WoW Expansion Shrinks Raids, Current Raiders Whine

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
That is true... We did Razorgore with 31. Difficult, but doable.

we cleared firemaw-chromag with 33 the other day

its no impossiable but its not exactly easy sailing

IMO the patch is a HUGE kick in the nuts to all raiders, first we get the instance cap nerf, so instead of 5-10 mad people cause they didnt get into the weeks raid there will be 20+ WOO FUN

2nd they gave each fraction the other fractions defining class IE Shamans/palys
i cant actually think of a stupider thing ever done by blizzard

now there are 9 classes compeating for 1/2 as many raid spots

 

[NiKeFiDO]

reading the WoW forums is NOT indicitive of how all ppl feel about the expansion.

I am nervous about what the expansion means, but I will either Quit wow if it sucks or do te new stuff if its fun.
mc/bwl/naxx will still be there @ expansion!

25 raid caps could be wierd - is it 25 tops in caverns of time???

 

[Boze]

Who knows what's gonna happen with this new expansion to be honest... I think a big problem is the psychological difference between casual players and raiders. Casual players generally get together and rely on their individual skill as a player to get them through DM, UBRS, whatever... raiders get together and rely on their collective skill, i.e., their ability to work together as a team (which has been tempered over months or even years) in order to get them through a raid dungeon.

I think because of this decreased amount of players, the casual players are thinking they can rely on their individual skills to get them through the content, when in reality, from everything I've been told from Blizzard developers and long-time friends that work in the company, teamwork is about to become even more essential than ever... then again that's all this game was ever based around, was teamwork... the best PVP teams work together, the best raiding guilds, work together... flawlessly... its because of this tight integration as a single functioning entity that they mow down every challenge in their way.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall anyone?

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: Anubis
IMO the patch is a HUGE kick in the nuts to all raiders, first we get the instance cap nerf, so instead of 5-10 mad people cause they didnt get into the weeks raid there will be 20+ WOO FUN

But doesn't that now mean that those 20 people can form their own raiding party? IMO, this really own "hurts" guilds that based their membership on the ability to form a 40 man raid. It's helps the majority of people that are guildless since they can now more easily form a raid party.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Anubis
IMO the patch is a HUGE kick in the nuts to all raiders, first we get the instance cap nerf, so instead of 5-10 mad people cause they didnt get into the weeks raid there will be 20+ WOO FUN

But doesn't that now mean that those 20 people can form their own raiding party? IMO, this really own "hurts" guilds that based their membership on the ability to form a 40 man raid. It's helps the majority of people that are guildless since they can now more easily form a raid party.

One word: Drama. What's more, 10 skilled level 60s who want to raid and are available on raid days at raid time, for each guild, simply don't exist. Especially hordeside. Oh, and then there are logistical concerns; the same ratio of classes that works in a 40man might not work in two side by side 25mans.

What's worse though is paladins coming to the horde. Unless shamans get a major review and are given added utility, we'll be as needed and powerful in PvE as rogues are, which is part of why I put my rogue on the shelf in the first place.

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Anubis
IMO the patch is a HUGE kick in the nuts to all raiders, first we get the instance cap nerf, so instead of 5-10 mad people cause they didnt get into the weeks raid there will be 20+ WOO FUN

But doesn't that now mean that those 20 people can form their own raiding party? IMO, this really own "hurts" guilds that based their membership on the ability to form a 40 man raid. It's helps the majority of people that are guildless since they can now more easily form a raid party.

One word: Drama. What's more, 10 skilled level 60s who want to raid and are available on raid days at raid time, for each guild, simply don't exist. Especially hordeside. Oh, and then there are logistical concerns; the same ratio of classes that works in a 40man might not work in two side by side 25mans.

What's worse though is paladins coming to the horde. Unless shamans get a major review and are given added utility, we'll be as needed and powerful in PvE as rogues are, which is part of why I put my rogue on the shelf in the first place.

I think too many people underestimate a good rogue in a raid. Their DPS can be insane...but there are just wayyy too many horrid ones that give them all a bad name.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Anubis
IMO the patch is a HUGE kick in the nuts to all raiders, first we get the instance cap nerf, so instead of 5-10 mad people cause they didnt get into the weeks raid there will be 20+ WOO FUN

But doesn't that now mean that those 20 people can form their own raiding party? IMO, this really own "hurts" guilds that based their membership on the ability to form a 40 man raid. It's helps the majority of people that are guildless since they can now more easily form a raid party.

