WTF!!!!!! - Virginia Tech

[Muse]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Atheus


It would seem to me the idea is to make sure the *murderer* never had a gun in the first place, not to make sure everyone else has one too...

It's easy to get a gun illegally, just as it's easy to get illegal drugs. If you're willing to murder people, I doubt that obeying the law is at the top of your priorities.

If you banned guns, those who are willing to obtain them illegally would still be able to get them, whereas the law abiding citizens would be disarmed.

Yeah, that's the argument the NRA makes and those sympathetic with their position -- i.e. all the millions of gun owners in the US who don't want to give up their guns. "If you make guns illegal, only outlaws will have guns."

Well, duh! The thing of it is that it will take a long time for this gun happy country to get over it. It won't happen in 2-3 years. It will take a generation for it to really start working, but it will work. You have to make it illegal (highly illegal) to have, distribute, manufacture, adapt, hide, smuggle, cache and use guns. The idea that you are safe because you have guns is trash.

what alternate universe do you live in?

The same one you do. Try thinking outside the box you live in.

 

[Soybomb]

Well, it's already illegal to murder people. That's not the issue. The problem is that it's too damned easy to get firearms.

I've asked you before and you've not repsonses but I'll ask again, how do you propose we reach this firearm free utopia? Should we spend billions on firearm control so that they're as hard to get as drugs?

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Soybomb

Well, duh! The thing of it is that it will take a long time for this gun happy country to get over it. It won't happen in 2-3 years. It will take a generation for it to really start working, but it will work. You have to make it illegal (highly illegal) to have, distribute, manufacture, adapt, hide, smuggle, cache and use guns. The idea that you are safe because you have guns is trash.

So it'll be like the war on drugs? How much longer til people quit having cocaine?

Drugs and firearms are very different issues. There are a lot of parallels, but to try to prove that gun control, specifically banning gun ownership by pointing out the failure of attempts to control illegal drug use is missing the point. You know, people to can use cocaine until they have a heart attack and it won't affect me. Just how much do people really care about drug use compared to a tragedy like this? Drugs screw people up, they are associated with plenty of serious problems, but I believe that the proliferation of firearms is an epidemic of a different type. People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Muse

I disagree. Banning firearms can happen in the USA. It won't happen soon, but it can. They did it in the U.K., they can do it here. It is not "impossible." Lots of things are impossible, but banning firearms for private citizens isn't one of them. You say you can furnish "a hundred different reasons" but have failed to provide even one.

Gun control is a broad and open-ended concept and at the extreme end, is "banning firearms for private use." You note that "Gun control is the only reasonable political answer to this kind of situation." It all spins on how far you take it.

Yes, firearms (in particular the industry, as you note) run deep in the USA. All the more reason to dig deep to root out the problem.

You are advocating stripping away one of our Constitutional rights. This isn't to be taken lightly. You're just as well to take away our freedom of speech.

Personally I do not own guns but I would help strike down any attempt to abridge my rights. You are being completely reckless.

Also, banning guns will not make them go away, they'll just leave the hands of lawful gun owners. Criminals will still be able to easily get them. Why don't you try banning meth? That's right, it's already banned but it's still prevalent. The demand for them is still there, so a supply will be there.

 

[imported_Smurf]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: Soybomb

Well, duh! The thing of it is that it will take a long time for this gun happy country to get over it. It won't happen in 2-3 years. It will take a generation for it to really start working, but it will work. You have to make it illegal (highly illegal) to have, distribute, manufacture, adapt, hide, smuggle, cache and use guns. The idea that you are safe because you have guns is trash.

So it'll be like the war on drugs? How much longer til people quit having cocaine?

