WOW!!! UT is a brand-new game with Hercules Game Theater XP instead of SB Live!!!

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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126


<< And people saying that the Value is a low end card, the only thing that makes it different is that it doesn't come with useless software and a Livedrive. >>

The original Live! Value has no SPDIF out, and it had a worse analogue output (in terms of S/N ratio) than the full blown Live!.


<< however win2k+sblive(+via) is crappy as hell >>

I haven't had any problems with Win 2000, but then again I only play UT and Q3, and I don't use the analogue outputs anymore. I'm on a BX board too, so I dunno about VIA.


<< The GTXP works flawlessly in win2k, and it's alot better for gaming. BTW, I don't know where you're coming from with that &quot;filtered sound&quot; crap, it's actually called positional audio, something I just discovered since my Live could only produce lame echo sounds. >>

I wouldn't be surprised that the GTXP is better for gaming, but I cannot test it at the moment, since I have a &quot;home theatre&quot; 5.1 speaker setup as opposed to a gaming setup. In terms of positional audio though, outside of gaming, I wouldn't use it. It definitely colours the sound. Properly encoded true multichannel sound is always better than simulated positional audio. For gaming it's fine though.
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,529
3
76
Oh heck, I never could resist a Mob Mentality Riot. Into the fray! :Q

I dunno; unlike the rest of the Entire Worldwide Gaming Community, I haven't had a single problem w/my XGamer. It has it's own PCI slot (no duh, dude!) What I mean is that I have no cards on either side of it, so I'm assuming it doesn't share an IRQ with anything else. Ive' never checked, because I've never had a problem w/it. I did ensure it &quot;had it's own slot&quot; because of everything I'd read about SBLive! cards having probs when sharing IRQs.

I just recently got a 4.1 system, so the whole 3D/Postional/Whateveryoucallit audio thing is new and exciting for me. As far as I'm concerned, I can differentiate (hear) footsteps/gunshots/whatever from rear left/front right/etc, you get the idea. So I'm happy. When gaming, I can hear the soundfield (proper terminology?) change as I run thru halls/fields/etc. I.E. the echo/reverb changes and shifts. I'm very happy with my sound setup. My neighbors (one in particular...) are not so happy. Tough. Welcome to the wonderful world of apartment living. I don't blast it after 2200, so I&quot;m within the law. Tough again.

I've never used anything but the SBLive cards, so I won't get into this bashing thing, because I wouldn't know what I'm talking about! Can you tell I drink lots of coffee in the morning? It makes me type, type, type! Heee-haaaa! More coffee!
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
&quot;Properly encoded true multichannel sound is always better than simulated positional audio.&quot;

That is not always true, it depends on your personal preference. I used the QMSS of my Philips AE to watch DVD's and I figured that true DD 5.1 would sound better. So, I picked a DD decoder and hooked everything up and did some testing. After watching several DVD's with both true 5.1 and QMSS, I prefered the QMSS and sent the DD Decoder back. One reason for this is that DD 5.1 was developed for a movie theater setting where alot of signal to the reat speakers is not preferred as it would overpower the people sitting in the rear of the theater. In a home setup, where the room utilized is smaller, more information being sent to the rear speakers is more pleasing. Again, this is a personal preference thing, but to me QMSS in DVD's was much better. Here is a excerpt from the Neoseeker review of the Philips AE describing what I am talking about.



&quot;One strong appeal of QMSS processing is that you can get an enhanced 5.1 playback from movies that give out a simple stereo stream. If you have a DVD player, you can choose between using true Dolby Digital decoding, or using QMSS to simulate an altogether different 5.1 experience. The difference lay in the encoding of the two streams: a true DD recording has rear channel information coded by the studio, while the QMSS extrapolated 5.1 playback is merely trying to produce a 5.1 sound stream from a stereo source. The interesting thing is that since Dolby Digital is intended for a theater audience, the rear channel effects are used sparingly, and only in situations where it is best suited for a large room. So for example, a lot of music and effects do NOT get sent to the rear channels in Dolby Digital, because in a theater, they don?t want to ruin the experience for the audience in the back rows where too much rear sound may result in a reduced quality of the overall experience.

