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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
there were a lot of people out there (myself included) who raided because we found it fun, we enjoyed the challange we enjoyed the content ext. most of the people i played with felt the same way, we wanted to be the best that we could be and to do that we raided quite a bit and were always trying to get better, Gear helps that along but was not essential to it. (this may have changed but for the longest time Skill > gear)

Yes it was always a good feeling when you had all the BIS items even knowing they would be replaced somewhat soon.

Even as someone who ground out rank 14 back in the day i never did it because i wanted to gloat over others that i had amazing gear or anything like that, i did it because i wanted to and had a blast doing it.

During wrath we had an awesome 30 of so people of the same mindset who had fun playing the game and all that. after wrath many stopped playing due to Rl or burnout or whatever, life happens. thats the reason i stopped playing, the people i enjoued playing with moved on and the game simply became less fun.

exactly.

I find the game less fun not because everyone has the same gear (just different Ilvls, not that you can tell with transmog) but because those i played with moved on (and in some sad cases passed away).

I raided because it was fun going with the 20-30 people. we had a blast playing and downing the boss's. that's what it was for. A bunch of times people would pass on gear because someone else needed it more. We raided for the fun and challenge. the gear was a bonus.

I don't give a shit that people get the same looking/named gear in LFR as you do in Herioc. LFR sucks compared to regular, which sucks compared to heroic.


It seems to me far to many are concerned with what others are doing and not concerned with what you and your guild are doing.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
81
91
Of course it is relevant. If you are working for months to get gear that you keep for a year, that is X time invested over that year. If you are working for months to get gear that you throw away in 3 months, that is 4X time invested over that year to keep at the same relative gear level. Not everyone wants to spend 4 times as much time at the game.

Not sure i understand. So you want either less content patches or the removal of lfr? Do you want to clear content and then just sit on your gear for a year? Is 4-5 months not enough time to clear a tier? Isn't more content better than less? Also, Heroic tier 15 is much better than lfr tier 16, meaning that tot gear is better than lfr or flex soo.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
You misunderstand the problem with welfare epics.



I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, if welfare epics were not released every patch, a lot more players would be wearing "the same" blue gear. I don't care if everyone is wearing the same gear, that isn't the problem with welfare epics.

The problem is the difference in these two situations:

In vanilla, work for weeks to get blue gear, raid for months and get a set of epics.

New raid released eventually, but your month's effort in epics is still worth something, because there aren't any free welfare epics handed out to everyone in looking for raid or equivalent.

In new WoW, work for a few days to get blue gear, a few weeks in LFR getting junky epics, maybe a month or two doing "real" raids in your guild, maybe even some heroic. Your epics are marginally better than the average idiots.

New raid released- ALL THAT WORK THROWN IN THE TOILET. The new welfare epics that anyone can get in a few weeks of LFR are better than the stuff you worked so hard to earn. There is no long-term payoff for all your hard work.



I don't care. I have no problem with players of any experience or skill level playing WoW. Not sure why anyone thinks it's a bad thing that "bad" players play? Who cares?

All I care about is that months of work raiding is thrown away the moment a new tier comes out, because the new tier will include new welfare epics that make your hard earned items look like scrub gear.

In vanilla, this never happened. Release of BC was something of a reset, but thats fair- it's okay if your gear becomes obsolete every 3-4 years when a new expansion comes out. But going obsolete every 4-6 months because a new raid tier is added? No thank you.

You're changing the argument and / or responding where you shouldn't. Of the problems you listed here, welfare epics is not the problem. Its how frequently they release better gear that is easy to get than the gear you spent time earning. The fact that they are epics is irrelevant. If they were blues you'd (likely) be equally pissed. The point being that the frequency in which easy-to-get better gear has increased to new raid releases instead of just expansion pack releases or some other longer interval. Ultimately, at some point your hard earned gear becomes worthless with or without "welfare epics".

