Wrong place wrong time....

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Listening to the anti-Iraqers is funny stuff. They wink at each other about oil, yet the US hasn't taken a drop. They act like Bush is this evil, cunning mastermind and then talk about him being a dimwitted moron. They whine on and on about WMDs, yet Kerry, France, the UN, and virtually everyone in the world thought he had them also. They ignore governments like Britain, Australia, Italy and Japan, and crap their pants about France and Germany not wanting the US to attack so they can preserve their immoral economic schemes with Saddam. These people will take any side and say any thing that they think will serve their political purpose. No wonder they like Kerry.

The issue was crystal clear. Saddam had to follow the 10 or so resolutions that had been passed since 1991 and open up, allow unrestricted access, and prove he destroyed his WMDs. Repeatedly he refused. And instead of looking at the value and worth of our actions there and supporting it, a bunch of stupids are trying their hearts out to use it as political ammo to bring down the president. A strange breed.

Of course there will be people who are ignorant, or self-hating, or guided by racism, or anti-globalization, or environmental freaks... basically the same socialist anti-American bunch during the Cold War who were fierce apologists for communist tyranny and bloodshed. They have simply switched themes to defend the brutal hatred and violence of the next stumbling block to freedom and life. One gets the feeling that any incredible atrocity can occur, but their anguish is only aroused when the United States does anything, no matter how tiny the infraction or accidental and even if it's for noble causes. Like the old marxists who would whitewash the 50+ MILLION dead thanks to Stalin and Mao, but fly into convulsions when a stray US bomb killed a half-dozen people in Honduras. And as during the Cold War, once again they'll end up on the wrong side of history.

They only way to deal with the threats we face is to hit it head on like we're doing in Iraq and setting up westernized governments ike we're doing in Iraq.

My god, no wonder why they want to blow us up.

:thumbsdown::disgust::thumbsdown:


In case you haven't noticed the US isn't A country, it's OUR country blowing up people.

Hitting "head on" means killing people who where no threat to us, then saying in effect "yeah, so we killed your people, but hey we are spreading less evil"

BS.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
CADsortaGUY

Ah, so it's "OK" to fight a "wrong war" if there is a reason you accept. gotcha

Sorry, but you were the one to claim there was a contradiction between starting "the wrong war" and not dropping it and walking away. I just supplied a reason why the assumption was false. You can twist and spin all you want but I doubt you can actually show a contradiction. It only sounds good if you don't think too much.

Wrong.
Why would continuing to "destroy a country's government, military, and infrastructure" be morally acceptable - if you think that's what we're doing? You see, kerry can't take a principled stand on this because he voted for the authorization and says he'll continue the war. Now why exactly would someone willingly continue a "wrong war"? The answer is because he doesn't really believe it is the "wrong war". During the previous administration he was a hawk on Saddam, during this Administration he was a hawk....right up until he needed to change after dean left the race. Now kerry is scamming dean's so-called "principled" opposition to Iraq so he doesn't lose his "base" and so he can be "not Bush".

CsG

You want Kerry to abandon what is now the Responsibility of the US? Sorry, Kerry doesn't run to Daddy, the Bin Ladens, Cheney, or others when things are not going his way.

 

[cwjerome]

Jack, we are ALREADY seen as an agressor nation, how could it possibly get worse? Since 1979 we have been the Great Satan, and terrorsists and those who support them have been at war with us. 9/11 was a wake-up call that there's a war, and we had better act like it. Let us have no illusions as to what we face, and what must be done. We cannot afford to engage in the usual sham with these people. Negotiating doesn't help. Appeasement doesn't work. At this critical point, destroying them is the only solution. An essential aspect of this requires removing governments that fuel and support the hateful ideologies that are the root causes of terrorism, and those that can arm them with unimaginable weapons. Showing governments what happens if they fail to crack down on terrorists within their borders, or potentially supply them with WMDs should be an unequivocal lesson: If they don't, we will.

I totally agree that security, economic development, and secular education are critical, and those things are slowly taking place in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those things cannot happen in some areas without the use of force, and it's a fools paradise we can no longer risk to believe that sitting down with these monkeys at a table will do any of those things. I truly believe that the die is cast, and our efforts -if they continue- will be seen 30 and 40 years from now as the wonderful starting point of ushering in peace and stability in the Middle East. Sometimes things have to get a little worse for them to get a lot better, because all I know the old ways pre-9/11 won't work.