Now when you take movies into the home or personal theater, things are different. The audience is in a specific location, and so there won?t be a problem with some people getting too much rear, or too much forward channel sound. That?s where Dolby Digital fails, according to some enthusiasts, because the rear channels may not contain enough information to satisfy an intimate environment like a home or personal theater. That?s also where QMSS steps in. QMSS puts a LOT more information into the rear channels than Dolby Digital does. And though this information is taken from the front channels, it isn?t just a mirror of the front soundstage. That makes for a very convincing surround soundstage that can be very exciting in some movies.

I tested the Acoustic Edge on several DVD titles, and did some basic A-B comparisons between true Dolby Digital playback, and QMSS enhanced 5.1 playback, and the benefits of either can be quite convincing. There?s definitely something to be said about the overall enhanced surround sound coming from the QMSS processing: music is appropriately phased into the rear, and some scenes where there?s a lot of echo information become an absolute delight as the sounds literally envelop your entire listening area. In Titan AE for instance, the music sequences gain a lot of energy, and scenes like the ice field chase benefit from the heightened information on the rear channels.

On the other hand, some movies are better off in true Dolby Digital, because QMSS doesn?t provide as clear a center channel, nor does it offer the absolute precision of a true Dolby Digital stream (this due to the fact that it is trying to create rear channels from front stereo streams). The great thing is that QMSS isn?t FORCED onto the user, it is merely another option that you can choose to use when playing back movies, and I find that to be a very powerful option indeed.

Having been subjected to a lot of these types of algorithms, the most impressive thing about QMSS with movies is that it works very accurately. You won?t hear too much leakage into the rear channels, and I didn?t once find any inappropriate sound information being sent to the rear channels (like center channel speech, or certain sound effects that should only come from the front). Forward-rear pans weren?t as precise as with Dolby Digital, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that forward-rear pans were actually quite convincing, considering this type of information just doesn?t exist in the original stream. My guess is that a lot of movie fans with personal home theaters will enjoy the QMSS feature on some of their movies, and yet prefer to stick with DD on their other movies. Even a purist will find some scenes in any movie that are actually better off with QMSS than with true DD.

What I didn?t prefer about QMSS over true Dolby Digital is the loss of a true center channel. QMSS will attempt to create a virtual, or phantom center channel from the stereo stream, but it isn?t a very good center channel. Understandably so, since a center channel is the domain of true AC3(5.1) streams. If you have ever compared Dolby Pro Logic to Dolby Digital, you can relate to the difference that can exist in the center channel?s information. Sequences with heavy voice emphasis are most noticeably different. Take for example the opening sequence for Titan AE, or The Cider House Rules, where a character or narrator is talking to the audience. There the voices are infinitely more distinct, more clear, and more tonally accurate in Dolby Digital. The opening sequence of Titan AE was particularly revealing, as the virtualized center channel from QMSS gave a much deeper voice to the narrator than was originally recorded and mixed by the studio. It was a distraction to me, because I remember well the distinct qualities of several characters in movies I watch, but it may not bother others. And again, you can turn QMSS off for those movies where it has a negative or distracting effect on the sound. &quot;


Sorry for the length, but I think it explains what I am trying to say very well. It boils down to this, sometimes true DD is better than QMSS, and vise versa. It really comes down to personal preference, the movie watched, and the room size that is being used.

 

LocutusX

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,061
0
0
Used to have an SB Live! Value II (manufactured May 2000) in Win2K SP1 / VIA Apollo Pro 133A chipset / Intel CPU. Games (UT, Serious Sam, etc.) seemed to sound great. Never used 3D audio. Using 2.1 speaker system (ACS-45).

Reason I got TB SC... playing MP3's in Win2K was not acceptable, and it was cheap (CAD$60 - $10 less than what I paid for the OEM Live 2 a year ago, and guess what it's still the same price).

