WoW arenas....how lame.

[RiDE]

Originally posted by: jhbball
Bad players typically don't like arenas.

Unless they've got a resto druid in the team. jk

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: jhbball
Bad players typically don't like arenas.

ive played and led teams in all backets up to and past 2K, arena is a joke, its boring and in generaly not fun, and it IMO is the single biggest issue with wow currently

 

[Aikouka]

I think people that come from a FPS background will instantly find problems with Arena (and really all PVP in WoW), because in FPS it's a bit more skill than equipment that defines you, but in WoW, to even get that competing equipment, you have to spend a ton of time in mind-numbing, impossible situations where you literally just /pray for a swift death so you can rez and die again.

Also, the concept of purposely losing (playing for tokens)... well, that started with the removal of the honor ranking system. Prior to that, you didn't always want to lose... especially since for awhile, you didn't get a token when you lost. I think that honestly, they made need to adjust how you get a losing token since they've effectively separate premades from PUGs, you can say that you must get "x" before you can have a token. The only problem you may find is that sometimes it's hard to specify what that is.. well, at least for WSG I think. Or perhaps something they should do is adjust the number of tokens you get based on how close to winning you were. Don't you hate those BGs where you're 1950 to 2000 and you literally only needed one more base for 20 seconds to win?

Also, the concept of "playing for tokens" is by far the most logical way to play. I'm not sure if you see it, but these players don't see PVP... they see a goal. They see a sword or a piece of armor or whatever and they know that frankly... no one does AB, EotS or WSG for the honor (unless you have a premade, in which AB is quite good for honor if you 5-cap). You see, with the removal of the ranking system and giving people tokens for losing, you tend to get people that realize "hey.. why should I spend 25 minutes here and probably lose anyway... I can lose in 5 minutes and get the same reward!" This is smart thinkin' here, Chalmers. Also, personally, I don't PVP to PVP... I PVP to get gear for PVE. The weapons are by far some of the best items that you can get.

EDIT:

Note that I enjoy real PVP... not the mind-numbing, boring, same-every-time BG crap. Also, there was a ton of world PVP like Oakenfield described back when everyone wanted to do the world bosses. Raids would wipe other raids on Lord Kazzak and Azuregos... unfortunately, it didn't take much skill to wipe a raid on Kazzak, but in that case, you had to be smart and have people on "Horde watch" (or alliance depending on your faction).

 

[Dangerer]

Arena takes a major amount of commitment to be enjoyable. It's really not for everyone, but for the most part all of the guildies I've ever had have been hard core pvp whores and embrace it fully. I've never ran much outside of overpowered PMR comps, lock/druid, war/druid comps so it was an easy trek to 2k and beyond. I've seen my buddy play 2v2 double mage and the dude was 2.2k rated last season. It was amazing watching how he could skillfully outplay pretty much any and every comp with his equally amazing partner. It really puts my generic war/druid team to shame.

 

[Drift3r]

I think the OP wants a PvP environment where killing the other guy matters and actually helps to achieve a goal in the game world that goes beyond the "I need to grind HK's to get that purple loot". Games like DAOC, EVE, and even Lineage 2 all have PvP that matter. I think this person wants PvP where you have more at stake then just having to jump into more arenas/bg's to gain that HK. IMHO WoW PvP is not at all hardcore unless you count sitting around at a computer as being hardcore. Note I am not saying there is no skill involved to be good at WoW pvp but there certainly isn't any risk vs reward going on in WoW or at least any that matters in the grand scheme of things. WoW pvp is pretty pointless IMHO but that is just how I view it. I don't see WoW pvp as being part of anything major in the game other then a time filler in between raids. You certainly are not effecting the game world in a major fashion if at all in WoW with the current forms major PvP to be found in that game.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Double DPS or I die of boredom. 3 DPS even!