As far as bad players, it doesn't matter how good / bad other players are other than when you try to raid with them. Another complaint being listed here when trying to recruit for guilds / raids. Try to follow the thread.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
Veliko your raiding experience consists of not clearing a few normal mode instances and doing a "few hard modes" (which ones?). If you linked your wow character I think we'd find that you did it after nerfs. Someone like you definitely didn't kill the Lich King until after they not only took away the attempt counter but nerfed the boss. Your experience is incredibly limited. You don't even have any experience during the times that some are comparing to.

Yet you discount everyone here and fail to understand what anyone is saying.

So you go from accusing him of not being a player, on to accusing him of not doing enough. We call this moving goal posts.

He's clearly played enough to have opinions about the game, get over yourself.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
So you go from accusing him of not being a player, on to accusing him of not doing enough. We call this moving goal posts.

He's clearly played enough to have opinions about the game, get over yourself.

You're another one who has nothing to contribute in this thread.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
If you get more emotionally attached to digital representations of 'loot' than the time spent actually getting it, then that's your problem. I sold all of my precious gear to vendors the moment I didn't need it any more.

I find it odd coming from someone that stated, "If I spent however many weeks/months doing a raid, then those weeks/months are full of happy memories.," condemns the fact that seeing my Perdition Blade in my Rogue's bank reminds me of when we defeated Ragnaros. Hell, I also kept gear that I thought simply looked cool.

Those analogies I used are perfectly apt when used to show how absurd the mentality that it's all about the supposed end product.

I disagree. If you're going to make a literature analogy about someone talking about not needing to experience, I'm pretty sure the best example would be, "That's like saying no one ever reads the same book twice."

Jeez, I even have to do your work and argue against myself now?

A bunch of times people would pass on gear because someone else needed it more.

I'm not sure if you're insinuating that anyone that seems to be anti-welfare gear wouldn't, but I've passed on gear for others in the past. Sure, I feel a little remorse, but I'm sure anyone does that has experienced the fun of never seeing an item drop again. That agility cape off Rhyolith? Our Feral Druid never got his. :\

LFR sucks compared to regular

...and that's why I don't like LFR. It's too toned down. I do understand that some people like the pick-up nature of it, and I have no qualms with that. I also understand that with the current state of the player base, it would be hell if it was even at normal difficulty. Now, I've mentioned Wildstar before and how I actually grew more interested in the game when they talked about trying to teach players. They don't want to dumb down the experience, but they also want to give all players a fair chance to understand how things work. I think that's a great approach!

Just because I think someone's not good enough to be in a raid at that point, doesn't mean that I don't want them to be able to experience it. I've always been one of those more patient players; if someone's willing to listen and learn, I'm willing to teach them.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
You're another one who has nothing to contribute in this thread.

And your contribution is exactly what again? "You're a casual! You're opinion on raiding doesn't count!"

Well, let me tell you, I was a 'hardcore' raider. I believe the only guild to down Heroic Lich King before me on my server was Blood Legion. I played on Illidan and raided hardcore since mid BC.

The introduction of more gear, for more players is a better thing unless you are of the mindset that you are special because you started raiding earlier than other players and have the gear from that to access the newest content. That is a moronic mentality and is a bad business model.

Blizzard isn't going to spend lots of money creating content only a select few are going to access. They've already stated their biggest failures were what some of the 'elites' claiming were the best. That doesn't mean I didn't like the content (case in point, I thought Ulduar was one of their best raids and that fact it was hard didn't bother me).

They saw the problem that forcing you in a tiered progression segments the players more than "welfare epics" does. Nobody is going to go back and do Naxx, to gear for Ulduar, to gear for ToC, to do ICC. That is a retarded model.

People who cry about welfare epics and raid nerfs; most of the time, don't have Heroic gear and don't have achievements of pre nerf boss kills. They just like to believe they are the elite, when in fact, they are the exact type of player Blizzard is catering to.

I think Soccerman06's opinion is the only I'd take into consideration, because he was (not sure if he still is) in Blood Legion, so I know he has the end game to back up any talk.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Barrens Chat anyone?

