wowowow Surface Pro review

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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
if they have a decent 2TB micro sdxc, I'll get one, slap it in the 128 version of surface. Seriously, 23GB will not hold all my progs. Especially if I plan on having photoshop, illustrator, office, etc. Good try, but no cig....
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
if they have a decent 2TB micro sdxc, I'll get one, slap it in the 128 version of surface. Seriously, 23GB will not hold all my progs. Especially if I plan on having photoshop, illustrator, office, etc. Good try, but no cig....

It's going to be a long time until 2TB micro sdxc cards are out. And read/write speed is another matter entirely.
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
true dat... Someone should do a demo of the surface + photoshop. I want to see how bad the lag is in photoshop with the pen digitizer. When I went to CES, the pen input in on the panasonic 20" tablet device in photoshop was unusable. But in the custom software that panny had was perfect. almost 0 lag.

Judging by the videos on youtube, it seems that the surface has a delay in the pen input. Too bad... It was my biggest buying point...
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
Granted, the fastest USB 3 flash drives are finally reaching read/write speeds that move beyond magnetic platter speeds and approach SSDs - but the price/performance ratio is also rivaling SSDs. 64GB 200MB/s thumbdrive is somewhere around $100 iirc.

Approach SSDs? I can get an SSD that's 500 MB/s read/write. Stop spreading fud.
 

Drsignguy

Platinum Member
Mar 24, 2002
2,264
0
76
Apparently, Microsoft had "an initial shipment volume of one million Surface Pro units".@ release date.


http://www.winbeta.org/news/potential-surface-pro-customers-frustrated-during-launch-day-thanks-out-stock-crisis.

Other links are within.

Microsoft posted a statement http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-issues-statement-128gb-surface-pro-out-stock-crisis-working-replenish-supplies

oh yea, they are amazed on the demand all right..................


Sounds to me that a lot of people are pretty pissed off.

Me personally, I am baffled....
 
Last edited:

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
Best Buy near me got 1 64gig version that went immediately and ZERO 128gigs. They weren't happy and neither were the 5 people who had pre ordered. Also their demo unit didn't have the pen so I couldn't try that. Very nice screen though.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
In paint and normal operations the pen response seems completely fine.

The 'dpi' complaints are definitely legitimate. Set at 150%, some stuff is still tiny for no explicable reason. A good example is youtube video buttons get all wonky sometimes, the fwd/back buttons in IE are too small, text zooms in odd ways. If windows 8 is going to compete in the high res tablet environment they have to find a way to fix this DPI disparity. This thing would be unusable without the wacom pen as the resolution is too high to accurately select things. Hell, even with the pen it's often difficult to select things like the minimize button.

Also I really need a decent case. The device is fine to hold in one hand size/weight-wise, but there just isn't any decent way to grip it. Right new I leave the pegleg out and use that as a grip.

The type keyboard, for me, is useless. It's too flimsy to use on your lap, I could see it being great for a student or starbucks-whore, but as a 'professional' device (IE docked at my desk with real keyboard or at home walking around the house) the keyboard will never get used.

I really wish they made the type keyboard with a stiff physical hinge, so the device could be used on your lap.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Apparently it's coming in and out of stock on the MS store. This is frustrating.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Approach SSDs? I can get an SSD that's 500 MB/s read/write. Stop spreading fud.

Did I say "approaching top of the line recent SSDs"? No.
250MB/s for recent USB 3 flash drives, after recent ones were 100-150, they are indeed "approaching". Especially SSDs that aren't top of the line.

It ain't fud.
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
Did I say "approaching top of the line recent SSDs"? No.
250MB/s for recent USB 3 flash drives, after recent ones were 100-150, they are indeed "approaching". Especially SSDs that aren't top of the line.

It ain't fud.

You didn't say low end SSDs. On top of that a USB 3.0 flash drive at those speeds costs more per GB than a top end SSD.

The SSD in the surface pro reads at almost 500 MB/s. A flash drive is not comparable nor is it practical as a solution for extending its storage. You're better off buying the 128GB model.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
In paint and normal operations the pen response seems completely fine.

The 'dpi' complaints are definitely legitimate. Set at 150%, some stuff is still tiny for no explicable reason. A good example is youtube video buttons get all wonky sometimes, the fwd/back buttons in IE are too small, text zooms in odd ways. If windows 8 is going to compete in the high res tablet environment they have to find a way to fix this DPI disparity. This thing would be unusable without the wacom pen as the resolution is too high to accurately select things. Hell, even with the pen it's often difficult to select things like the minimize button.