One word: Drama. What's more, 10 skilled level 60s who want to raid and are available on raid days at raid time, for each guild, simply don't exist. Especially hordeside. Oh, and then there are logistical concerns; the same ratio of classes that works in a 40man might not work in two side by side 25mans.

What's worse though is paladins coming to the horde. Unless shamans get a major review and are given added utility, we'll be as needed and powerful in PvE as rogues are, which is part of why I put my rogue on the shelf in the first place.

I think too many people underestimate a good rogue in a raid. Their DPS can be insane...but there are just wayyy too many horrid ones that give them all a bad name.

I played one for a while, full tier 1 gear. I know how worthless the class is. Blizzard is trying to manipulate the playerbase to fit their raids rather than manipulating their raids to fit the playerbase. Thus popular classes get the piss nerfed out of them and unpopular classes get buffed into gods. Additionally, DPS has been homogenized in the name of PvP balance, since it plays such a vital role in that aspect of the game. Unfortunately this has helped strip DPS classes of their defining ability in PvE.

 

[Malladine]

Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

Originally Posted by ckGunslinger:
I'm going to lend you my Axe of Carriage Return. It has +15 to Coherency!

hahahahahahaha

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

 

[txrandom]

Raiding and the general grind is what made me quit WoW. You have to play for hours to get anything accomplished once you hit 60. Raids get dumb pretty quickly. Both times I quit I was in good raiding guilds Risen and then Rapture (both Alleria), raiding just got dumb.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: CKent
One word: Drama. What's more, 10 skilled level 60s who want to raid and are available on raid days at raid time, for each guild, simply don't exist. Especially hordeside. Oh, and then there are logistical concerns; the same ratio of classes that works in a 40man might not work in two side by side 25mans.

What's worse though is paladins coming to the horde. Unless shamans get a major review and are given added utility, we'll be as needed and powerful in PvE as rogues are, which is part of why I put my rogue on the shelf in the first place.

I guess I'm unclear on what you're saying. Are you saying there is less drama with a 25 man raid or that the whiners are just being drama queens? The ratio stuff is really a non-issue. People will quickly figure out the best arrangement to use.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: CKent
One word: Drama. What's more, 10 skilled level 60s who want to raid and are available on raid days at raid time, for each guild, simply don't exist. Especially hordeside. Oh, and then there are logistical concerns; the same ratio of classes that works in a 40man might not work in two side by side 25mans.

What's worse though is paladins coming to the horde. Unless shamans get a major review and are given added utility, we'll be as needed and powerful in PvE as rogues are, which is part of why I put my rogue on the shelf in the first place.

I guess I'm unclear on what you're saying. Are you saying there is less drama with a 25 man raid or that the whiners are just being drama queens? The ratio stuff is really a non-issue. People will quickly figure out the best arrangement to use.

It's a naive solution which wouldn't work for most guilds due to drama... if they could even get another 10 in the first place. Sure it'll eventually sort itself out, but in doing so there'll be a lot of turmoil and excess of some classes, lack of others. Regardless, the point of raiding is to work together to achieve a common goal, not to compete with one another - that's what PvP is for.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

Honestly, other than the world PvP gank factor Rogues have no role that cannot be replaced by another DPS class. I'm in a smaller horde guild now, and as a mage I'm looking at 314 spell power in blues and regularly out-DPSing all the Lobotimizer level weapon rogues. Although the weapon itself isn't Perditions Blade or anything, it should be a good indicator on how well a mage can do against fairly decently equipped rogues. I only have two epics on my mage, the ZG bracers and Sorcerers Gloves. Granted none may care, but I'm always top DPS in UBRS, ZG, and MC(when we run). From my days on my ally priest, it was *always* rogues followed by mages.

My guild is still rather small and we aren't opening up for DPS warriors yet, but if they wanted to it is not exactly a huge problem as you typically want all the warriors high on the hate list. Whereas the only thing I cannot account for are the rogues spec's. My spec is mostly for snares and roots. I leech off the winter's chill mages, but I'm not getting any shatter bonus as a result of my spec. Frankly I don't think that I want to get shatter for PvE, as I can easily chain 1700 crits and pull agro. Iceblock or not the mobs are still changing position and if I pull hate as a ranged class, I'm usually standing by support characters. Those around me most likely will not be able to enjoy the benefits of iceblock.

Frankly it's more or less the reverse situation as shaman are to pvp. In short fights shaman are amazing burst dps. Once you require them to drop totems through a fairly long fight they just don't have the mana pools to pull off what a paladin can accomplish.