Guev, I tend to agree with you, but there's a lot of people going nuts on Bush because of Iraq so they can get their guy in office. I just hope if Kerry gets elected, he stays the course and sees the larger strategic scope of how we're trying to change the world to eventually vanquish international terrorism, instead of "containment" (i.e. accepting them) and retaliating with a cruise missle strike every time they blow up innocent civilians.

Winston, what can I say? If you can't tell the difference between us and the enemy, there's really no point in responding. I'm sorry, but our government doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, and murder 3000+ innocent people. We don't run suicide bombers into large groups of school children, saw off people's heads, or drag burnt bodies around in the streets. As a matter of fact we fight the most moral battles in the history of the world, going to awesome lengths and costs to avoid collateral damage-- often putting our own troops lives and mission success in much greater danger. I suppose the "innocents" we killed while battling Germany and Japan in WWII put us on the same level as Germany's concentration camps or Japan's rape of Nanking. I suppose we should have just let them do whatever for fear of killing innocents. I suppose we should just lay down and die when faced with aggression. It's precisley your attitude that emboldens and strengthens terrorists and governments that support them. How nice of you to fall lock-step into their plan. Wake up man.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Much of the ire of the extremists in the M.E. stemmed from our support of Israel. Then, after the first Gulf War (which I supported), we left troops stationed there. Not only did they taunt this as proof of further designs on the region, they claimed a sort of risk of contamination, Westernasation. Now they point to the war in Iraq as proof positive that we are an aggressor nation with further designs on the region. You and I can disagree with them and call our actions noble. It makes no difference in the magnitude of their reaction. Their reaction was foreseeable, and in many quarters, expected. It would therefore be prudent to consider the possible reactions to any actions we consider taking and choosing wisely.

The people there are patient, have long memories, and are often willing to die for their beliefs. Enforcing our will at the point of a gun could lead to a conflict that lasts for generations. There are no easy solutions, but there are many bad ones.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Listening to the anti-Iraqers is funny stuff. They wink at each other about oil, yet the US hasn't taken a drop. They act like Bush is this evil, cunning mastermind and then talk about him being a dimwitted moron. They whine on and on about WMDs, yet Kerry, France, the UN, and virtually everyone in the world thought he had them also. They ignore governments like Britain, Australia, Italy and Japan, and crap their pants about France and Germany not wanting the US to attack so they can preserve their immoral economic schemes with Saddam. These people will take any side and say any thing that they think will serve their political purpose. No wonder they like Kerry.

The issue was crystal clear. Saddam had to follow the 10 or so resolutions that had been passed since 1991 and open up, allow unrestricted access, and prove he destroyed his WMDs. Repeatedly he refused. And instead of looking at the value and worth of our actions there and supporting it, a bunch of stupids are trying their hearts out to use it as political ammo to bring down the president. A strange breed.

Of course there will be people who are ignorant, or self-hating, or guided by racism, or anti-globalization, or environmental freaks... basically the same socialist anti-American bunch during the Cold War who were fierce apologists for communist tyranny and bloodshed. They have simply switched themes to defend the brutal hatred and violence of the next stumbling block to freedom and life. One gets the feeling that any incredible atrocity can occur, but their anguish is only aroused when the United States does anything, no matter how tiny the infraction or accidental and even if it's for noble causes. Like the old marxists who would whitewash the 50+ MILLION dead thanks to Stalin and Mao, but fly into convulsions when a stray US bomb killed a half-dozen people in Honduras. And as during the Cold War, once again they'll end up on the wrong side of history.

They only way to deal with the threats we face is to hit it head on like we're doing in Iraq and setting up westernized governments ike we're doing in Iraq.

My god, no wonder why they want to blow us up.

:thumbsdown::disgust::thumbsdown:


In case you haven't noticed the US isn't A country, it's OUR country blowing up people.

Hitting "head on" means killing people who where no threat to us, then saying in effect "yeah, so we killed your people, but hey we are spreading less evil"

BS.

Oh boy, another armchair executioner to add to the short list. Yawn. I can't believe this late in death toll there are still people like cwjerome willing to come out of the woodwork to offer up other Americans lives in support of their candidate.

You war supporters should all be over there taking the place of a soldier who has up until now, avoided death. I am sure they would love the break and you can have your way and you can set up your "westernize governments" not only with your brave talk, but with your actual blood.