 

[jhbball]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: jhbball
Bad players typically don't like arenas.

ive played and led teams in all backets up to and past 2K, arena is a joke, its boring and in generaly not fun, and it IMO is the single biggest issue with wow currently

I play 2300+ teams every season. I'm three-time gladiator. It's fun, if you play it competitively. 2k ratings are fine, but easy to attain. The most fun comes when you play serious matches against very good players. It's also a fun away to get some gear without wasting 30 hours a week in dungeons.

But I agree, the BG system is pretty mind numbing. There simply isn't enough variety. But this is a PVE game, so what do people expect.

 

[Xavier434]

If I was a PvPer I would have quit WoW a very long time ago. It is very rare that I have anything negative to say about the game and that is because I choose to avoid PvP. There are a lot of complaints out there about the PvP system and content in general. Some are true, some are false, some are exaggerated, some are not emphasized enough. Putting aside all of the endless debate, one core reason remains for me which is simply that I do not have enough fun participating in WoW PvP to justify my time which could be spent playing something else. The exception is World PvP which I do enjoy but unfortunately it doesn't happen much. I am hoping that changes in WotLK. That's just me though and I admit it doesn't make a whole lot of sense because one could just as easily argue that running the same dungeons over and over again isn't that much fun either, but for some reason I really enjoy that. *shrug*

 

[Beev]

Playing WoW with the sole intent of PvP'ing makes you a fool. The game isn't made for it, and it's not very good at it either. If you want to kill real players and not NPC mobs then go play Counterstrike. The WoW devs will never put more effort into PvP than PvE so PvP will always be less polished than every raid.

 

[TaylorTech]

Ok, this is what I was talking about when I said WoW players don't know what they are talking about.

Take this from someone who has seen almost all of the end-game content [3/6 SW] and holds a commander title from PvP before ranks were removed way back when.

First off:

PvP - PLAYER versus PLAYER

PvE - PLAYER versus ENVRIONMENT

Learn your acronyms.

PvP is where you engage non-NPC opponents, AKA other players. Originally this was where WoW was made so fun from. The ranks actually meant something, and the rewards at the time were just as equal to a lot of the raiding loot. And it's still as fun, and I am about as hardcore into raiding as you can get.

You are pretty much bashing people who PvP. Not all players can dedicate to raiding 20 hours a week. No raiding means no PvE loot, which means they can't progress into further content. But by no means does it make them bad players. I'm one of the best tanks I know, and I've talked to other players who PvP that could kick the snot out of me in tanking, they have the theorycraft of it and skill rotation down to an optimum usage, while they haven't even been past say Gruul's.

Don't judge a player because they like a different playstyle over another. Blizzard is trying to focus on PvE more just because that's where the majority of players are right now. But with Sunwell many have either just quit [like me] or decided to become casual and PvP or arena.

Now I personally think the arenas are very competitive. Some of the best players I've ever seen have been in arenas. You have a lot less time to think and react. And the people who have the gear that you always think to yourself "I want that" Well, they have earned it.

To be so ignorant as to say someone is a "Fool" for doing battlegrounds and arenas is just inspires awe in me that people can be so blatant.

I guess I'm a fool then, the INSTANT Warhammer Online is out I'm gone from WoW completely, and I can think of about 100 people I know that will be gone too.

WotLK is going to be even more of a disappointment than TBC.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
holds a commander title from PvP before ranks were removed way back when.

Titles were worthless back when you could easily hit GM or HW when you had a team to carry you.

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
the rewards at the time were just as equal to a lot of the raiding loot.

That was actually one of the biggest problems as the raid loot quickly surpassed PVP loot. They upgraded the sets and in doing so, screwed anyone with PVP1 as they had to PVP all over again to get the set. If you had PVP2, you were automatically upgraded. I definitely had an easier time PVPing on my rogue with tier loots than I did on my priest with the PVP gear... albeit two separate classes aren't necessarily an equivalent comparison, but my priest couldn't one-shot clothies .

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
WotLK is going to be even more of a disappointment than TBC.

I doubt it.

