ATI card which does either of those.

You're just misinformed..

The 6800 VP is missing "far more" than simply WMV HD<--I'm assuming you mean WMV encode/decode acceleration.

ATI cards have featured MPEG decode acceleration from the Rage days, as a matter of fact, my AIW 9700pro has virtually the same CPU utilization using ATI Catalyst drivers, NVDVD decoders and WMP10 with hardware acceleration enabled as my eVGA 6800 standard with Purevideo enabled Forceware drivers....Hmmmm, what does that tell YOU?. As a matter of fact, there may be more suprises when MS releases the patch to enable WMV acceleration in WMP10


I'm reading Anand's SLI roundup right now, and some of those results are very impressive, while at the same time, it still looks like mostly a money furnace realistically.

 

[rbV5]

BTW why do you want the RS480, dont you know the Nforce4 is king? Or does that hurt ya a bit to run a NF4 with yer brand spankin new ATI video card? LOL

The ATI chipset has far better onboard graphics. I'll be dropping my X800 XL in it temp until a better PCIe boards come out, and the MSI RS480M2-IL will be perfect for my MCE HTPC after that.

I've been running NF2 motherboards for sometime now, with both my Nvidia and ATI video cards. NF2 aren't exactly perfect as you know, but they've been decent platforms for my rigs.

What odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards?
We got the 6800NU (there has always been a plain jane card like this), the GT and the Ultra.

I have a 6800NU myself and I've seen plenty of 6800 cards in different configurations, Le models OEM, Le models on an Ultra PCB, NU with 256 MB DDR...on and on.

 

[housecat]

ATI cards have featured MPEG decode acceleration from the Rage days,

Encode? Didnt think so. I have that.

The 6800 VP is missing "far more" than simply WMV HD

Enlighten me then.

As a matter of fact, there may be more suprises when MS releases the patch to enable WMV acceleration in WMP10

Ya, and it will do absolutely nothing for ATI cards.. so NV can only get a boost from it.

it still looks like mostly a money furnace realistically.

I guess. If you dont work hard enough, or dont work fulltime, it might be out of your league. Most people that want it can afford it.

For me, nothing else can offer the same level of performance. I wanted high res CSS/Doom3 with high AA/AF levels, nothing does this better than SLI.
I'm definitely going for dual NV50s when they are released, I doubt a single ATI card will match it then either.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: rbV5

BTW why do you want the RS480, dont you know the Nforce4 is king? Or does that hurt ya a bit to run a NF4 with yer brand spankin new ATI video card? LOL

The ATI chipset has far better onboard graphics. I'll be dropping my X800 XL in it temp until a better PCIe boards come out, and the MSI RS480M2-IL will be perfect for my MCE HTPC after that.

I've been running NF2 motherboards for sometime now, with both my Nvidia and ATI video cards. NF2 aren't exactly perfect as you know, but they've been decent platforms for my rigs.

What odd assortment of 6800 flavored cards?
We got the 6800NU (there has always been a plain jane card like this), the GT and the Ultra.

I have a 6800NU myself and I've seen plenty of 6800 cards in different configurations, Le models OEM, Le models on an Ultra PCB, NU with 256 MB DDR...on and on.

Why do you care about onboard graphics? The "horrid flaws" you find in the Nforce 2-4 boards might be slight compared to what you might experience to get that "killer" onboard GPU.. Nforces are tried and true in comparison.

 

[rbV5]

Encode? Didnt think so. I have that.

Actually, the AIW 9700pro was the first ATI card to offer hardware assisted MPEG "encoding" Link, it's somewhat limited, but ATI has offered advanced multimedia features like hardware filtering, adaptive de-interlacing for a couple generations now. You say "your card" has "encoding", care to illustrate how exactly its working for you (or anybody) MPEG encoding acceleration is certainly not working on my 6800 card.

Why do you care about onboard graphics? The "horrid flaws" you find in the Nforce 2-4 boards might be slight compared to what you might experience to get that "killer" onboard GPU.. Nforces are tried and true in comparison.

Where did I say horrid flaws? Are you saying Nforce2 is perfect? I don't recall commenting on NF4 at all. The onboard graphics are important to my HTPC and some SFF rigs I need to put together over the next couple months, the MSI board may turn out to be a winner for simple SFF MCE rigs...we'll see.

 

[Ackmed]

I fid it funny that housecat says SLI works fine on a WS LCD. When in fact, it doenst.

Running a game in window mode, and using analog (downgrading) is not a trade-off I, and others are willing to make. They need to get off their @ss's and fix the problem.

Gamingphreek, STILL waiting on that $350 PCI-E 6800GT link. If you dont have one, stop saying you can do 2x6800GT's in SLI for $700. You cant.

Your reason that you cant compare noise because NV doesnt make their own cards is just silly. ATi doesnt make all of their cards either. The fact is, the X850XT is quieter.

Looks like the 6800U loses in this poll, badly.