I also dislike the pally/shaman crossover. What Blizzard is basically stating is that they refuse to address the PvE/PvP disparities and are throwing in the towel. For raiding, once paladins are given to the horde side, I expect that shaman numbers in raids will be reduced to *one*. Specifically one full resto, just to drop a mana tide for a healing group. For PvE there really isn't a comparision on blessings/seals compared to totems. It's just so lop-sided in that respect.

 

[Malladine]

well, i and everyone i know in my guild appreciate rogues on our raids

and on Shaman in raids: their totems are invaluable. Tremor for mag, mana tide always, windfury/grace of air/str of earth for massive dps boost. They are raid cement, filling in dps, healing and utility gaps resulting in a stronger raid group.

The crossover is kinda ******, i agree, but meh, it's not that big a deal really. It will feel less...well...just less not having unique classes though

On the bright side, alliance will feel what WSG and AB are like against paladins

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

Honestly, other than the world PvP gank factor Rogues have no role that cannot be replaced by another DPS class. I'm in a smaller horde guild now, and as a mage I'm looking at 314 spell power in blues and regularly out-DPSing all the Lobotimizer level weapon rogues. Although the weapon itself isn't Perditions Blade or anything, it should be a good indicator on how well a mage can do against fairly decently equipped rogues. I only have two epics on my mage, the ZG bracers and Sorcerers Gloves. Granted none may care, but I'm always top DPS in UBRS, ZG, and MC(when we run). From my days on my ally priest, it was *always* rogues followed by mages.

My guild is still rather small and we aren't opening up for DPS warriors yet, but if they wanted to it is not exactly a huge problem as you typically want all the warriors high on the hate list. Whereas the only thing I cannot account for are the rogues spec's. My spec is mostly for snares and roots. I leech off the winter's chill mages, but I'm not getting any shatter bonus as a result of my spec. Frankly I don't think that I want to get shatter for PvE, as I can easily chain 1700 crits and pull agro. Iceblock or not the mobs are still changing position and if I pull hate as a ranged class, I'm usually standing by support characters. Those around me most likely will not be able to enjoy the benefits of iceblock.

Frankly it's more or less the reverse situation as shaman are to pvp. In short fights shaman are amazing burst dps. Once you require them to drop totems through a fairly long fight they just don't have the mana pools to pull off what a paladin can accomplish.

I also dislike the pally/shaman crossover. What Blizzard is basically stating is that they refuse to address the PvE/PvP disparities and are throwing in the towel. For raiding, once paladins are given to the horde side, I expect that shaman numbers in raids will be reduced to *one*. Specifically one full resto, just to drop a mana tide for a healing group. For PvE there really isn't a comparision on blessings/seals compared to totems. It's just so lop-sided in that respect.

if you as a mage out DPS rogues, your rogues suck plain and simple

when i started raiding MC i was in all blues from 10-20 mans, maube 1 random ZG epic with a lobo and a heartseaker, thast was 6 months ago, i have NEVER been beaten in dps in any instance my guild as run, we clear MC in less then 3 hours and are up to Nef in BWL

im currently useing a Vis'Kag and a bruteblade 4/8 BF 1 NS 2 r12 PVP epics and i dominate mages in fill t1 with a mageblade or SOD, as well as furry wars with whatever weps they are useing, and hunters are a joke

the only way a mage will out damage a rogue is in a heavy AOE instance, which is why most people reset the meters after mag in MC because those corehound packs f things up

rogue = highest single target DPS there is, without pulling agro and getting pwnt in the face

 

[TGS]

In my alliance guild a brut blade carrying rogue was top dps as well. Though I'll never understand why meters would be reset after a given fight other than the fact rogues couldn't stand regularly losing to mages in overall dps. I find it silly as some fights mages are primarily doing decurse or crowd control, so it should even out.

I'm not saying rogues aren't great single target dps, but it requires you to spec for raids. A fury warrior with equal level gear can put up some impressive numbers. All while wearing plate and a significantly greater amount of hit points.

Of course if you reset the meters after every AoE fight, mage damage would look rather silly. As that's their nitch, AoE/Decurse/Crowd Control. They also have a solid damage capability at ranged. Though look at the rogue role, which is damage over anything else. If they aren't in the top five, what commentary do you get? "They suck" is repeatedly heard. If they don't bring enough damage to the table they aren't filling their slot to the potential they should.