Trade chat was always so much better on my server. I'd just hope into a city "Hey last person to link [Warglaive of Azzanoth] gets 50k gold!"; return to a city an hour later, people are still linking it trying to be the last. That was always good at least once a day.


And the "Why do they call Arthas' horse Invincible if you can see him?" got a rise out of a bunch of people as well.
 
Nov 19, 2011
122
0
76
Yeah it's pretty futile to explain the vanilla experience to players that have never experienced it. They can't seem to grasp the concept that when you hand out epics in every aspect of your game nobody appreciates the gear. Even the casuals get bored and go play gw2.

But they are living proof because almost all of the casuals in this thread have quit the game. If you love the experience of getting handed gear for breathing why are you not playing the game anymore?
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Yeah it's pretty futile to explain to the vanilla experience to players that have never experienced it. They can't seem to grasp the concept that when you hand out epics in every aspect of your game nobody appreciates the gear. Even the casuals get bored and go play gw2.

But they are living proof because almost all of the casuals in this thread have quit the game. If you love the experience of getting handed gear for breathing why are you not playing the game anymore?

Just curious, what is a "casual?" LFR'ers? Just curious.

I've been able to form two arguments from some of the posts:
1) something about casuals affecting elites (what the causation is, I still don't know.)
2) content is coming out faster than before thus making the "this item is so sweet" value much shorter.

To those two I respond with:
1) WTF does anyone else matter to you? Do you spend more time complaining about others or living your own life? Sheesh.
2) As someone who burns through normal content quickly and heroic content reasonably well, WOTLK - sat on my hands for 3-4 months waiting for next tier. Hell I got most of my alts in beautiful purples. Cata - same, even worse, stopped raiding for 2-3 months since I was done. MoP said bye-bye to the elite hardcore, took raiding into my own hands, have enjoyed all the content at a reasonable pace, no tears, just smiles.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Trade chat was always so much better on my server. I'd just hope into a city "Hey last person to link [Warglaive of Azzanoth] gets 50k gold!"; return to a city an hour later, people are still linking it trying to be the last. That was always good at least once a day.


And the "Why do they call Arthas' horse Invincible if you can see him?" got a rise out of a bunch of people as well.

lol i hate both of those. i really do. i just want to smack the people that start it and argue with it.

Just curious, what is a "casual?" LFR'ers? Just curious.

I've been able to form two arguments from some of the posts:
1) something about casuals affecting elites (what the causation is, I still don't know.)
2) content is coming out faster than before thus making the "this item is so sweet" value much shorter.

To those two I respond with:
1) WTF does anyone else matter to you? Do you spend more time complaining about others or living your own life? Sheesh.
2) As someone who burns through normal content quickly and heroic content reasonably well, WOTLK - sat on my hands for 3-4 months waiting for next tier. Hell I got most of my alts in beautiful purples. Cata - same, even worse, stopped raiding for 2-3 months since I was done. MoP said bye-bye to the elite hardcore, took raiding into my own hands, have enjoyed all the content at a reasonable pace, no tears, just smiles.

the only reason i can come up with for people against LFR is then "scrubs" have the same look and name gear as hard core raiders. they can't stand around town looking epic anymore.

I did hard core raiding up until Cata. i got burned out on it. fuck spending 2-3 evenings a night. it's just not enjoyable anymore. With LFR i can get on and get shitty epics and have some fun.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
People who cry about welfare epics and raid nerfs; most of the time, don't have Heroic gear and don't have achievements of pre nerf boss kills. They just like to believe they are the elite, when in fact, they are the exact type of player Blizzard is catering to.