Godspeed cowards.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Wow looks like I have a couple of new well informed fellow posters here.

cwjerome + mockery:

:beer:

:roll:

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: cwjerome


Winston, what can I say? If you can't tell the difference between us and the enemy, there's really no point in responding. I'm sorry, but our government doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, and murder 3000+ innocent people. . Wake up man.

I'm sorry, but Iraq doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, or murder 3000+ innocent people either, noob.

Take your own advice, wake up in the morning, head down to your local recruiter, and ship your ass off to Iraq where you big words can actually do some good.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Genx87
Wow looks like I have a couple of new well informed fellow posters here.

cwjerome + mockery:

:beer:

:roll:

I find it telling that you were able to sum up your entire contributions to this thread with a single emotion.

haha

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Genx87
Wow looks like I have a couple of new well informed fellow posters here.

cwjerome + mockery:

:beer:

:roll:

I find it telling that you were able to sum up your entire contributions to this thread with a single emotion.

haha

:roll:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: cwjerome


Winston, what can I say? If you can't tell the difference between us and the enemy, there's really no point in responding. I'm sorry, but our government doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, and murder 3000+ innocent people. . Wake up man.

I'm sorry, but Iraq doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, or murder 3000+ innocent people either, noob.

Take your own advice, wake up in the morning, head down to your local recruiter, and ship your ass off to Iraq where you big words can actually do some good.

Precisely. I know who the enemies are. One is Bin Laden and his terrorists. Then there are those who drag us into war with a country based on false information, with either criminal intent or criminal stupidity. That is a more subtle one, and that kind of mentality worries me more, because it can be used to justify anything.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Oh boy, another armchair executioner to add to the short list. Yawn. I can't believe this late in death toll there are still people like cwjerome willing to come out of the woodwork to offer up other Americans lives in support of their candidate.

You war supporters should all be over there taking the place of a soldier who has up until now, avoided death. I am sure they would love the break and you can have your way and you can set up your "westernize governments" not only with your brave talk, but with your actual blood.

Godspeed cowards.

Interesting how the soldiers who are doing the fighting and dieing for this war can have such a different outlook on what is actually taking place over there.

I still can?t figure out why the overwhelming majority of military men I encounter fully support Bush and this war in Iraq. Even though it has put them further into harms way?

Doesn?t make a lot of sense to me. Either they realize something that you don?t/can?t, or they are masochists for self punishment.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I'm sorry, but Iraq doesn't hijack airliners, target civilian office buildings, or murder 3000+ innocent people either, noob.

You are correct?.Iraq only paid suicide bombers families reimbursement so that people in Palestine will do that dirty work for them.

And from the looks of things Iraqs numbers on killing innocent people far exceeds the 3000+ count.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Oh boy, another armchair executioner to add to the short list. Yawn. I can't believe this late in death toll there are still people like cwjerome willing to come out of the woodwork to offer up other Americans lives in support of their candidate.

You war supporters should all be over there taking the place of a soldier who has up until now, avoided death. I am sure they would love the break and you can have your way and you can set up your "westernize governments" not only with your brave talk, but with your actual blood.

Godspeed cowards.

Interesting how the soldiers who are doing the fighting and dieing for this war can have such a different outlook on what is actually taking place over there.

I still can?t figure out why the overwhelming majority of military men I encounter fully support Bush and this war in Iraq. Even though it has put them further into harms way?

Like these soldiers?


http://forums.anandtech.com/me...9612&enterthread=y

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Oh boy, another armchair executioner to add to the short list. Yawn. I can't believe this late in death toll there are still people like cwjerome willing to come out of the woodwork to offer up other Americans lives in support of their candidate.

You war supporters should all be over there taking the place of a soldier who has up until now, avoided death. I am sure they would love the break and you can have your way and you can set up your "westernize governments" not only with your brave talk, but with your actual blood.

Godspeed cowards.

Interesting how the soldiers who are doing the fighting and dieing for this war can have such a different outlook on what is actually taking place over there.

I still can?t figure out why the overwhelming majority of military men I encounter fully support Bush and this war in Iraq. Even though it has put them further into harms way?

Doesn?t make a lot of sense to me. Either they realize something that you don?t/can?t, or they are masochists for self punishment.

Yep, and black and white posters like you who have talked to "military men" who support your views can now speak for all the active duty troops in Iraq. As stated, go put your life down, come back in 2-3 years and tell me the same thing. Until then, you are not the mouthpeice for the American soldier nor am I. But I certainly don't have the balls to tell one of their loved ones that their life was lost for a just cause. Happy that you do!