Also full tier 1 means squat for mages. The damage bonuses for everything before tier 2 focuses on having a large mana pool, and a respectable amount of spirit. The tier 1 set *barely* has more damage than .5 for cripes sake. My blues have more overall damage, which is why I regularly outdps tier 1 mages. I have around 800 mana less than a tier 1 mage, so it's not a huge disparity for me. Between mana gems, celestial orb, evocation, and huddling around a sad mana spring totem I can easily do along fight without resorting to potions. The last time I was outdpsed by another mage was a mix of tier 1 and 2 gear with epic weapons and damage enchants. Although he outgeared me by a decent amount he was only hitting for around 50-70 more per frostbolt than my average.

Also, really getting sidelined here but again blessings and seals are cast before the fight. Shaman must drop totems continually through the fight using mana and casting time that a paladin would be using for heals. Also salvation is going on the rogues so they can push it even further.

 

[CKent]

Pretty lofty claim that 95% of the rogues in WoW suck... and what, the majority of people playing other classes just "don't suck" ? It's a tired, naive and simplistic argument, moreover it's wrong. Simply put, the rogue class is broken, intentionally and systematically so in an effort to balance PvP and class distribution.

 

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by: Boze
In other words, all Blizzard is really doing is changing the scale on which people raid. That's it.

I think that's a huge change.

Players leave their small guild for the uberguilds because of the scale required to raid. My now-disbanded guild sent people to every uberguild on the Horde side. I saw the same thing in the other small - medium size guilds that we cooperated with.

I agree that the "casual" player is headed for disappointment thinks that this will open endgame content up to them. The fact that huge chunks of scheduled time will still be required will still limit most working adults from participating.

Anyway, this change isn't enough to bring me back. Call me when they yank 80% of the mindless trash from the instances, and make the remaining 20% pose a real challenge. Until then, you can keep the hours and hours of trash clearing punctauted by short periods of entertaining boss fights.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: DirthNader
I think that's a huge change.

Players leave their small guild for the uberguilds because of the scale required to raid. My now-disbanded guild sent people to every uberguild on the Horde side. I saw the same thing in the other small - medium size guilds that we cooperated with.

I agree that the "casual" player is headed for disappointment thinks that this will open endgame content up to them. The fact that huge chunks of scheduled time will still be required will still limit most working adults from participating.

Well, I doubt anyone is under the illusion that raids will take less time. But smaller raid parties should allow for more raid parties to be put together.

And, honestly, the guildies would be whining no matter what. Look at the whining going on right now... you have some whining because they feel like they need to lower their memberships and then you have some whining because they feel like they need to raise their memberships to create two raiding parties. So you have people whining for two reasons. No matter what the initial size of raid parties was and no matter which way Blizzard moved that number (up or down), guilds would still be whining. Some people just need to quit taking the game so seriously and realize the game isn't built exclusively for their guild.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

Playing an end game raiding rogue myself, let me interject. To say the class is "worthless" is hilarious, it makes me wonder if you've even played in an end game raiding guild before.

Mage DPS is much different than a rogue's, as you know it's AOE. On single targets, rogues are 10X more valuable, and on multiple Mages are 10X more than rogues. Mages simply CANNOT hang with rogues on single target DPS. In summary, you can't say overall one is more "valuable" than another because they have different functions and both are needed. Obviously rogues are going to take slightly more damage but a good rogue will minimize that with experience, for example by doing things such as recognizing/dodging cleaves and not standing in Rain of Fires.

Fury Warrior: The only single target mob they will do more than rogues is Patchwerk, and after the rogue review in 1.12 I highly doubt that will be the case.

95% of the time I own our Fury warrior with an AQRipper + Iblis, and he even has a better wep (Thunderfury b/c proc ignores armor on mobs). Gear is more or less equal. He dies approxiamately 75% more than me since he can't shed aggro... and since we have to pay our own repair bills I'm incredibly glad I didn't roll a fake rogue, err Fury Warrior. They suck up our healers mana by not shedding aggro and frankly, I don't think they add much utility to a raid as strict DPS. I can't tell you how many times we wiped in my old guild to Vael because they had 3 DPS Warriors that kept pulling aggro like idiots, while the rogues just vanish once and will never pull aggro.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: CKent
Totally agree Boze. This sort of crap is why I quit EQ and it's going to cause me to quit WoW as well, at some point. I actually do play a lot, but I'd rather have options available other than raiding, and I'd like to see new content if I'm not in the top 1% of raiders.