 

[TaylorTech]

Priests were meant to do nothing but heal pre-TBC, so says Blizzard. They weren't even recognized until D&T's 5 man of Loatheb, and that almost at the release of TBC, then they got UBER buffed. Not a fair comparison.

And the ranks did mean something, that's why they were taken away. I guarantee you getting the title of GM wasn't done without blood, sweat and tears. Hell I was commander and that felt like one of the biggest accomplishments I've ever made in WoW.

And you doubt what, that WotLK won't disappoint?

Every person and their brother is going straight to a DK, and then level them to 80 and realize it's not all they were cracked up to be. Then get pissed and either quit or QQ at Blizzard while leveling up their previous main to 80. And now they are behind guilds/people already getting epics from the first raid zone.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
holds a commander title from PvP before ranks were removed way back when.

Titles were worthless back when you could easily hit GM or HW when you had a team to carry you.

.

it really wasent that easy to simply carry someone

<- is a former rank 14 and had to seriously work at it

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
Priests were meant to do nothing but heal pre-TBC, so says Blizzard. They weren't even recognized until D&T's 5 man of Loatheb, and that almost at the release of TBC, then they got UBER buffed. Not a fair comparison.

And the ranks did mean something, that's why they were taken away. I guarantee you getting the title of GM wasn't done without blood, sweat and tears. Hell I was commander and that felt like one of the biggest accomplishments I've ever made in WoW.

And you doubt what, that WotLK won't disappoint?

Every person and their brother is going straight to a DK, and then level them to 80 and realize it's not all they were cracked up to be. Then get pissed and either quit or QQ at Blizzard while leveling up their previous main to 80. And now they are behind guilds/people already getting epics from the first raid zone.

I am very happy they took away ranks because it allows players that do not have a lot of time to play to feel accomplished for their PvP efforts. I rarely PvP because I do not have much fun doing it, but when the ranks were around I felt repulsed by it which is even worse. That's just me though. I can understand how the more hardcore pvp players might enjoy the ranking system more, but WoW does not cater to them and that's just the way it is.

What you say about WotLK is not going to be the case. DKs are very cool and they will be PvP viable, but I do not believe that there will be as many players switching to them and sticking with them as you think. All of the classes are changing way too much right now to make an accurate claim on such a thing. The people that end up doing what you describe are pretty dumb imo. Play the game to enjoy it for what it is. Blizzard doesn't care about your e-peen.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
Priests were meant to do nothing but heal pre-TBC, so says Blizzard. They weren't even recognized until D&T's 5 man of Loatheb, and that almost at the release of TBC, then they got UBER buffed. Not a fair comparison.

I could still beat quite a few people in a 1v1 or 1v2 situation. Of course, being alliance, I had to put up with undead ~_~. I loved people that rolled troll or orc rogues, they were so much easier to kill that I could just kinda sit around and go get a drink while they ran around feared (a bit exaggerated).

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
And the ranks did mean something, that's why they were taken away. I guarantee you getting the title of GM wasn't done without blood, sweat and tears. Hell I was commander and that felt like one of the biggest accomplishments I've ever made in WoW.

If you had a PVP group, all you had to do was meet your honor cap for the week and you were done. If you were in a group, you actually won... if not, you probably just lost all the time. I couldn't play without being boozed up spending 8-10 hours a day losing constantly because those fucking assholes wouldn't take me after I took standing 16 at rank 3 (I was grinding AV rep during AV weekend ). God, I really hated those times... worst off, all I wanted was R11 for my kitty. Instead I had to farm Darnassus rep... but nice enough, the old AV was good for that.

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
And you doubt what, that WotLK won't disappoint?

Yep... some won't like it, some will. Same happens. I'm probably one of the few that isn't disappointed with TBC. There are some aspects of it that I do not like (how the game turned into a huge rep grind-fest at 70 where there was really no such thing at 60) but all-in-all, I'm satisfied.