Drugs and firearms are very different issues. There are a lot of parallels, but to try to prove that gun control, specifically banning gun ownership by pointing out the failure of attempts to control illegal drug use is missing the point. You know, people to can use cocaine until they have a heart attack and it won't affect me. Just how much do people really care about drug use compared to a tragedy like this? Drugs screw people up, they are associated with plenty of serious problems, but I believe that the proliferation of firearms is an epidemic of a different type. People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

Here's a good video to explain why gun control laws are "Bullshit" (Penn & Teller):

http://www.washingtonceasefire.com/content/view/47/45/

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Muse

Drugs and firearms are very different issues. There are a lot of parallels, but to try to prove that gun control, specifically banning gun ownership by pointing out the failure of attempts to control illegal drug use is missing the point. You know, people to can use cocaine until they have a heart attack and it won't affect me. Just how much do people really care about drug use compared to a tragedy like this? Drugs screw people up, they are associated with plenty of serious problems, but I believe that the proliferation of firearms is an epidemic of a different type. People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

You missed his point. He's pointing out that it's possible to transport an illegal item and deliver it to the recipient without it ever being detected. Whether it's a gun or a kilo of cocaine in that box is irrelevant. It's the fact that it's illegal and it still got here.

The people in London aren't shooting each other, but they aren't stabbing each other, either. The root cause is violence, not the tools available to carry out that violence.

You cannot stop people from obtaining illegal items. Whether it's drugs, guns, pirated software, etc- if someone on Earth is able to produce it and it's able to be transported, it'll be available.

The crackheads in the city are high on drugs. Not legal drugs, illegal drugs. They're armed. Not with a legally obtained gun, but an illegally obtained one. They'll kill you. Not legally, but illegally. The law means nothing to them and only to an out-of-touch idealist will your system actually work.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Soybomb

But I contend that the mere prevalence of guns contributes to the pervasive violent ethos of America.

Maybe its just crappy parenting and the culture that parents let their kids grow up in? How are you going to disarm gangs who make their money selling already heavily completely banned goods? We can't keep them from getting cocaine but we can keep them from getting guns?

Its not as catchy as a song, but I could link you to countless studies showing somewhere between 800k - 2.5 million defensive uses of guns annually. Would you disarm those people? Remember we're talking about women protecting themselves from rapists, elderly protecting themselves from home invaders, mothers protecting children....guns are a tremendous equalizer of physical force and that is often needed.

OK, you claim this can be substantiated. Prove it.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: Soybomb

But I contend that the mere prevalence of guns contributes to the pervasive violent ethos of America.

Maybe its just crappy parenting and the culture that parents let their kids grow up in? How are you going to disarm gangs who make their money selling already heavily completely banned goods? We can't keep them from getting cocaine but we can keep them from getting guns?

Its not as catchy as a song, but I could link you to countless studies showing somewhere between 800k - 2.5 million defensive uses of guns annually. Would you disarm those people? Remember we're talking about women protecting themselves from rapists, elderly protecting themselves from home invaders, mothers protecting children....guns are a tremendous equalizer of physical force and that is often needed.

OK, you claim this can be substantiated. Prove it.

I think you should address the point he made: "We can't keep them from getting cocaine but we can keep them from getting guns?"

How do you really expect that to work?

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: ChAoTiCpInOy
The easiest way to keep this from happening is to get rid of the amendment that deals with the right to bear arms. This is no longer the right time or place to have that amendment, that was when citizens had to protect themselves from invders. But now, it has to be seen that the right to bear arms is not used to protect oneself but to inflict pain on others.

Well, that is simplistic, but the fact is that a one shot-then-you-have-to-reload-it musket is a far cry from the gamut of semi and fully automatic weapons that enjoy the protection of the 2nd Ammendment. I'm for rethinking the whole thing in light of the current situation.

 

[KeypoX]

Originally posted by: roguerower
Within the past two weeks my college has had two (2) bomb threats and classes in those and surrounding buildings were all cancelled. I just found out that there was a shooting in one of the dorms just a couple of minutes ago.

One complete side of campus is locked down with cops, I just had a cop with a loaded shotgun walk into my class and tell us to stay put.

EDIT: Thankyou for editting the post ATOT Mod

Holy crap i can't believe you said this was awesome...

In a finer note ... we need better police what we have now is so fcking pointless. Our cops are pointless. They are fat and not trained to do anything but write tickets. This should be a wake up call for all americans that your fat ass brother in law that is a cop should not be one. He is pointless and gets paid for doing nothing. I feel so bad for these families that have dead children. I feel so terrible for the families involved. If the cops would have moved in faster, if the campus wasnt so stupid and done nothing about a killing on campus and allowing the students to be in harms way. Nearly 3 hours of murder in a isolated location ... wow incredible. Our police force and anyone in charge of this type of thing need way way more training.