My biggest problem with doing heroics at time was my guild. I always had a hard time finding a guild whose 25-man content wasn't hampered by poor players. These guilds tried to be friendly, which meant that their more hardcore members would end up suffering as the poor players constantly fumbled. Every time I got tired with our progression -- or lack thereof -- I would look to see if any "serious guild" was recruiting, but I could never find any. :\ I usually had to do heroics in 10-man. I did all of ICC on heroic except for Sindragosa as even though my 10-man was pretty good, there were still some that sucked at that fight. In Cata, I got into a guild that I never intended to raid with, but I ended up raiding with them and we did heroics for each instance (10-man).

My issue with everything is that I think there should be a decent amount of effort put in to get the reward. I think LFR is too easy, and I think you shouldn't be forced to beat a raid on normal to do it on heroic. I also think that the nature of LFR is too loose, which causes you to get the scrubbiest of scrubs that are pretty much a waste of heals, but they still (can) get loot anyway. I told a story about that earlier about loot from Ultraxion, and yes, I will absolutely state that I do not think that Paladin deserved to win that gear over my Death Knight. I don't care if you call me elitist for it, that's my stance.

I also remember losing the Whispering Fanged Skull off Lady Deathwhisper in ICC on my shaman, and that was to a healer who requested that he be able to roll on that item. I felt a bit bummed to lose it given I was a DPS (and I wasn't told about that ahead of time), but he wasn't a bad player.

I think Soccerman06's opinion is the only I'd take into consideration, because he was (not sure if he still is) in Blood Legion, so I know he has the end game to back up any talk.

Talk about elitist!
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
My biggest problem with doing heroics at time was my guild. I always had a hard time finding a guild whose 25-man content wasn't hampered by poor players. These guilds tried to be friendly, which meant that their more hardcore members would end up suffering as the poor players constantly fumbled. Every time I got tired with our progression -- or lack thereof -- I would look to see if any "serious guild" was recruiting, but I could never find any. :\ I usually had to do heroics in 10-man. I did all of ICC on heroic except for Sindragosa as even though my 10-man was pretty good, there were still some that sucked at that fight. In Cata, I got into a guild that I never intended to raid with, but I ended up raiding with them and we did heroics for each instance (10-man).
When it comes to recruitment, serious guilds are elitist (and sexist for a large part). I have seen plenty of guilds no accept people under the age of 21 and will straight refuse females due to them causing drama (even if it isn't their fault, just nerds wanting to white knight in their raid group).

My issue with everything is that I think there should be a decent amount of effort put in to get the reward. I think LFR is too easy, and I think you shouldn't be forced to beat a raid on normal to do it on heroic. I also think that the nature of LFR is too loose, which causes you to get the scrubbiest of scrubs that are pretty much a waste of heals, but they still (can) get loot anyway. I told a story about that earlier about loot from Ultraxion, and yes, I will absolutely state that I do not think that Paladin deserved to win that gear over my Death Knight. I don't care if you call me elitist for it, that's my stance.

I also remember losing the Whispering Fanged Skull off Lady Deathwhisper in ICC on my shaman, and that was to a healer who requested that he be able to roll on that item. I felt a bit bummed to lose it given I was a DPS (and I wasn't told about that ahead of time), but he wasn't a bad player.
I understand the gear issue about someone else being able to bid / roll on gear. My guild lost our DK DPS because they let a Ret Pally roll on the first heroic Deathbringer's Will that dropped. He /gquit the second he lost it and posted some novel length rant about it on our forums. The pally did admit he would end up using it primarily in PVP, but it was his main spec. Funny thing is, the next week, I got one with the minimum bid because no other player could use it in main spec (and our trial DPS couldn't bid).

The "problem" with gear being too easy to obtain is an imaginary one. Regardless of gear level, there will still be bad players. Giving those bad players gear doesn't make them better (except on straight DPS fights, but there aren't many of those). Someone getting gear after spending less time playing than you should not effect how much you enjoy and value your gear. Guess what? No matter what you work for in your life, chances are there are quite a few rich kids who will never work a day in their life with something much better: a nicer house, a more exotic car, a hotter spouse. Should that devalue your accomplishments and items? Of course not.