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
Every person and their brother is going straight to a DK, and then level them to 80 and realize it's not all they were cracked up to be. Then get pissed and either quit or QQ at Blizzard while leveling up their previous main to 80. And now they are behind guilds/people already getting epics from the first raid zone.

Good, I hope lots of people realize how bad they are and can't handle a class. It's not like the term huntard came from nowhere . Leaves more room for me to level mine. Although 55 in EPL? I'm going to have to relocate elsewhere... maybe starting in Un'Goro, but unfortunately, there's one quest line that makes you go to Un'Goro that starts in Tanaris (Bungle in the Jungle, Queen Takes Pawn), but I believe the opener is a 48 quest.

Originally posted by: Anubis
it really wasent that easy to simply carry someone

<- is a former rank 14 and had to seriously work at it

You honestly have no idea what things were like on Lightning's Blade. You didn't necessarily earn R14... you were given it. One guy got HWL simply because they used his vent. The guy was a terribad hunter that I easily destroyed on my shadow priest (with the shitty PVP1 blue set... the non-upgrade one at that). There was only one guy that I know of that got to R14 out of pure grinding without any real specific teams helping him and he spent a LOT of time PVPing. If you look at the lineage of HWL/GM, you will see that there are large clumps where they are all from the same team. Note that this info is available on wowwiki.

 

[TaylorTech]

Regardless of above statement, no matter how Blizzard changes the game that won't get rid of the fact that about 60% [rough estimate] of players either:

1. Just suck

2. Don't know proper skill rotations

3. Just suck.

4. Don't read boss strategies

5. Just suck

All in all, Blizzard is making it TOO easy to get loot and be like "Hey, I didn't work for this at all!"

 

[Anubis]

You honestly have no idea what things were like on Lightning's Blade. You didn't necessarily earn R14... you were given it. One guy got HWL simply because they used his vent. The guy was a terribad hunter that I easily destroyed on my shadow priest (with the shitty PVP1 blue set... the non-upgrade one at that). There was only one guy that I know of that got to R14 out of pure grinding without any real specific teams helping him and he spent a LOT of time PVPing. If you look at the lineage of HWL/GM, you will see that there are large clumps where they are all from the same team. Note that this info is available on wowwiki.

different on different servers and all that, we didnt carry anyone to the rank that sucked we didnt carry anyone really, everyone in our group worked pretty hard at it, and before the xrealm BGs you were facing the other factions PVP group 90% of the time and the games were fucking battles

as you were on LB you must know Ming lol

 

[Lamont Burns]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
holds a commander title from PvP before ranks were removed way back when.

Titles were worthless back when you could easily hit GM or HW when you had a team to carry you.

.

it really wasent that easy to simply carry someone

<- is a former rank 14 and had to seriously work at it

Depends on the situation. I ran to rank 12 before the timesink was too much, and helped lead a premade that churned out the first 7 HWLs on my server. We did indeed carry a terrible shaman or two to rank 14. We based it on seniority. We even put thresholds on the amount of honor you were allowed to gain per week, so that the top 10 players were in the right spots to gain ranks.

If you crossed that threshold, you were barred from the premade. Since our Horde faction was small, and mostly terrible, it was easy to put a stranglehold on it, as the other Horde premades were terrible, and we mostly won our matches. At a clip that outdid speed AV, once it took hold.

Of course, this was all prior to cross-server BGs, and the proliferation of AV.

/on topic: Arena is OK. In the 2k bracket it has a little more excitement, but not much. I am macro'd to all hell, and it's repetitive boredom after about 45 mins.

