Wow.... My daughter may becoming Islamic

[Homerboy]

I don't think religious people are unable to "grasp evolution or natural history or anything." I think people who are religious are less likely to accept such things as a scientifically proven theory which contradicts their magical beliefs. You can call it bigotry if you like. I call it a simple empirical observation.

So all those doctors and scientists coming out of India, Pakistan etc and coming to the United States because students in the US are too stupid and/or lazy to fill positions -- those people are 'ess likely to accept such things as a scientifically proven theory? I got news for you kid...

 

[woolfe9998]

So all those doctors and scientists coming out of India, Pakistan etc and coming to the United States because students in the US are too stupid and/or lazy to fill positions -- those people are 'ess likely to accept such things as a scientifically proven theory? I got news for you kid...

Well, I've got some hard facts for you, kid.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/10/darwin-day/

Fewer than a third of Christians and Muslims accept evolution. Jews, Hindus and Buddhists fare better. Yes, religious people are indeed less likely to accept scientific theories which conflict with their magical beliefs. It's a fact. I don't honestly understand why this observation is even controversial.

 

[Homerboy]

Well, I've got some hard facts for you, kid.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/10/darwin-day/

Fewer than a third of Christians and Muslims accept evolution. Jews, Hindus and Buddhists fare better. Yes, religious people are indeed less likely to accept scientific theories which conflict with their magical beliefs. It's a fact. I don't honestly understand why this observation is even controversial.

Little misrepresentation there -- See section # 4 in your article. The majority of religious people (both by sect and as a whole) believe in evolution - either "due to natural process" and/or "Guided by Supreme being"

 

[woolfe9998]

Little misrepresentation there -- the majority of religious people (both by sect and as a whole) believe in evolution - either "due to natural process" and/or "Guided by Supreme being"

No, not misrepresentation. Some religious people believe that the natural world changes, but not by a scientific process. This is not the scientific theory of evolution. Darwin said nothing about God guiding the evolution of species. It's a little less nutty but still not accepting of scientific consensus. The best analogy would be those who believe in a static natural world are like warming deniers, while those who accept a changing natural world, but with a magical explanation, are like those who accept warming but say it isn't man made.

 

[mrjminer]

First off, not a troll thread. Second, she was NOT hiding the books, they were sitting on the kitchen table, I wasn't clear on that. Third the books were on Elijah Mohammed. Apparently he was involved in the Nation of Islam, a black rights movement. She got interested in this person because her best friend's mom gave a presentation about him which my daughter attended.

So this girl is very intelligent and a very highly motivated student (she wants to be a doctor). She does far better in school than my daughter. When my wife was hospitalized for a month in January, she and her mother sent cards and food. Basically they are good decent folks.

Nation of Islam. You need to research this group, it's like a cult. It's NOT a regular "Islam" religion. They are basically an anti-US, black supremacist, radical wing of "Islam" that indoctrinates whoever they can. Her friend / friend's mom are basically Jehovah's Witness of this radical cult/sect targeting your daughter. A lot of religious people, and non-religious people, are "good decent folks." Why did your daughter go do this presentation is a good question, and where was it at?

At least peruse over the Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam . Another notable tidbit in there is their incorporation of "Dianetics," the "auditing" shit from Scientology.

IMO you should force your daughter cut off all contact with these people, because they will never stop trying to indoctrinate her into their cult, subtly or not subtly.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't think religious people are unable to "grasp evolution or natural history or anything." I think people who are religious are less likely to accept such things as a scientifically proven theory which contradicts their magical beliefs. You can call it bigotry if you like. I call it a simple empirical observation.

Sort of the Religious Bell Curve.

Ah well such is the way of things.

 

[woolfe9998]

Sort of the Religious Bell Curve.

Ah well such is the way of things.

Yes, as with all observations about beliefs, attitudes and opinions among various groups, it's a bell curve. There is no such thing as total uniformity of belief among any group. Some Christians accept the theory of evolution, while some (very few) atheists reject it.

This basic observation, however, is kind of hard to refute: that encouraging super-natural explanations for things we see in the natural world has a tendency to discourage naturalistic explanations.

 

[justoh]

As long as this nonsense is respected it will always be a problem. Religion should be treated with contempt and ridicule. Trying to avoid the oft spouted nonsense of "radicalizing muslims" is cowardly and misguided. It's submission to bullying. The so-called "radicals" - otherwise known as adherents - will always have the religious texts on their side. Attack the texts, not practicing religious people, who are themselves all victims. Have empathy even for suicide bombers, or anyone misguidedly labelled as "using religion to excuse immoral behavior." It's them who are being used. Also, hillary lost.

 

[Thebobo]

There maybe some kind of "god/s" but it sure ain't the bible/koran etc kind.

 

[Drako]

LOL at the OP, Nation is Islam and Islamic not the same thing.

 

[agent00f]

Why do you always say "white people", but not "brown people"? Also, anyone can be Muslim, so that accusation is idiotic. Islam is ****** than Christianity with even more ridiculous verses on eternal damnation, stupid comments on women, and just simply more barbaric ****. Anyone who follows Islam is complicit is spreading ****..Funny how the same dolts will say Ivanka is complicit in enabling Trump, though. .