Also I really need a decent case. The device is fine to hold in one hand size/weight-wise, but there just isn't any decent way to grip it. Right new I leave the pegleg out and use that as a grip.

The type keyboard, for me, is useless. It's too flimsy to use on your lap, I could see it being great for a student or starbucks-whore, but as a 'professional' device (IE docked at my desk with real keyboard or at home walking around the house) the keyboard will never get used.

I really wish they made the type keyboard with a stiff physical hinge, so the device could be used on your lap.

There's been no confirmations, but there's been rumors based on some things a rep posted on Reddit that they are thinking of a better keyboard dock with extra battery. I'd like to see it and how much they want to charge before I'd consider the Surface Pro. I'd have the same problems with the current keyboard covers that you have.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
You didn't say low end SSDs. On top of that a USB 3.0 flash drive at those speeds costs more per GB than a top end SSD.

The SSD in the surface pro reads at almost 500 MB/s. A flash drive is not comparable nor is it practical as a solution for extending its storage. You're better off buying the 128GB model.

It's not practical for extended the storage for permanently installed app space, true.
But for storage space of rarely accessed media, documents, etc?

I think you are misunderstanding speed differences.
And have completely forgotten where we came from, what we had. We were lucky to have 80MB/s platter-based drives on 100/133MB/s interfaces.

When SSD came around and become somewhat affordable for "the masses", 300MB/s was consider supreme, if that was even attainable (it was still out of my reach for cost per gigabyte/practical measures). It was common to find drives that would dip down below 250MB/s for certain measurement methods, like combined read/write or different sector sizes, etc etc.

In short, as time marches on, USB 3 thumb-sticks will continue to get faster. In the past year, iirc, they've already moved from roughly 100MB/s consistently, to over 250MB/s in some metrics and what otherwise appears to be 200MB/s consistently.


Look, I'm not looking to debate the matter or turn this into some thread derailment.
IMHO, media/document storage on a 64/128GB USB3 250MB/s thumbdrive is perfectly acceptable. I could reach out for such even when I can get my hands on the 128GB Surface Pro. I won't, not right away, as I'll wait for prices to get into the more reasonable category.

But it's also worthless to compare to SSDs for pricing - that's not how thumb-drives should be compared, because the utility is of a different nature. And we can't upgrade the SSD in the Surface, though it may be "hackable" - perhaps it uses mSATA and it's locked away simply because the device itself is "sealed." mSATA drives are hard to purchase as a consumer, but they can probably be found. We'd have to wait for a good teardown.

If you think 250MB/s is slow for a hard drive, especially one without the OS, you're simply out of your mind. Even as a boot drive, that speed would be extremely beneficial and a major time saver. For anyone with a HDD, they'd take it in a heartbeat.
Of course it won't compare to recent-model SSDs and/or new firmware releases - I don't think thumb-drives will ever match the top SSDs of the same launch window - not enough silicon to write to simultaneously.

But accessing large files that aren't often accessed, a bunch of MP3s, movies, documents and photos and other media, especially, say, graphical files? Unless the dongle makes working with the thing that much more difficult, it would actually be BETTER to have external storage. You could get a full proper external drive, but that's much larger in comparison, but you can even get an SSD and have the same speed, or many will get physical HDDs for the storage benefit that they use from time to time.
But honestly, it would be best to take a little effort to save on the write cycles for the SSD.

It'll be wonderful once SD cards have a good speed/performance increase. UHS-1 is great but UHS-2, and the actual silicon to provide that performance sustained and consistently, is needed for it to be a welcome addition for anything but rare media use.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
There's been no confirmations, but there's been rumors based on some things a rep posted on Reddit that they are thinking of a better keyboard dock with extra battery. I'd like to see it and how much they want to charge before I'd consider the Surface Pro. I'd have the same problems with the current keyboard covers that you have.

Well, those reps are part of the engineering team that helped design/build the device.
And they clearly added additional capability to the keyboard dock area, and basically stated in clear words that A) that dock region could transfer/provide more current (as in, electrical capacity), and B) the design can support additional battery/keyboard combinations.

They weren't exactly clear on what any accessories would specifically look like/feature, but it's fairly well assumed they are positioning to either release a keyboard with a built-in battery for the Pro, or have made it possible for a third-party manufacturer to supply the same.