Well before you quit CKent, make sure you read about the new exciting PVP system they will have. It will be based on skill and earning points to buy epics, vs the current (crappy) ladder system which is a huge timesink. I think I'm most excited about the new PVP system with the expansion vice PVE.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Boze
Who knows what's gonna happen with this new expansion to be honest... I think a big problem is the psychological difference between casual players and raiders. Casual players generally get together and rely on their individual skill as a player to get them through DM, UBRS, whatever... raiders get together and rely on their collective skill, i.e., their ability to work together as a team (which has been tempered over months or even years) in order to get them through a raid dungeon.

I think because of this decreased amount of players, the casual players are thinking they can rely on their individual skills to get them through the content, when in reality, from everything I've been told from Blizzard developers and long-time friends that work in the company, teamwork is about to become even more essential than ever... then again that's all this game was ever based around, was teamwork... the best PVP teams work together, the best raiding guilds, work together... flawlessly... its because of this tight integration as a single functioning entity that they mow down every challenge in their way.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall anyone?

Boze I agree 100%, I think Blizzard lowered the number down as more of a marketing "ruse" to retain more of their casual player base. Psychologically, 25 or 20 is a lot more appealing to Joe Schmoe casual raider. It will take them a nice time investment to realize that they won't be able to beat 25 mans, and by that time Blizzard has already got their $$$. However, even though Joe can't successfully run the 25 man, he will probably stay because of the intriguing new PVP system based on individual skill (arena teams of 2, 5). I see this feature further drawing in casuals, and the 25 mans will still belong to the hardcores.

Also, what I do see happening is high end raiding guilds shrinking across the board slightly. More close knit smaller guilds will sprout up and gain a big presence in the WoW community. Current large guilds will either split or run double raids for the 25 mans and "compete" against the other Team which will be good for progress. Overall smaller raids should add more of a "closeness" between raid members and you will get to know people better. My .10

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

Playing an end game raiding rogue myself, let me interject. To say the class is "worthless" is hilarious, it makes me wonder if you've even played in an end game raiding guild before.

Mage DPS is much different than a rogue's, as you know it's AOE. On single targets, rogues are 10X more valuable, and on multiple Mages are 10X more than rogues. Mages simply CANNOT hang with rogues on single target DPS. In summary, you can't say overall one is more "valuable" than another because they have different functions and both are needed. Obviously rogues are going to take slightly more damage but a good rogue will minimize that with experience, for example by doing things such as recognizing/dodging cleaves and not standing in Rain of Fires.

Fury Warrior: The only single target mob they will do more than rogues is Patchwerk, and after the rogue review in 1.12 I highly doubt that will be the case.

95% of the time I own our Fury warrior with an AQRipper + Iblis, and he even has a better wep (Thunderfury b/c proc ignores armor on mobs). Gear is more or less equal. He dies approxiamately 75% more than me since he can't shed aggro... and since we have to pay our own repair bills I'm incredibly glad I didn't roll a fake rogue, err Fury Warrior. They suck up our healers mana by not shedding aggro and frankly, I don't think they add much utility to a raid as strict DPS. I can't tell you how many times we wiped in my old guild to Vael because they had 3 DPS Warriors that kept pulling aggro like idiots, while the rogues just vanish once and will never pull aggro.

I told myself things like this for a while. I was always #1 on the meters on my rogue. I read drivel on the forums about how any rogue not topping the meters "sucks". I read a post in the rogue forum detailing the math behind damage output and proving that fury warriors could outdamage rogue, which pretty much confirmed what I already knew; 95% of rogues don't suck - at least, not more than 95% of any other class. The average rogue, paying the average amount of attention, with the average gear in comparison to the rest of the raid, posessing the average amount of skill will not outdamage the average fury warrior or warlock in my experience, and will instead float around with the mages, maybe with the hunters. Sure, you can avoid cleaves. Rain of fire has an equal chance of hitting everyone though, so it doesn't really count. I was referring to stomps, PBAE spells and whirlwinds when I mentioned that. But damage isn't everything, there's always tanking, healing and utility to consider... none of which rogues have. But which classes that can match or surpass their damage do have.

I'm not putting down the class, please don't take it so personally. Indeed, I wasted many days /played on my own rogue. I'm just expressing disappointment in Blizzard for allowing this to come to pass.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: CKent
Totally agree Boze. This sort of crap is why I quit EQ and it's going to cause me to quit WoW as well, at some point. I actually do play a lot, but I'd rather have options available other than raiding, and I'd like to see new content if I'm not in the top 1% of raiders.