Maybe one day when you figure out simple snark this too will become clear. Rather apropos it's always the conservative real confused by it.

 

[agent00f]

Gotta love all the little snowflakes who are scared a child might learn about something these pussies have never bothered to learn about for themselves and instead formed their opinion from the "news".

Lol


Hey OP, if you want your child to grow up ignorant and intolerant like a lot of the posters here, definitely take their advice. On the other hand, if you find their views of the world abhorrent and not right for a better world, I'd ignore any advice they give you.

Seriously. It may well the purpose of the dumbshits here to serve as a cautionary tale of their own advice.

 

[Maxima1]

Gotta love all the little snowflakes who are scared a child might learn about something these pussies have never bothered to learn about for themselves and instead formed their opinion from the "news".

Lol


Hey OP, if you want your child to grow up ignorant and intolerant like a lot of the posters here, definitely take their advice. On the other hand, if you find their views of the world abhorrent and not right for a better world, I'd ignore any advice they give you.

lmao Some of you guys are incredibly ignorant and have an asinine view of what is or isn't tolerant. Have you read at least parts of the Koran or hadith? Here an hour plus debate, and they failed to prove it is a religion of peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghr-JMq1VT0

 

[agent00f]

lmao Some of you guys are incredibly ignorant and have an asinine view of what is or isn't tolerant. Have you read at least parts of the Koran or hadith? Here an hour plus debate, and they failed to prove it is a religion of peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghr-JMq1VT0

The Koran is just a book rather similar to the Bible. The smart people are well aware of the limitations of archaic texts.

 

[norseamd]

bshole being bshole.

 

[Maxima1]

The Koran is just a book rather similar to the Bible. The smart people are well aware of the limitations of archaic texts.

The Bible at least has things like "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Caesar's", and Jesus is kind of a hippie. Islam doesn't have that.

Edit: The fact that you try to say they're the same (funny how this comes up in everything besides just politics) shows that you don't know jack about Islam.

The hilarious part is most of the same people who vehemently defend Islam are the same one's who complain about "microagressions", the "promotion" of "rape culture", and complaining about Christianity (since it's the majority religion currently that has influence), etc. They're incredibly inconsistent. It's asinine.

 

[agent00f]

The Bible at least has things like "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Caesar's", and Jesus is kind of a hippie. Islam doesn't have that.

The hilarious part is most of the same people who vehemently defend Islam are the same one's who complain about "microagressions", the "promotion" of "rape culture", and complaining about Christianity (since it's the majority religion currently that has influence), etc. They're incredibly inconsistent. It's asinine.

As mentioned your sorts make for a pretty good cautionary tale of willful ignorance, esp in the context of this thread.

Keep in mind the thinkers in society aren't you; y'all are the ones always whining about the smart edumacated people.

 

[Maxima1]

As mentioned your sorts make for a pretty good cautionary tale of willful ignorance, esp in the context of this thread.

Keep in mind the thinkers in society aren't you; y'all are the ones always whining about the smart edumacated people.

I think part of the problem lies with how people like you think we are judging Muslims personally when it's about the religion itself. A Muslim could have a similar moral compass as a Christian or anyone else.

 

[agent00f]

I think part of the problem lies with how people like you think we are judging Muslims personally when it's about the religion itself. A Muslim could have a similar moral compass as a Christian or anyone else.

A trivial googling will produce the quotes from koran about being good or whatever same as the bible, but it's a given that figuring trivial things are beyond your sort. Similar to that sort's totally expected abject ignorance of history given all the wars and whatnot started by christians.

In sum, perfect example of what happens when dumbshits follow their dumbshit advice. It's not at all an contentious point.

 

[Maxima1]

A trivial googling will produce the quotes from koran about being good or whatever same as the bible, but it's a given that figuring trivial things are beyond your sort. Similar to that sort's totally expected abject ignorance of history given all the wars and whatnot started by christians.

In sum, perfect example of what happens when dumbshits follow their dumbshit advice. It's not at all an contentious point.

Okay. You are a moron! The bad things supersede the good things in Islam and there's A LOT more. You can't even do the simple task of giving me something like "Render unto Caesar's" Again, Islam is ****.

 

[agent00f]

Okay. You are a moron! The bad things supersede the good things and there's A LOT more. You can't even do the simple task of giving me something like "Render unto Caesar's" Again, Islam is ****.

Think of how dumb someone has to be to brag that they can't figure how to google, and that's conservatism in a nutshell.

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/6-quran-quotes-teach-love-tolerance-freedom-religion/

 

[Maxima1]

Think of how dumb someone has to be to brag that they can't figure how to google, and that's conservatism in a nutshell.

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/6-quran-quotes-teach-love-tolerance-freedom-religion/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

Click on

Injustice

Intolerance

Cruelty and Violence

Absurdities

Women

Science and History

Contradictions

Interpretations

Family Values

Sex

Language

Homosexuality

Prophecy

You're really stupid. The secularized Muslims don't even contest it. They just say it's akin to a living document.