If they can release a keyboard with a tablet-supporting hinge, and it has a built-in battery... game over man, game over.
The Think Pad Helix will feature the same, and after all is said and done the price different may be minimal (the Helix will probably have better storage off the bat). But if Microsoft can get that out, or at least a quality third-party accessory that does the same, the Surface (the Pro branding, at least) will become a strong brand.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126

Microsoft never really has had much luck choosing a good ad firm and/or being picky enough.

The basic Surface RT ads, with the clicking and whatnot - I was impressed with those, for Microsoft ads.

They should have just been a little more ballsy and went with a touch more of the Apple approach.

Perhaps mock the old "I'm a PC, and I'm a Mac" ads? That's legal, right?
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
It's not practical for extended the storage for permanently installed app space, true.
But for storage space of rarely accessed media, documents, etc?

I think you are misunderstanding speed differences.
And have completely forgotten where we came from, what we had. We were lucky to have 80MB/s platter-based drives on 100/133MB/s interfaces.

When SSD came around and become somewhat affordable for "the masses", 300MB/s was consider supreme, if that was even attainable (it was still out of my reach for cost per gigabyte/practical measures). It was common to find drives that would dip down below 250MB/s for certain measurement methods, like combined read/write or different sector sizes, etc etc.

In short, as time marches on, USB 3 thumb-sticks will continue to get faster. In the past year, iirc, they've already moved from roughly 100MB/s consistently, to over 250MB/s in some metrics and what otherwise appears to be 200MB/s consistently.


Look, I'm not looking to debate the matter or turn this into some thread derailment.
IMHO, media/document storage on a 64/128GB USB3 250MB/s thumbdrive is perfectly acceptable. I could reach out for such even when I can get my hands on the 128GB Surface Pro. I won't, not right away, as I'll wait for prices to get into the more reasonable category.

But it's also worthless to compare to SSDs for pricing - that's not how thumb-drives should be compared, because the utility is of a different nature. And we can't upgrade the SSD in the Surface, though it may be "hackable" - perhaps it uses mSATA and it's locked away simply because the device itself is "sealed." mSATA drives are hard to purchase as a consumer, but they can probably be found. We'd have to wait for a good teardown.

If you think 250MB/s is slow for a hard drive, especially one without the OS, you're simply out of your mind. Even as a boot drive, that speed would be extremely beneficial and a major time saver. For anyone with a HDD, they'd take it in a heartbeat.
Of course it won't compare to recent-model SSDs and/or new firmware releases - I don't think thumb-drives will ever match the top SSDs of the same launch window - not enough silicon to write to simultaneously.

But accessing large files that aren't often accessed, a bunch of MP3s, movies, documents and photos and other media, especially, say, graphical files? Unless the dongle makes working with the thing that much more difficult, it would actually be BETTER to have external storage. You could get a full proper external drive, but that's much larger in comparison, but you can even get an SSD and have the same speed, or many will get physical HDDs for the storage benefit that they use from time to time.
But honestly, it would be best to take a little effort to save on the write cycles for the SSD.

It'll be wonderful once SD cards have a good speed/performance increase. UHS-1 is great but UHS-2, and the actual silicon to provide that performance sustained and consistently, is needed for it to be a welcome addition for anything but rare media use.

Thanks for the story, but its not relevant due to the costs of USB 3.0 flash. I don't care where SSDs started when usb 3.0 flash costs more than a top end SSD. You're still better off with the 128GB model.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Thanks for the story, but its not relevant due to the costs of USB 3.0 flash. I don't care where SSDs started when usb 3.0 flash costs more than a top end SSD. You're still better off with the 128GB model.

lol
I never said otherwise.

But 128GB still is hardly enough, and THUS, the need for external storage solutions with some transfer speed capability. No external HDD is going to give you remotely close to flash performance (though HDDs will be far superior to all SDXC cards at the moment).
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Anybody feel like trying out nearby Best Buys to see if they have received more stock?

When would one expect BB to actually receive more?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Call them?

Just did.
Apparently, if you call (888 number - same for every store!) they use your zip code to check store inventory. And it sure as hell sounds like they use the website to do that. ("it's showing as unavailable. blah blah blah")
I could see that for myself on their website, but it showed that at launch day prior to store open, and even right at open. Some stores in the region had at least one, that should have made it read something other than unavailable.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
If you are interested, best buy will reserve one for you. No idea how long I will have to wait, or how many are ahead of me in line, but I have a 128gb reserved.
 
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