I am very upset about the little punk involved in this it is his fault but i think some of the murders could

also is the email from University of Florida "

Dear students, faculty, staff, concerned parents and others in the
university community:

The deaths of 32 people at the hands of a gunman Monday at Virginia Tech
have stunned the entire nation, especially those of us in academia. Our
thoughts go out to the victims and to those who lost loved ones in this
heinous and senseless act.

In the wake of this horrific event, I know your concerns, like mine, have
turned to the question of how prepared we are at the University of Florida
if such an event occurred here.

First, the University of Florida Police Department, a nationally and state
accredited organization, trains regularly for a variety of possible
emergency situations, including just such a scenario: a gunman on campus.
UFPD, which enjoys highly successful collaboration with law enforcement
agencies throughout the state, conducts exercises in conjunction with the
Gainesville Police Department and the Alachua County Sheriffs Office and
has a thorough and extensive response plan. For security reasons, I cannot
go into the details of that plan, but rest assured that our law
enforcement agencies consider every contingency and work hard together to
provide a safe secure campus environment. With the lives and well-being of
more than 50,000 young people at stake, we take this responsibility
seriously.

We also have in place an extensive communication plan that combines mass
simultaneous e-mail notification, UF home page postings, text messaging
and media alerts to get out emergency information as quickly as possible.
Our experiences during the 2005 hurricane season provided a good
opportunity to hone those plans and improve upon them. UFPD and other
campus officials and community leaders will be meeting in the days and
weeks to come to review what happened at Virginia Tech and see if there
are any lessons to be learned and applied here at UF.

Perhaps the most important security measure we can all take is to pay
attention to whats going on around us. Take notice of unusual behavior in
others. Call 911 immediately if you see someone on campus with a weapon.
If you or someone you know needs counseling, please take advantage of our
staff of highly trained professional counselors. Service is available 24
hours a day, seven days a week.

We at the University of Florida are especially sensitive to the type of
situation that occurred at Virginia Tech. Seventeen years ago, we had our
own nightmare the murders of five students. Although those did not occur
on campus, they affected the university profoundly. To this day, our
approach to campus security is influenced by those events of 1990. For
instance, campus housing is locked 24 hours a day, and a key is required
to access not only each building but also each floor within each building.

Finally, the university has planned a candlelight vigil for later this
week in memory of those whose lives were lost at Virginia Tech. I hope
those of you who can will join us.

Keeping the campus community safe and secure is our No. 1 priority at the
University of Florida, and we will continue to seek new ways to fulfill
that mission. Life is far too precious to take for granted.

Sincerely,

Bernie Machen
President "

This is prob a bunch of fluff and might have just as easy happen here, though i hope not

 

[quikah]

Originally posted by: Muse
People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2013804,00.html


I don't understand the reasoning behind having a gun making things dangerous. I know LOTS of people that carry pocket knives and leathermans. Not a single stab wound in the bunch (given or received). not sure why them carrying a gun would suddenly change things.

 

[Soybomb]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: Soybomb

Well, duh! The thing of it is that it will take a long time for this gun happy country to get over it. It won't happen in 2-3 years. It will take a generation for it to really start working, but it will work. You have to make it illegal (highly illegal) to have, distribute, manufacture, adapt, hide, smuggle, cache and use guns. The idea that you are safe because you have guns is trash.

So it'll be like the war on drugs? How much longer til people quit having cocaine?

Drugs and firearms are very different issues. There are a lot of parallels, but to try to prove that gun control, specifically banning gun ownership by pointing out the failure of attempts to control illegal drug use is missing the point. You know, people to can use cocaine until they have a heart attack and it won't affect me. Just how much do people really care about drug use compared to a tragedy like this? Drugs screw people up, they are associated with plenty of serious problems, but I believe that the proliferation of firearms is an epidemic of a different type. People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

You're talking about the potential threat to yourself. Thats not at all what I'm interested in at all. Lets say guns are a tremendous threat to your safety, magnitudes higher than drugs. I want to know how you're going to keep them out of the hands of criminals. As a country we've decided that drugs are a pretty big threat and we devote billions of dollars a year to keeping them out of the hands of criminals. Despite those efforts I think we'd all agree drugs aren't hard at all to get. I want the hard details on you're going to keep anything that people really want from getting to them be it drugs, guns, or fuzzy bunny slippers. So far we can't do it. And of course I assume you'd agree that many people need the use of guns so you're going to have alot of legal guns in the country too, something we can't say about most hard drugs.