 

[TaylorTech]

Heheh, I remember when Horde would win AV's all day long pre-TBC. Then it was like suddenly Alliance got good

At least for Doomhammer it was that way.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Anubis
as you were on LB you must know Ming lol

Yep... never really got along with him. Was always too pompous (even for me!). I remember the one time I beat him in a duel (where I was combat and he was sub). Got a lot of whispers of congrats after that . Jerin and Wolfbiter were better rogues, but Ming just ran his mouth the most (and still does). The horde members of The Fallen Angels were probably the best PVPers on the server... I forget where they moved to though. I remember this one time when we were doing The Battle of Darrowshire and they kept interfering in the fight. Eventually we beat them off, but it took all 5+ of us to beat them... although we did also have NPC enemies to deal with. I remember "dueling" Cheese (undead priest) on my rogue and I think the best I could get him to was 50%... although I don't remember my spec. Cheese was also the undead priest featured in a Ming video or two.

On LB though, there were usually only 1-2 PVP groups running at a time. Usually it was only one main group, but I believe at one point, the Horde had two and they were a bit of rivals. But Lamont pretty much tells it like it was on LB.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
Heheh, I remember when Horde would win AV's all day long pre-TBC. Then it was like suddenly Alliance got good

At least for Doomhammer it was that way.

I think ours kind of went both ways, but during AV weekends, we tended to lose... a lot. All it took was a single horde leading the group and they usually roflstomped us. You saw any of the people from Timeless in there and it was probably a loss.

 

[Genx87]

I went up against Ming. Good player but would have loved to see him without 2x paladins attached to his ass.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I went up against Ming. Good player but would have loved to see him without 2x paladins attached to his ass.

he was good but not as good as he thinks he is/was. his team was very good however, somewhat glad we never faced them

i beat him when he did that 1.12 PTR duals video or whatever, every damn time, which is why i didnt make the video. rogue v rogue does come down to who gets the opener 90% of the time GG NE Racial

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Anubis
he was good but not as good as he thinks he is/was. his team was very good however, somewhat glad we never faced them

i beat him when he did that 1.12 PTR duals video or whatever, every damn time, which is why i didnt make the video. rogue v rogue does come down to who gets the opener 90% of the time GG NE Racial

Didn't humans have the ability to use perception while in stealth during that patch? Even without that, you could easily use it and then pop into stealth like some human rogues did. But any smart rogue just walks the other way from a Human at the start of a duel . I found it more amusing how he always did strange things like run around in AB unstealthed... and people would just DoT him up. What was really strange is how I saw a player with a name like his (Minge or something), looked like his character and was running around in AB unstealthed. He tried to take the farm, but I destroyed him on my undead rogue .

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Anubis
he was good but not as good as he thinks he is/was. his team was very good however, somewhat glad we never faced them

i beat him when he did that 1.12 PTR duals video or whatever, every damn time, which is why i didnt make the video. rogue v rogue does come down to who gets the opener 90% of the time GG NE Racial

Didn't humans have the ability to use perception while in stealth during that patch? Even without that, you could easily use it and then pop into stealth like some human rogues did. But any smart rogue just walks the other way from a Human at the start of a duel . I found it more amusing how he always did strange things like run around in AB unstealthed... and people would just DoT him up. What was really strange is how I saw a player with a name like his (Minge or something), looked like his character and was running around in AB unstealthed. He tried to take the farm, but I destroyed him on my undead rogue .

yea you just needed to outrange perception which was really easy with a mod that had cooldown timers and such

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
Regardless of above statement, no matter how Blizzard changes the game that won't get rid of the fact that about 60% [rough estimate] of players either:

1. Just suck

2. Don't know proper skill rotations

3. Just suck.

4. Don't read boss strategies

5. Just suck

All in all, Blizzard is making it TOO easy to get loot and be like "Hey, I didn't work for this at all!"

So basically what you are saying is that WoW is just like any other online game out there in terms of the average player's skill regardless of genre which has become popular.

Don't worry so much about people running around with good loot. Loot != skill and it takes skill to beat the hardest NPCs and the best PvP players. The bottom line is that the best players in the game still have the best loot in most cases. That plus this will change again in WotLK. The gear jump is not as drastic but it is still there. T6 quality loot will last until about 77. Badge loot and T5 will last until about 75.