I am sure your flippant attitude will be a big hit in the barracks when you arrive. I can see it now, "Come on guys, cheer up, we are helping the Iraqi people gain their freedom!". Oh to be a fly on that tent.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: conjur
Like these soldiers?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...9612&enterthread=y

I?m honestly surprised that out of the hundreds of thousands of people that our military comprises of, that there are a few of them against our efforts over there. :roll:

It defies the mind?sort of like there being a conservative or two on these boards.

Anyone who has ever been to a military base, interacted with our soldiers, can tell you that these exceptions to the rule do not make up the rule.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Yep, and black and white posters like you who have talked to "military men" who support your views can now speak for all the active duty troops in Iraq. As stated, go put your life down, come back in 2-3 years and tell me the same thing. Until then, you are not the mouthpeice for the American soldier nor am I. But I certainly don't have the balls to tell one of their loved ones that their life was lost for a just cause. Happy that you do!

I am sure your flippant attitude will be a big hit in the barracks when you arrive. I can see it now, "Come on guys, cheer up, we are helping the Iraqi people gain their freedom!". Oh to be a fly on that tent.

Comared to someone who would outright tell our military men that they are being deployed and dieing for a false cause, a misdirection/diversion, and/or an outright mistake?.I wouldn?t be surprised if I became their optimistic little ray of sunshine for the day.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: conjur
Like these soldiers?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...9612&enterthread=y

I?m honestly surprised that out of the hundreds of thousands of people that our military comprises of, that there are a few of them against our efforts over there. :roll:

It defies the mind?sort of like there being a conservative or two on these boards.

Anyone who has ever been to a military base, interacted with our soldiers, can tell you that these exceptions to the rule do not make up the rule.

Wow, for someone who hangs out with military as much as you claim to, you should be wearing the good old stars and stripes. I know I did. No one had to come take me, I gladly enlisted. Now is your chance. Chop chop. I will pray for your safe return as the only way I could possibly respect someone so flippant with other peoples lives is if that person actually grows the stones to BE one of those people in harms way. There is a big world out there mockery, outside the safety of the American military bases that is. Go be all that you can be.

 

[imported_judge]

Originally posted by: element
To pull support for the war. It's not wrong war wrong place wrong time kerry fans.

What IS wrong, is pulling support for the war at this juncture. Where where you chickensh!ts before the war started? Now is the time to support the president and support our troops in Iraq not play monday morning quarterback.

i suport president if i feel what he is doing is correct, otherwise i will not suport him

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Yep, and black and white posters like you who have talked to "military men" who support your views can now speak for all the active duty troops in Iraq. As stated, go put your life down, come back in 2-3 years and tell me the same thing. Until then, you are not the mouthpeice for the American soldier nor am I. But I certainly don't have the balls to tell one of their loved ones that their life was lost for a just cause. Happy that you do!

I am sure your flippant attitude will be a big hit in the barracks when you arrive. I can see it now, "Come on guys, cheer up, we are helping the Iraqi people gain their freedom!". Oh to be a fly on that tent.

Comared to someone who would outright tell our military men that they are being deployed and dieing for a false cause, a misdirection/diversion, and/or an outright mistake?.I wouldn?t be surprised if I became their optimistic little ray of sunshine for the day.

Having been one of those military men, I would welcome the notion that not all the sheep at home were bartering with my life. You would be a little ray of something, that is for sure.
:roll:

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Wow, for someone who hangs out with military as much as you claim to, you should be wearing the good old stars and stripes. I know I did. No one had to come take me, I gladly enlisted. Now is your chance. Chop chop. I will pray for your safe return as the only way I could possibly respect someone so flippant with other peoples lives is if that person actually grows the stones to BE one of those people in harms way. There is a big world out there mockery, outside the safety of the American military bases that is. Go be all that you can be.

Excuse me while I waddle in the disbelief of you joining this nations armed forces. For some reason I find that as believable as me joining the Peace Corps?..

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Wow, for someone who hangs out with military as much as you claim to, you should be wearing the good old stars and stripes. I know I did. No one had to come take me, I gladly enlisted. Now is your chance. Chop chop. I will pray for your safe return as the only way I could possibly respect someone so flippant with other peoples lives is if that person actually grows the stones to BE one of those people in harms way. There is a big world out there mockery, outside the safety of the American military bases that is. Go be all that you can be.

Excuse me while I waddle in the disbelief of you joining this nations armed forces. For some reason I find that as believable as me joining the Peace Corps?..

