WTO Good or Bad?

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

And they both are, oh, can't we call nazis nazis now, is this a new fucking rule your dumb arse invented?

BoomerD doesn't like immigrants, he doesn't give a shit if they are legal or illegal.

He's a socialist and a nationalist, now what do you call that you stupid twat?

Butterbean is another animal, and i didn't claim he was a Nazi, i claimed he was a Neo-Nazist which he is and quite frankly, so are you.

The lot of you are nationelistic punkarses, the difference is that while BoomerD is a socialist that want sthe state to support his nationals you think that only you national friends should be allowed to make a living.

That PER DEFIFUCKINGNITION makes BoomerD a traditional Natonalist socialist or Nazist if if you will and the two of you Neo Nazists.

That is the fucking way it is, deny it all you want but that is the way it FUCKIN IS!

Well Herr goosestepper, in spite of what you claim is a total anti-immigrant stance on my part, you apparently intentionally misunderstand...
I'm NOT anti-immigrant, but I AM anti-illegal immigrant, PLUS, I DO believe that the USA has the right and responsibility to pick and choose who we let into our country. Gawd forbid we end up like Britian, where your Lord Chief Justice (another powdered-wig fop) states that Sharia Law is permissible in settling disputes among Muslims...setting up a separate class of people. Soon enough, you'll all be bowing to Muslim Sharia law, Muslim or not...Look at the riots in France, where the immigrants torched large portions of Paris...uncontrolled immigration is fine for unpopulated countries, which the USA was 100+ years ago, but it's not good for populated countries. Countries should have the right and IMO, DO have the responsibility to control immigration; to allow in people with education and skills the country needs, to control how many people from one country, region, and yes, one religion come to the country in a set timespan.
We DO believe in Freedom of Religion, the lack of which caused the English Pilgrims to come here in the first place, BUT, no religion has the right to dominate/control another.
(something our fundies just don't understand)

The more you come on here, rant and rave, swear at everyone, act like a rude, spoiled and unmannered 14 year old with your insults, "PER DEFIFUCKINGNITION" and other childish bullshit, the more I disbelieve that you're a British officer, and more I believe (as others have opined) that you are just a teenager or perhaps a young 20-something. The very few British officers I've had the pleasure to meet in my years have all been unfailingly polite, VERY well mannered, and a pleasure to talk to. You are none of those.

You've proven yourself to be a rude boorish individual who deserves to be permabanned from this site. We welcome and cherish intelligent, insightful discussion. Why can't you offer either? All you offer is insults and piss-poor attitude.
Take a hike ya wanker.

 

[ViRGE]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but aren't they just doing the same thing we are? We go through a lot of trouble to protect our farm industries so that we're self-sufficient (largely so that should WW3 break out, we don't starve to death). The article isn't great on details, but as I'm reading it, it sounds like they just want to protect their farm industries like we do, although perhaps not for the same reasons.

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

And they both are, oh, can't we call nazis nazis now, is this a new fucking rule your dumb arse invented?

BoomerD doesn't like immigrants, he doesn't give a shit if they are legal or illegal.

He's a socialist and a nationalist, now what do you call that you stupid twat?

Butterbean is another animal, and i didn't claim he was a Nazi, i claimed he was a Neo-Nazist which he is and quite frankly, so are you.

The lot of you are nationelistic punkarses, the difference is that while BoomerD is a socialist that want sthe state to support his nationals you think that only you national friends should be allowed to make a living.

That PER DEFIFUCKINGNITION makes BoomerD a traditional Natonalist socialist or Nazist if if you will and the two of you Neo Nazists.

That is the fucking way it is, deny it all you want but that is the way it FUCKIN IS!