Well before you quit CKent, make sure you read about the new exciting PVP system they will have. It will be based on skill and earning points to buy epics, vs the current (crappy) ladder system which is a huge timesink. I think I'm most excited about the new PVP system with the expansion vice PVE.

Actually PvP as it stands is one of the things I enjoy most about WoW. The only problem is on low pop servers like mine, there often aren't enough people to get BGs going - but 1.12 should fix that. What's disillusioned me is the fact the past 18 months have only seen new content for the top raiders... and the change to a 25 man cap in raids tells me they still feel raiding is the answer - the only answer - and that they're trying to tailor it to appeal and be accessible to a larger number of people rather than put other options to enjoy and immerse one's self, and advance one's character, into the game.

 

[eastvillager]

Originally posted by: DannyLove
How different is WoW raiding with DAoC raiding? I remember back in my DAoC days we organized 100+ raids to defeat the Dragon or over in the Sidi Tower.

It is quite a bit different. The uber raids vs. the dragon or the sidi tower were more like a fun thing you'd try now and then, just to say you did it.

The 40-man stuff in WoW is seen as a requirement. You need drops from that place to be competitive in PvP, etc.

Thinking about it, I left DAoC and WoW for the same reasons. I wasn't going to do the master level and artifact grinding DAoC added with the atlantis expansion and I wasn't going to do the 40man raid BS of WoW.

I think this is a great change for WoW. They should leave some 40man stuff in, just don't tie any "must-have" equipment to it. It'll still be there for a challenge, but it won't be the deciding factor between being uber and just being good.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Malladine
Rogues aren't worthless. Rogue DPS and utility are valuable, period.

The class is worthless; its dps is no greater than mages', locks' or fury/arms warriors, yet they take a lot more damage due to having to be in melee range of a plethora of AoE attacks. Rogues have no utility. I don't dislike the players, I played one myself, and both guilds' rogues were some of the best members. Further, MMORPGs (to me) are more about social interaction and having fun than min/maxing everything. But I personally couldn't deal with not contributing my share anymore. As I said, it was a big part of why I shelved that toon.

Playing an end game raiding rogue myself, let me interject. To say the class is "worthless" is hilarious, it makes me wonder if you've even played in an end game raiding guild before.

Mage DPS is much different than a rogue's, as you know it's AOE. On single targets, rogues are 10X more valuable, and on multiple Mages are 10X more than rogues. Mages simply CANNOT hang with rogues on single target DPS. In summary, you can't say overall one is more "valuable" than another because they have different functions and both are needed. Obviously rogues are going to take slightly more damage but a good rogue will minimize that with experience, for example by doing things such as recognizing/dodging cleaves and not standing in Rain of Fires.

Fury Warrior: The only single target mob they will do more than rogues is Patchwerk, and after the rogue review in 1.12 I highly doubt that will be the case.

95% of the time I own our Fury warrior with an AQRipper + Iblis, and he even has a better wep (Thunderfury b/c proc ignores armor on mobs). Gear is more or less equal. He dies approxiamately 75% more than me since he can't shed aggro... and since we have to pay our own repair bills I'm incredibly glad I didn't roll a fake rogue, err Fury Warrior. They suck up our healers mana by not shedding aggro and frankly, I don't think they add much utility to a raid as strict DPS. I can't tell you how many times we wiped in my old guild to Vael because they had 3 DPS Warriors that kept pulling aggro like idiots, while the rogues just vanish once and will never pull aggro.

Well I have to say again, AoE seems to easily eclipse overall dps for all classes. I went into BWL last night and got in right as they were doing the suppresion rooms to broodlord. Obviously a high AoE rated area with all the whelpings. Though through those fights up through firemaw, on my meters there wasn't a rogue in sight. On broodlord mages are getting tranquil air totems, and agro threat reduction through talents. I don't think any rogues pulled agro, though on the threat meter one came *very* close. He vanished and everything was fine. Which is the real key to rogues, the ability to completely reset agro if they go too far.

It was still fun being having the mages all within 50k damage, even though our gear was all over the place. I went in with mostly tier 1 and mixed tier 2 mages. I outpaced the Tier 1&2 locks by a good deal as well. Itemization works by my standards.

For some reason we couldn't keep the tanks up for firemaw, and we wiped a couple times. Which was a shame, as the fight was going along fine until that point.