Waddle all you want civilian man. I served my country during a time of relative peace. I am damn thankful, too. I would hate to be in today's army with people like you chearleading my presence in Iraq. Pft.

EDIT: and I think we have both pissed in this thread enough for tonight, don't you? Take it to PM as my view of people that support this war is not going to change.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Yep, and black and white posters like you who have talked to "military men" who support your views can now speak for all the active duty troops in Iraq. As stated, go put your life down, come back in 2-3 years and tell me the same thing. Until then, you are not the mouthpeice for the American soldier nor am I. But I certainly don't have the balls to tell one of their loved ones that their life was lost for a just cause. Happy that you do!

I am sure your flippant attitude will be a big hit in the barracks when you arrive. I can see it now, "Come on guys, cheer up, we are helping the Iraqi people gain their freedom!". Oh to be a fly on that tent.

Comared to someone who would outright tell our military men that they are being deployed and dieing for a false cause, a misdirection/diversion, and/or an outright mistake?.I wouldn?t be surprised if I became their optimistic little ray of sunshine for the day.

There ya go. Don't tell the poor boys the truth. Bush needs hero's so he can pull this out of his ass. What a good little tin soilder you'd make, I think you should go sign up and volenteer for Iraq. Your fearless leader would be proud of your conviction!!

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
There ya go. Don't tell the poor boys the truth. Bush needs hero's so he can pull this out of his ass. What a good little tin soilder you'd make, I think you should go sign up and volenteer for Iraq. Your fearless leader would be proud of your conviction!!

This truth you speak of revolves exclusively around your opinion.

Just as there were people telling our military men not to go to Europe and die for a global war that Americans shouldn?t be a part of, we have people like you and umbrella against removing Saddam from power and creating a Democracy in Iraq.

Much like then, I think I know what side of history you guys will fall on.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
There ya go. Don't tell the poor boys the truth. Bush needs hero's so he can pull this out of his ass. What a good little tin soilder you'd make, I think you should go sign up and volenteer for Iraq. Your fearless leader would be proud of your conviction!!

This truth you speak of revolves exclusively around your opinion.

Just as there were people telling our military men not to go to Europe and die for a global war that Americans shouldn?t be a part of, we have people like you and umbrella against removing Saddam from power and creating a Democracy in Iraq.

Much like then, I think I know what side of history you guys will fall on.

My opinion is every bit as valid as your opinion is.

You still trying to say we went to war to remove Saddam from power? Do you think anybody is buying it? Are the Iraqis dancing in the streets? Does it make you feel morally superior to those of us who critizize Bush's poorly planned invasion?

Do you really beleive that the majority of our troops aren't smart enough to figure out for themselves that there are no WMD's in Iraq? That the insurgency is getting worse, not better? That we still don't have Osama bin Laden? That there is no end in sight?

If you recall, we didn't preemptivley start the war in Europe and we stayed out of it as long as we could which gave us the chance to properly plan and prepare for the war. To use that example to claim you know "what side of history you guys will fall on" only shows your blind faith in what your told. You would make a good soilder, why don't you sign up and put your body where your mouth is.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You still trying to say we went to war to remove Saddam from power? Do you think anybody is buying it? Are the Iraqis dancing in the streets? Does it make you feel morally superior to those of us who critizize Bush's poorly planned invasion?

Let me guess?.The war was exclusively about OIL? lol

I think any rational person can concede that the Iraq War is an action being taken in efforts of remodeling/coercing the current structure of Middle-East.

Do you really beleive that the majority of our troops aren't smart enough to figure out for themselves that there are no WMD's in Iraq? That the insurgency is getting worse, not better? That we still don't have Osama bin Laden? That there is no end in sight?

Sorry, Dot?.I doubt anyone can conceivably answer all of those questions that history has yet to answer.

If you recall, we didn't preemptivley start the war in Europe and we stayed out of it as long as we could which gave us the chance to properly plan and prepare for the war.

We held out for 13 years and 16 U.N. (err?LON) sanctions before going to war against Germany? Interesting?.

To use that example to claim you know "what side of history you guys will fall on" only shows your blind faith in what your told. You would make a good soilder, why don't you sign up and put your body where your mouth is.

As fun as it would be to fight to protect this hodge-podge assortment of ungrateful pacifists we currently have residing in America today, I'll respectfully decline.

As I suggest everyone do before volunteering to join our armed forces.