 

[rbV5]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 6800 VP is missing "far more" than simply WMV HD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Enlighten me then.
:

run through these...see anything missing?
Link
*Mpeg encoding
*Divx Encode/decode
*Mpeg-4 encode/decode
*Programmable?

Considering the results of my MPEG decode testing, I'm not so sure the VP is doing much there either since my AIW's 3D pipeline do every bit as good with no VP at all using the same software.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a matter of fact, there may be more suprises when MS releases the patch to enable WMV acceleration in WMP10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ya, and it will do absolutely nothing for ATI cards.. so NV can only get a boost from it.
:

So, we can then mark you down as "MS is releasing the patch only for Nvidia"...well, you "might" be right, we'll have to revisit that when the time comes....it is coming ? right?

I guess. If you dont work hard enough, or dont work fulltime, it might be out of your league. Most people that want it can afford it.

You have an unusual view of todays world. I put in 80 hour workweeks as a professional with a decent salary with a mortage and a family. I have my priorities straight.

 

[rbV5]

I'm definitely going for dual NV50s when they are released, I doubt a single ATI card will match it then either.

At least NV has you buying 2 highend cards at once now, so in that repect, its a big success

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: rbV5

I'm definitely going for dual NV50s when they are released, I doubt a single ATI card will match it then either.

At least NV has you buying 2 highend cards at once now, so in that repect, its a big success

Actually, it is.

I get what I want: the fastest performance that no ATI card can match.
They get: my money.

I have higher standards than you. Why is this a problem?

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I fid it funny that housecat says SLI works fine on a WS LCD. When in fact, it doenst.

Running a game in window mode, and using analog (downgrading) is not a trade-off I, and others are willing to make. They need to get off their @ss's and fix the problem.

Gamingphreek, STILL waiting on that $350 PCI-E 6800GT link. If you dont have one, stop saying you can do 2x6800GT's in SLI for $700. You cant.

Your reason that you cant compare noise because NV doesnt make their own cards is just silly. ATi doesnt make all of their cards either. The fact is, the X850XT is quieter.

Looks like the 6800U loses in this poll, badly.

Wow you cant read. I thought I said it does work fine, with 2 known workarounds. And even a possible fix for those who understand timings better than I do.

Why do you care ackmed? You dont like Nvidia, and wont buy nvidia.

If someone wants bleeding edge hardware that blows your ATI out of the water, SLI works fine.

Like ATI has no bugs.
Actually its not bugs, they just are incredibly slow at adding features...

still waiting on SM3, still waiting for SLI, still waiting for decent GUI acceleration, still watiting for decent multimonitor support, stil waiting for decent 64bit drivers, still waiting for decent linux drivers...

ya, ATI is bug free, i'll give you that.. they just dont do half the stuff an Nvidia does.

They do have better .Net driver support! WOOT

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I fid it funny that housecat says SLI works fine on a WS LCD. When in fact, it doenst.

Running a game in window mode, and using analog (downgrading) is not a trade-off I, and others are willing to make. They need to get off their @ss's and fix the problem.

Gamingphreek, STILL waiting on that $350 PCI-E 6800GT link. If you dont have one, stop saying you can do 2x6800GT's in SLI for $700. You cant.

Your reason that you cant compare noise because NV doesnt make their own cards is just silly. ATi doesnt make all of their cards either. The fact is, the X850XT is quieter.

Looks like the 6800U loses in this poll, badly.

Just because you dont seem to have a life doesn't mean others dont as well. I was at work, i dont slave over my computer 24/7 waiting to reply to everything Ackmed says.

Now you obviously are not reading as you go. I did indeed retract my statement and provide a full explanation. The X850 is not quieter than the 6800. What two cards are you comparing here. We cannot compare an entire generation of completely different cards. You pick out 2 cards (1 Nvidia, and 1 ATI) and well talk then.

6800U loses badly in this poll because people just stop in pick the faster of the 2 cards and leave. They dont bother to stop and think, like a lot of us are doing. You seem to be the definition of ATI fanboy Ackmed. You are providing no evidence whatsoever to credit the other side of the argument.

Housecat: you seem to have good intentions and strong feelings about that but it seems to be getting in the way of your posting. As rbv5 has said ATI has had encode/decode support for sometime now. They offload the tasks and use their extremely well refined pixel shader tech to provide HW acceleration. As for the patch from MS, we dont know but it is believed to be for Nvidia only.

As for the "horrid" flaws you speak of please inform us what those might be. Last i checked everything seems to be going smoothly.

Lastly, although a little slanted your ideas were, you went and flamed rbv5 bringing up his work which had nothing to do with anything. Keep to the discussion and people will be fine debating with you and you gain a reputation as a good poster. Take my advice or leave it, but "thats how we roll here at AT "

-Kevin

 

[rbV5]

6800U loses badly in this poll because people just stop in pick the faster of the 2 cards and leave.

Isn't that the idea though? Its a pretty simple question. It doesn't take a personal crusade, or insults to prove your point here, however some of it is very entertaining

I have higher standards than you. Why is this a problem?

Of course you do, LOL