So far I've only had time to remove the Live and all its evil registry entries and system files, and install the SC. Installation went fine and I tested it out by running some MP3's. I did notice clearer highs, but the bass was a bit lower. I have yet to try it with any games so when I do I'll update this post.

 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126
Insane3D, I agree, it's personal preference. However, I do not believe that review is wholly correct. DD 5.1 is not always best suited for the home theatre setup, but the reasons are not necessarily related to sparsity of info in the surrounds. For some movies, there is minimal info in the surrounds on purpose, because the info there is strictly for ambience, etc. To augment it with other sound adds info that was never intended to be there. While some people may like it, I would say it's less true to what the director intended, and it's incorrect to say it's a deficiency of DD 5.1. It's sort of like the early stereo records. They were very dramatic in their use of channel separation, but it didn't actually make it sound better (IMHO). It is no surprise that nowadays people don't use that kind of severe mixing. Now if it's purely volume you're talking about and not content, a good 5.1 setup will allow you to set the surround channels' volume independently of the front channels if you so wish.

OTOH, the signal levels of the front channels in the high frequencies definitely needs to be decreased with a lot of DD 5.1 material. High frequencies don't travel well, so for the theatre the sound engineers keep the treble levels high so everyone (including those people 40 feet away) gets crisp sound. In the home or computer room, the amount of treble is way too much, esp. if you're sitting 4 feet from the speakers. Positional audio setups are not built to correct this, although some equalization configs will correct for this. However, this equalization does not require positional audio algorithms at all. In home audio setups, the THX spec requires an option to attenuate the high frequencies.
 

SPAnDAU

Senior member
Oct 15, 1999
677
0
0
LocutusX, where did you get your SC? $60 is way less than my distributor sells if for!!

*Gets out Hot Deals notebook*
 

BrutalJoeJoe

Member
Jul 30, 2000
124
0
0


<< Holdup. The Value, X-Gamer, MP3+, and Platinum (non 5.1) are all the same card. >>



The Live value is a low-end card. I have one and I don' think it's a bad card but it's still low-end...

Now the first live! platinum was released with a live! drive and was the best card at the time... So Live platinum is the previous high-end card...

Realeases... Based on my good memory...

1. Live! Value(low-end) and Live!(high-end) were the two first cards

2. Then came the Live!player 1024(europe), the Live! Mp3+(US), the Live! X-Gamer(US) and the Live! Platinum (world. The three first cards were low-end compared to the platinum but better than the old Live! value.

3. The latest releases are the Live! player 1024, Live! X-gamer, Live Mp3+ and Live! platinum all with the extension 5.1... The status is the same as above in comparesent to each other but they are newer improved boards...
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Jesus Christ, do you realize how old the sblive series are? These brand new sound cards BETTER have good sound quality and lower CPU usage.
 

superbaby

Senior member
Aug 11, 2000
464
0
0
If this Hercules card has digital out in Win2k, including AC3 support then I'm all for it, I'll sell my Live! Platinum 5.1 right away.
 

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
6,495
0
0


<< If this Hercules card has digital out in Win2k, including AC3 support then I'm all for it, I'll sell my Live! Platinum 5.1 right away. >>



hehe, the Hercules card has BOTH optical and coaxial digital outputs, and it supports AC3 as well as DTS passthrough...





<< The Live value is a low-end card. I have one and I don' think it's a bad card but it's still low-end...

Now the first live! platinum was released with a live! drive and was the best card at the time... So Live platinum is the previous high-end card...
>>



I see Creative has succeeded with their marketing BS... First of all, all these cards use the same EMU10K1 chip, so they'll all pretty much sound the same. Second, the Live Value rev.2 is the exact same card as the X-gamer and MP3+, they have the same serial number on the card!!! And third, I don't know if the 5.1 cards are different because I've never seen one, but even if it was a newer revision of the card, do you really think Creative went through the trouble of improving it when all they had to do was add 5.1 software decoding and slap a new label on the box?