I am not saying that your problem with the LFR isn't valid, because letting anyone in groups of any kind will bring masses of bad players who will get carried through content and get gear they didn't really earn. But, even then, the gear isn't the problem: the players are.


Talk about elitist!
That was more of a calling out of AViking for his "omg everyone is a casual who doesn't agree with me!".
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
My biggest problem with doing heroics at time was my guild. I always had a hard time finding a guild whose 25-man content wasn't hampered by poor players. These guilds tried to be friendly, which meant that their more hardcore members would end up suffering as the poor players constantly fumbled. Every time I got tired with our progression -- or lack thereof -- I would look to see if any "serious guild" was recruiting, but I could never find any. :\ I usually had to do heroics in 10-man. I did all of ICC on heroic except for Sindragosa as even though my 10-man was pretty good, there were still some that sucked at that fight. In Cata, I got into a guild that I never intended to raid with, but I ended up raiding with them and we did heroics for each instance (10-man).

My issue with everything is that I think there should be a decent amount of effort put in to get the reward. I think LFR is too easy, and I think you shouldn't be forced to beat a raid on normal to do it on heroic. I also think that the nature of LFR is too loose, which causes you to get the scrubbiest of scrubs that are pretty much a waste of heals, but they still (can) get loot anyway. I told a story about that earlier about loot from Ultraxion, and yes, I will absolutely state that I do not think that Paladin deserved to win that gear over my Death Knight. I don't care if you call me elitist for it, that's my stance.

I also remember losing the Whispering Fanged Skull off Lady Deathwhisper in ICC on my shaman, and that was to a healer who requested that he be able to roll on that item. I felt a bit bummed to lose it given I was a DPS (and I wasn't told about that ahead of time), but he wasn't a bad player.



Talk about elitist!
Every better guild out there(I guess depends on sever, the low pop servers never had really any good guilds) could raid the 25 man HCs. I raided ICC 25 hardmodes and since we had it on farm probably everyone got all the gear+we regeared alot of alts and such a stuff. So even on HCs the epics were easy to obtain once you got through it for the first time. I was never resolving if someone took the loot good for me because I knew that in upcoming weeks I get it no matter what.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
So even on HCs the epics were easy to obtain once you got through it for the first time. I was never resolving if someone took the loot good for me because I knew that in upcoming weeks I get it no matter what.

This! If you were a serious raider, the only items you fretted over were those super, ultra rare things like Ashes of Ala'r. Even if you had TK on farm, the chances of you getting that were so low.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
You're another one who has nothing to contribute in this thread.

Are you referring to in addition to yourself? Or maybe you deem me to casual and therefor the input outside of your posts is viewed as worthless?

You can just accuse and move on as it will aid your inability to respond to call outs of your posts.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Are you referring to in addition to yourself? Or maybe you deem me to casual and therefor the input outside of your posts is viewed as worthless?

You can just accuse and move on as it will aid your inability to respond to call outs of your posts.

WoW is a casual game. Made by casuals for casuals. Anyone who played MMOs prior to 2004 knows this. That was what made WoW so successful. All these casuals, however, started to think they were elite.

Ha! 2 factions, no true non consensual PVP, keep all your previous loot on death! Makes me sick!
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Guys, we can appreciate an enthusiastic discussion. But the enthusiasm needs to be taken down a notch. This is getting too heated and too personal.

-ViRGE
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
And your contribution is exactly what again? "You're a casual! You're opinion on raiding doesn't count!"

Well, let me tell you, I was a 'hardcore' raider. I believe the only guild to down Heroic Lich King before me on my server was Blood Legion. I played on Illidan and raided hardcore since mid BC.

The introduction of more gear, for more players is a better thing unless you are of the mindset that you are special because you started raiding earlier than other players and have the gear from that to access the newest content. That is a moronic mentality and is a bad business model.

Blizzard isn't going to spend lots of money creating content only a select few are going to access. They've already stated their biggest failures were what some of the 'elites' claiming were the best. That doesn't mean I didn't like the content (case in point, I thought Ulduar was one of their best raids and that fact it was hard didn't bother me).