OK, you claim this can be substantiated. Prove it.

There are dozens of such studies, would the Department of Justice study "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms" estimate of 1.5 million uses work for you? You could also look up the work of Dr. Kleck, a FSU criminologist who puts it at 2 million a year. I'll let us be conservative though and go with the department of justice numbers.

I think you should address the point he made: "We can't keep them from getting cocaine but we can keep them from getting guns?"

Thank you, I was worried I was being unclear. This is exactly the question the question I'm trying to get Muse to address.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Muse

Drugs and firearms are very different issues. There are a lot of parallels, but to try to prove that gun control, specifically banning gun ownership by pointing out the failure of attempts to control illegal drug use is missing the point. You know, people to can use cocaine until they have a heart attack and it won't affect me. Just how much do people really care about drug use compared to a tragedy like this? Drugs screw people up, they are associated with plenty of serious problems, but I believe that the proliferation of firearms is an epidemic of a different type. People are using heroin in London, but they aren't shooting each other.

You missed his point. He's pointing out that it's possible to transport an illegal item and deliver it to the recipient without it ever being detected. Whether it's a gun or a kilo of cocaine in that box is irrelevant. It's the fact that it's illegal and it still got here.

The people in London aren't shooting each other, but they aren't stabbing each other, either. The root cause is violence, not the tools available to carry out that violence.

You cannot stop people from obtaining illegal items. Whether it's drugs, guns, pirated software, etc- if someone on Earth is able to produce it and it's able to be transported, it'll be available.

The crackheads in the city are high on drugs. Not legal drugs, illegal drugs. They're armed. Not with a legally obtained gun, but an illegally obtained one. They'll kill you. Not legally, but illegally. The law means nothing to them and only to an out-of-touch idealist will your system actually work.

Muse: cut your losses. Just stop now. You can't fight facts. You lack logic. Go home. Go to sleep and dream of your socialist utopia.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: SpanishFry

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I just heard a good point being made on the news.

Even in a combat zone, it's hard for most people (even soldiers) to fire so many bullets into other people and continue doing so at a high rate.

Seeing bullets tear through a person right in front of you, the blood, the horror...a normal person's mind would have shut down to deal with the situation.

This guy must have been in a total haze to have been able to do this to others.

No haze required.

I don't see what the problem is. People bleed when bullets pass through their bodies, shock and awe. So horrible I know, that we are made of squishy tissue that requires oxygen carrying blood. What do people expect to happen?

But then again I don't get people that can't handle an anatomy course without feeling icky... so... thats just me. Maybe I should have been a SEAL... or a Doctor...? Hmm

wtf? u r teh awes0me!!

there's a difference between knowing what a human being's insides are made of, operating on a human being to save their life, and systematically destroying them.

****** dumbass

Save your hate and anger for the dumbass that shot up a school and killed 32 people.

I'm simply pointing out how sheltered people are; this constant clamor of ribbons and candle light vigils and teddy bears and flowers every time something like this happens, without disrespect for the people hurt by this, is just as sickening to me as someone who would do this in the first place.

Be lucky you live in a country where you don't live in a mortar riddled mud block house and awaken to the sound of gun fire every 15 minutes.

"omg teh red stuff came out, I think it was blood *faint* " :disgust:

 

[Cabages]

Alright people, if you didnt see this earlier in the thread, the gun control talk is HERE.

I think some would be appreciative if you would talk about it there.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Think a shooting and 32 deaths are bad and reason to blame guns for all of societies problems? Yea it sucks that this happened, but blaming a material object for what this man did is just as insane as he was.