Anyways, on another note, I recently read that the Crystal CS4630 chip (SC and GTXP) was capable of doing HARDWARE Dolby Digital decoding, but that they left it out because the licenses would of added too much $$$ to the price...
 

bigbootydaddy

Banned
Sep 14, 2000
5,820
0
0


<< The Live value is a low-end card. I have one and I don' think it's a bad card but it's still low-end...

Now the first live! platinum was released with a live! drive and was the best card at the time... So Live platinum is the previous high-end card...
>>



DANGET: the xgamer, mp3+ and the platinum are all the same card...

the value didnt have spdif out. end of story.
 

bigbootydaddy

Banned
Sep 14, 2000
5,820
0
0


<< Jesus Christ, do you realize how old the sblive series are? These brand new sound cards BETTER have good sound quality and lower CPU usage. >>



well, sblive 5.1 series is &quot;new&quot; but just same old cards with one extra addon.

its like me selling you a video card....
then coming back the next year, overclocking it and sticking a fan on it and saying 10% faster. (bad example but u get the point)
 

vohwink1

Member
Nov 14, 2000
174
0
0
Ugh, yeah didn't think about the special settings and turn them off first.. my bad! I will see if I can get a more neutral test done sometime tonight. Maybe bring in an unexperienced ear like my GF and blindfold her

 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126


<< Then played the GTXP. He was like... wow, there is a lot more depth in the sound and the bass is deeper than before. >>

Is that with audio processing on or off? If with audio processing on then it's an invalid test, esp. with MP3. Sleazy salesmen types use this sort of thing all the time to sell crappy speakers in low-end stereo stores. (This is easy to do since some CDs are engineered with audio processing already - makes any set of speakers sound different.) The most accurate way to test sound quality is with all post-source sound processing turned off and without a CD with positional audio. If done properly though, post-source processing can sound quite good, esp. with games.

If it is the true native sound source output directly, then I find it hard to believe your test, since most review sites have given favourable reviews to the frequency response and quality of the SB Live! non-value curves. The card is not as good as professional cards, but does surprisingly well. Depth of sound would not be significantly improved in a better card until you get into the 4-digit price range, and bass response differences would not be easily noticeable on a standard computer speaker setup, unless the GTXP has a signal peak in the upper bass (which would be a bad thing in my opinion).

I think we need a real review place do a head to head comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if positional audio algorithms and gaming of the GTXP are superior to the Live!, but I would be very surprised if it handily beat it in terms of the response curve and signal to noise ratio.
 

LocutusX

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,061
0
0


<< If it is the true native sound source output directly, then I find it hard to believe your test, since most review sites have given favourable reviews to the frequency response and quality of the SB Live! non-value curves. The card is not as good as professional cards, but does surprisingly well. >>



According to pcavtech.com, the &quot;new&quot; SBLive, which includes the CT4830 (Live Value II) scores a 11 or 12 while the TB Santa Cruz scores a 7. Lower is better. Of all the &quot;non-audiophile&quot; level cards, the TB SC gets the highest ranking. It gets rated an &quot;Excellent&quot; in half the categories (frequency response included) and a &quot;very good&quot; in the rest. The &quot;new&quot; SBLive gets &quot;very good&quot; in all of the categories. Since they rate cards using specialized equipment and have no bias, it is clear that there *IS* some improvement in using the SC over the Live 2nd edition.

(Live 1st ed. is rated a good deal *worse* however... as is to be expected)

My opinion: I couldn't really tell the diff between my old MP3 setup with the Live value 2 and the TB SC, maybe because: (1) I use the MAD plugin for winamp MP3 decoding (2) all my MP3's are encoded using LAME at the most optimal settings (see r3mix.net) (3) My ACS-45's are a bit old and have seen some wear and tear. The only abvious diff to me in MP3 quality is that the SC does not boost bass frequencies as much as the Live! -- in that sense *IT* is more neutral to me, than the Live! was.

So for MP3 and general sound purposes I'm mainly more satisfied with the SC's better behaviour with my VIA chipset mobo than anything else.