They saw the problem that forcing you in a tiered progression segments the players more than "welfare epics" does. Nobody is going to go back and do Naxx, to gear for Ulduar, to gear for ToC, to do ICC. That is a retarded model.

People who cry about welfare epics and raid nerfs; most of the time, don't have Heroic gear and don't have achievements of pre nerf boss kills. They just like to believe they are the elite, when in fact, they are the exact type of player Blizzard is catering to.

I think Soccerman06's opinion is the only I'd take into consideration, because he was (not sure if he still is) in Blood Legion, so I know he has the end game to back up any talk.

You were in Raiding Rainbows? That was a very good guild.

Once again I've done casual and I've done hardcore. I've said above that I don't care if you want to play the game to go fishing. However if all you do is fish and are commenting on raiding mechanics then I'm going to dismiss your opinion. I don't mean you but generally speaking.

Lets review what I have said in this thread. These are my opinions.

1. The game engine is old, has only been updated to really improve the look of the water, and the hardware requirements are for 2007 machines. Although catering to a wide audience is great when you consider the other problems the game has it's easy to move along to something else that is modern. I linked a world first kill from the current normal mode tier and lets face it the game looks ancient. I never played for the graphics but I think it's an important consideration when you find yourself closing WOW and opening up another game. It's tough to go back to 2007. They should have a game engine that can support better graphics, modern graphics, for those of us who don't have 7 year old computers.

2. Server depopulation. Worse yet being charged to server and faction change. I don't blame them necessarely for making the default server that you are originally placed on be low pop. I think that's smart business since it spreads out the initial population and probably leads to some income from one server transfer but I do have a serious problem with them not fixing the completely horde dominated servers that exist today. World PVP is all but gone and it's really no fun playing with only your own faction. To me these added fees are really short sighted since I personally saw people simply walk away rather than be faced with either paying more money to move their main but having all their alts elsewhere or paying a kings ransom to move all their characters to a better server.

3. Deflation of gear. I think others have explained this better but gear today is not epic or legendary. It's very easy to aquire and it is quickly replaced. There have been examples already posted but an item such as the Dragonspine Tropy lasted years and into the next expansion. That ended in Wrath and removed some of the epicness from the game. If you acquired the legendary in Ulduar you replaced it in the next instance. That was a huge disappointment. I had BC legendaries and felt genuinely sorry for our Ulduar healers when their legendary was shit the next patch.

4. The disappearance of 25 man guilds. This is complex but 25 man guilds are going extinct on every server my friends play on. Most have zero Alliance guilds. That's ruining the game for them. Equalization of gear and welfare epics demotivate people from putting in the extra effort that 25 mans require. 25 man raids require a lot more effort to organize and I always felt that a differentiation between the raid sizes was appropriate.

5. Server lag and poor latency or disconnects due to ISPs. Look, we all dealt with patch day lag. I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining about what started in Ulduar and never ended. Basically a permanent lag problem. We were unable to get into Ulduar for a week on our server and by the time ICC came out the lag was so bad that we had to change our raiding schedule. Instances like TOC had a serious problem and every time Icehowl charged we would have 1-3 disconnects. This continued. Bosses that we should have had no problem to kill became incredibly difficult because maybe a tank was the one suddenly disconnecting on a boss for the first time in 4 years or maybe it was the kiter. It was very frustrating and reoccurring. Try doing 1 light in the darkness with your tank disconnecting. A Tribute to Insanity took us an extra month on 25 man because of disconnects each time the bugs came up.