 

[woolfe9998]

I think part of the problem lies with how people like you think we are judging Muslims personally when it's about the religion itself. A Muslim could have a similar moral compass as a Christian or anyone else.

The real issue is how the two intersect. To what extent does scripture (i.e. the textual basis of religion) affect the attitudes and behavior of its adherents. Has it occurred to you that a Muslim can have a solid moral compass even in spite of whatever nasty things it says in the Koran because scriptural content does not, and never has, correlated terribly well with actual behavior?

If we accept the argument that on the whole, Muslims are less tolerant than Christians are today, and that their Koran has on the whole more intolerant language in it than the Bible, then you run into a problem when viewing it historically. Because Christians used to kill lots of people in the name of Christianity but do not do so as often today, yet their scriptures remain the same. That is because the culture surrounding Christianity has changed, specifically the adoption of secular humanist values in the west, and this has rubbed off on Christians. They now interpret their scriptures in a more tolerant manner.

Example, in the Old Testament it says to kill the gays. In the New Testament, it says homosexuality is bad, but makes no mention of killing them. Christians used to execute people for sodomy. But today the vast majority no longer agree with this practice. Their reason purportedly is that the New Testament law supersedes the Old Testament law. But this interpretation is of recent vintage. In the middle ages when they executed people for sodomy, no one was claiming that it was OK to ignore Old Testament law. Time passes, scriptures remain the same, but cultural changes occur, and scriptures are suddenly being re-interpreted to be consistent with modern cultural values.

Bottom line: it's not really about the scriptures. If it was all about the scriptures, then in theory, Christians should always throughout history have been way more tolerant than Muslims, but that isn't the case.

 

[disappoint]

So if there were a 20 year old who practiced a religion she be insane and out of touch with reality? She would be unable to reconcile her faith so she couldn't be a scientist or engineer because she thinks irrationally?

That depends on what you mean by "practice religion". If you mean for example, believe in an afterlife as a fabric softener of the mind because dealing with the reality of death is too frightening, then yes, I would call that losing touch with reality.

Just found some books she is reading and they are all about Islam. I have mentioned before that her best friend is a black Muslim girl. My daughter is in 8th grade. The question is, should I intervene?

That depends on what you mean by intervene. If by intervene you mean forbid it, that will do 2 things I think you don't want. 1) it will drive her away from you, and 2) it will drive her right into what you attempt to forbid.

If by intervene you mean spend an hour a day learning science together with your daughter that would be time well spent. 1) It will bring you both closer together, 2) It will be less time spent watching "reality" *gag* tv, or some other mindless entertainment or worse, radical Islamic propaganda on the internet. Not saying either of you do that now, just saying quality time spent learning > *.

You can watch YouTube videos on science together. You can tell her you adhere to the tenets of science for example "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and explain to her why that is important. You do know why don't you? If not just ask, some of us will be glad to help. You can talk about the scientific method together. You can talk about all of the contributions science has made to improve people's lives.

Here's the right way to do it: First, find out what she's interested in the most. This may change from one day to the next so ask often. Ask her what she's learned recently that she finds interesting. Don't lead the conversation at first. Let her lead to find out what she wants to talk about. Then talk about whatever subject she brings up and work the "magic" of science and how it applies to her interests into it slowly. If she says "I don't know" or "whatever" or some other such favorite phrases of empty minds* typical of teenagers, then you need to be prepared with something you found interesting so do a little homework beforehand on some interesting current event in science.

*Note: By empty minds I don't mean stupid, but literally empty and ready to learn. Quite the opposite of stupid in fact. The power and potential of an empty mind is not to be underestimated. Sometimes people get stuck in their ways because they are not willing to take on any contradicting views to what they think they already know. It's easier to learn something new when some erroneous information isn't in the way blocking new learning. A famous author once said "The trouble with the world today is not that people know so little, but that they know so many things that are just not so."

 

[desura]

It is the scriptures.

There are several inherent properties of the Quran which makes it more likely that adherents will be violent than Christian texts. The Quran also has properties which encourage more fanaticism and less atheism. However, despite all of this, it is true that in Muslim lands a more or less benevolent understanding of the tradition developed because of secular circumstances where they had some stability and so forth. So normatively, as Muslim culture actually is, much of it is peaceful, but inherently the Quran does lend itself to more extremism.

A few properties:

1. The Quran is the living embodiment of God. The Bible in contrast is a translated text that filtered down through the centuries. The filtered and translated aspect of the Bible is one wedge in which atheism develops. There isn't really any room for such skepticism in the Quran.

2. The Quran has more commands than the Bible. The Quran will say like, "kill him who blasphemes" while the Bible will recite the one time that the Israelite tribes killed their enemies as a recalling of past history.

3. Christianity started as a dissenting movement against the Roman empire. The Quran in contrast is the founding document of the Islamic empire. So Christianity has an emphasis on the weak and humble because that is how it started. The Quran you see statescraft and alpha behavior.