HOWEVER I was able to re-install UT 4.36 yesterday and I was thoroughly impressed. Previously I had it installed and I tried enabling 3D hardware sound after installing Creative's special Live-specific EAX patches. Guess what, NO noticeable difference. However with the TB SC, I did not install any specific-to-SC patches, I just enabled 3D hardware sound and I was treated to a WORLD of difference. I only have a 2.1 spkr system, but the panning was SO much more improved and by using reverb and occlusion very effectively it definitely makes the sound very 3D like. It's definitely going to improve my gaming experience in intense DM firefights, because more importantly there was NO noticeable framerate reduction (see my rig for specs).

When I had the Live value2, after I noticed how pathetic it's UT 3d hardware sound was, I tried putting it into Movie Mode (enables Dolby Surround decoding), connecting up 4 speakers, and playing UT with surround sound turned on. This did give me *some* sense of sound direction, but not nearly as much as the TBSC mainly because the panning was ATROCIOUS. Also there is only one rear channel which is kind of limiting.

All in all I'm definitely satisfied with my CAD$60 spent on an OEM Santa Cruz. Probably the best $60 I ever spent upgrading my system. Definitely more useful to me than the $200 I spent on upgrading to 512MB back when memory was expensive.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Jesus Christ, do you realize how old the sblive series are? These brand new sound cards BETTER have good sound quality and lower CPU usage.

The SB Live and EMU10K1 still holds up surprisingly well compared to all the newer soundchips. In fact, it still rules in MIDI -- none of the other chipsets come even close.

I think this has to do with the fact that audio fidelity and processing has reached a point where most human ears can't tell the difference.

I mean, not many humans can hear a big improvement over a soundcard that provides a SNR of 95 db with a frequency response close to 20 Hz to 20 Khz.

Having a new soundcard with a SNR of 99 db is only for bragging rights.

Having said this, I have 3 systems with 3 different soundcards: SB Live, Acoustic Edge, and Santa Cruz. I think they are all great soundcards.

 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126
Heheh LocutusX, it's funny you should mention the Turtle Beach card. Turtle beach cards used to be considered high end consumer but not quite low-end pro, whereas Creative has always solidly been in the consumer realm. It IS better than the Live! Value. The Live! Platinum (CT4760) was not tested though although I would not be surprised if the SC still does slightly better or similar and considerably less cost. The SC is definitely a good value at $60 Canadian.

By the way, I was talking more about the GTXP, but nonetheless, my statement still stands. Gaming on the Live! isn't something I'll say it's good in, but I'd be surprised there was a significant difference in sound quality for a Live! Platinum and a GTXP for MP3 with all sound processing turned off on an average or even good computer speaker system. If there IS a significant difference, then I'd wonder if the GTXP is doing something funky.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,853
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
about the herc and AC3/DTS in win2k.. has anyone ACTUALLY GOT THIS WORKING???? I don't have it, but someone else was asking, and a reason why my friend got it... he can't get it workin yet, his old aureal drivers and giving him hell (he will reformat soon).
 

Chad

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,224
0
76
lnguyen,

Well I don't know if this answers your question, but I did have an optical cord from the optical out of the breakout box hooked up to my $500 Yamaha receiver optical in running my 5.1 system for a few days (had to play Quake III on my TV with that sound system.

One word...

WOW!!!
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126
Heheh. I like SPDIF. I only run with the SPDIF nowadays.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,853
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
sending sound is one thing, i can do that w/ my vortex2... getting the actually signals is another... no one seems to have an answer tho.. and my friend hasn't gotten his lazy bum to reinstall 2k (he has it workin in WinME)
 

billyjak

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,869
1
81
I say the speakers are more important, I couldn't hear anything in UT, the the 4.1 Klipsch come along and it sounds so sweet now.
That's with the live x-gamer, but that Herc card is tempting, have to wait for Nvidias solution first.
Could possibly get awesome sound for free with my next upgrade.
 
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