Consider this imaginary nightmare scenario: covertly locking all the doors, barring all the windows the night before, disabling the fire suppression systems and alarms, and methodically setting fires to the building for maximum spread with pre-cached ignition sources. And many of the materials and fuels probably wouldn't even be questioned in an engineering department. Cause a diversion on the major roadway access points to cause auto accidents during rush hour to deprive fire crews of timely access with vehicles and equipment for several blocks . By the time anyone knew what was going on they would all be trapped in a burning building with no escape. No gun, not even a knife, and by the time it all goes down, you could be long gone and not have to blow your own brains out when the police arrive. And not even a person with a concealed gun would be able to do anything about it. Recipe for a war zone and nightmare scenario, and no gun required.

If you think the sight of a little blood is horrific, try the smell of burnt flesh and the sound of a hundreds people screaming as their blood boils and their face turns to charcoal while they are still breathing.

How many hundreds of lives would be lost in this situation and how much property damage would be caused? What inanimate object would you blame for this? Matches? Wood?

Do not underestimate the power of the human mind intent on doing evil. People, and nothing else, has been the problem since man started bashing each others skulls in with femurs.

Don't be brainwashed just because every time you here the word 'crime' on TV you see a picture of a gun and handcuffs. fvking propagandists, the leftist media. They could have a 5 min snippet on 'crime' having to do with welfare fraud and jaywalking, and they will have a icon with a gun and a 'no smoking sign' on it on the screen every time they say 'crime' and the mass media sheeple apparently have bought it judging by some of the comments I have observed since this incident occurred.

I think we could do a lot of good in this country if we started by throwing away our TVs.. not the screen, and not even movies on DVD or video games, just the network television sewer pipes.

Would you shut the hell up already? There is a thread in P&N for the gun talk.

 

[Mill]

STOP THE STUPID GUN TALK. There is a thread in P&N for that.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: msnbcnnbcbs
folks,

looks like a bizarre love triangle

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a...l?in_article_id=449073&in_page_id=1811

If you look around you can find the girls myspace, along with pictures of the bottom two.

not posting it here unless its ok.

EDIT: sorry if this has been posted already, i didnt look through all the last few pages.

The link here looks very reliable based on everything else I've been hearing. All the facts correspond, and they are plentiful.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Mill

Would you shut the hell up already? There is a thread in P&N for the gun talk.

My my... don't forget to take your meds.

I will pounce illogical and irrational judgments in this or the other thread wherever people happen to make them, esp slimy people in here that think they are being sneaky by regurgitating their propaganda at the end of their 'condolences'

I will not allow an assault on myself and my country by a few mentally handicapped overly sensitive people who forgot to take their Prozac this morning to go unchallenged, because of the actions of one messed of piece of crap.

And that particular post was a scenario that could occur with or without guns, to illustrate my point that we simply have messed up people in our society that will stop at nothing in their quest to harm others, not 'gun talk'

 

[Rogodin2]

In the deep dark shadow of the war where we are killing hundreds and thousands of Iraq's civilians-this is only a small droplet.

Rogo

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
In the deep dark shadow of the war where we are killing hundreds and thousands of Iraq's civilians who are using AK47s and explosives against Americans and fellow Iraqis-this is only a small droplet.

Rogo

fixed

 

[Rogodin2]

Nice to see someone that doesn't work for BLACKWATER to chime in

The civilians don't have water, food, or electricity, an AK47 is untenable.

Poopsnake.

Rogo

 

[da loser]

why can't they link cho to the first shooting? was the woman not his gf? or was that just speculation?

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: da loser
why can't they link cho to the first shooting? was the woman not his gf? or was that just speculation?

Cicumstantial evidence doesn't cut it. It's pretty obvious he did it, they just need that 100% irrefutable proof now. Even though the guns matched, that doesn't mean he did it.

 

[theslug]

So does anyone else find it offensive that some non-Americans have to act all superior when a tragedy like this happens? They go on about how it couldn't happen in their country, or bash us for having more relaxed gun laws than them, or worse yet, people in various hate groups laugh about what happened. It's ridiculous and insensitive.

I'm not trying to generalize here though so no offense to those outside the U.S. who are actually sympathetic to what happened. I know it's just a small handful of people.