6. The quality of players significantly decreased as experienced players quit and wow no longer had a way to teach players to be good. Starting at 5 mans instances used to be challenging. Suddenly in wrath everything was faceroll and if they had a hint of a challenge players would quit after one wipe. LFG introduced a level of anonymity that wasn't there before which made people rude and took away from the learning process. How did I learn how to tank, dps, heal? I got a group together from my guild, friends, and trade chat. You got to know people in all the other guilds. The high end guilds would then offer to teach you how to kill bosses that you were struggling with in say Black Temple. They would help you get attuned. It was a community. LFG and all these easy 5 mans changed that. Case in point: Do you remember The Oculus? Do you remember how people didn't know how to fly the drakes, how people voted to kick, how people afked, and how nobody had the patience to learn the instance? That's what I didn't like. I missed Baron Runs, BRD, and people taking the time to truly teach and help you clear an instance like Heroic Shattered Halls for your attunement. This loss from the game also affected how friends were made and how recruitment was done. I should also mention that the nerfs are generally pretty quick and so extreme that key mechanics can be bypassed and this is also not helping maintain or improve the quality of the players in the game.

7. All content had to be available to everyone. I understand the developers not wanting to recreate Sunwell. I admit that was a mistake. I doubt most people could kill the trash let alone Kalecogos. It was nuts. I'm fine with everyone seeing all the content. Just not at the same time. It's an entire expansion pack and I don't see the point of creating content that is so easy that even the most inept player can do it. Anyone even partially skilled and in a guild was able to clear a normal mode instance in the first week or two. That's far too fast. The game got boring since the content ran out too quickly and quite frankly it was no fun having to kill normal mode and then the same bosses again on hard mode. I would rather they simply have a progression of bosses thorughout the expansion pack that got harder and harder. I would rather they not nerf them so fast. Karazhan 1.0 was pretty difficult. I farmed the blue dungeon set, got attuned, and worked on clearing it. Was a lot of fun. I then moved on from there. There were guilds killing Illidan when I was in SSC/TK. I kept on progressing though and when Sunwell was released I was killing Sunwell bosses. Today that's not the case. Today each patch makes the previous content null and void since everyone goes to a vendor, or the new welfare instance, gets purples, and then does the new instance. Each patch!

8. Welfare epics. The problem here is that it gave people a false sense of skill. Combined with the ease of 5 mans of course. Plus the ease of 10 man over 25 too but not as much since someone killing hard modes in 10 man is perfectly capable of hard modes in 25. Having to weed through the masses of fully epiced out players who had absolutely no idea how to play the game was no fun. The game is not hard. So I ended up right where we were before with attunements and that is recruiting from other guilds that were killing the same content we were. Of course with the depopulation, death of 25 man guilds, etc we were having to bring in server transfers and thus contribute to more people paying more money to compensate for Blizzard having poor server management. Now they have a welfare legendary too it seems. Everyone and their mother has the cloak. I know it's just a color but why not just keep it simple? Blues from 5 mans. Purples from raiding. Highlight the heroics. Make legendaries difficult to obtain. Of course PvP should have access to epics but these welfare epics from 5 mans and vendors is really lame and giving people a false sense of skill. Skill is far more important than gear. We killed raid bosses in blues on first release. Hell we had people with green trinkets. Practically giving away epics to players who then enter a 5 man instance, bypass the mechanics, and never become a good player is terrible for the game.

9. Game burnout. No easy solution here but having raids on separate lockouts was a killer. Thank god they got rid of that. I hear they either brought it back or are going to. I hope that's not true. Patches that lasted too long was another problem. Now a lot of game burnout is personal choice. I did 5 day raiding for a while and decided that was incredibly unhealthy and toned it down significantly. Regardless the issue of duplicate raids was an issue. Nobody liked having to run both 10 and 25 for gear and nobody liked killing the same bosses on normal and then again on hard mode. Took away from that epicness somehow that existed before when you were progressing from boss to boss to boss.

10. Lastly rude players. I had real life friends who quit the game since anyone new is a "noob", nobody has the patience to teach anyone, and nobody will group with someone who isn't fully decked out in welfare epics for even the most simple 5 mans. The community that existed in Vanilla and BC slowly disappeared in Wrath and by the time Cata came out it was pretty much completely gone.
 
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