Well Herr goosestepper, in spite of what you claim is a total anti-immigrant stance on my part, you apparently intentionally misunderstand...
I'm NOT anti-immigrant, but I AM anti-illegal immigrant, PLUS, I DO believe that the USA has the right and responsibility to pick and choose who we let into our country. Gawd forbid we end up like Britian, where your Lord Chief Justice (another powdered-wig fop) states that Sharia Law is permissible in settling disputes among Muslims...setting up a separate class of people. Soon enough, you'll all be bowing to Muslim Sharia law, Muslim or not...Look at the riots in France, where the immigrants torched large portions of Paris...uncontrolled immigration is fine for unpopulated countries, which the USA was 100+ years ago, but it's not good for populated countries. Countries should have the right and IMO, DO have the responsibility to control immigration; to allow in people with education and skills the country needs, to control how many people from one country, region, and yes, one religion come to the country in a set timespan.
We DO believe in Freedom of Religion, the lack of which caused the English Pilgrims to come here in the first place, BUT, no religion has the right to dominate/control another.
(something our fundies just don't understand)

The more you come on here, rant and rave, swear at everyone, act like a rude, spoiled and unmannered 14 year old with your insults, "PER DEFIFUCKINGNITION" and other childish bullshit, the more I disbelieve that you're a British officer, and more I believe (as others have opined) that you are just a teenager or perhaps a young 20-something. The very few British officers I've had the pleasure to meet in my years have all been unfailingly polite, VERY well mannered, and a pleasure to talk to. You are none of those.

You've proven yourself to be a rude boorish individual who deserves to be permabanned from this site. We welcome and cherish intelligent, insightful discussion. Why can't you offer either? All you offer is insults and piss-poor attitude.
Take a hike ya wanker.

I recall him saying he was with the SAS, now I kind of wonder, cause I always thought special forces training was designed to weed out hot heads, unless somehow P&N is capable of bringing out the worst in even the best trained military personnel. In which case, perhaps Anandtech could get a defense contract for a study on the effects of message boards and ptsd.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Gawd forbid we end up like Britian, where your Lord Chief Justice (another powdered-wig fop) states that Sharia Law is permissible in settling disputes among Muslims...setting up a separate class of people. Soon enough, you'll all be bowing to Muslim Sharia law, Muslim or not...

That's complete BS, as was discussed previously.

What he's allowing is for those who follow the Muslim religion and prefer for their *civil matters* to follow the rules of that religion, *within the limits of British Law*, to be able to set up their contracts *for which the parties have discretion on the terms* to be able to mutually agree to use the terms of Sharia Law.

Your hyperbolic comments are about as accurate as saying that a bookstore opening a shelf on Sharia Law 'sets up a separate class of people', or that having a market that caters to Muslim tastes and follows Sharia rules *within the British Law* 'sets up a separate class of people', since others may not want the same preferences. It's not saying that for *criminal* matters or areas where people are not allowed discretion - e.g., selling your four year old child for slavery - that they can do anything different.

Your slippery slope from that error to 'having to bow to Sharia Law' is xenophobic bigotry.

Even your comment about the Justice being a 'Fop' is anti-gay. What's your problem? Why do you try to outdo JohnofSheffield's behavior if you don't like it?

(I'd take a replacement for our own Chief Justice any day, for what it's worth).

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Craig234
That's complete BS, as was discussed previously.

What he's allowing is for those who follow the Muslim religion and prefer for their *civil matters* to follow the rules of that religion, *within the limits of British Law*, to be able to set up their contracts *for which the parties have discretion on the terms* to be able to mutually agree to use the terms of Sharia Law.

Your hyperbolic comments are about as accurate as saying that a bookstore opening a shelf on Sharia Law 'sets up a separate class of people', or that having a market that caters to Muslim tastes and follows Sharia rules *within the British Law* 'sets up a separate class of people', since others may not want the same preferences. It's not saying that for *criminal* matters or areas where people are not allowed discretion - e.g., selling your four year old child for slavery - that they can do anything different.

Your slippery slope from that error to 'having to bow to Sharia Law' is xenophobic bigotry.

Even your comment about the Justice being a 'Fop' is anti-gay. What's your problem? Why do you try to outdo JohnofSheffield's behavior if you don't like it?

(I'd take a replacement for our own Chief Justice any day, for what it's worth).

Craig, "fop" is anti-gay? do you not know it's usage? ( I didn't say "i love you."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fop

As for a comparison to our own cheif justice...when you get down to it, they're both probably so bought and paid for the difference is negligible.
My "slippery slope" point is still valid. Allowing the Muslim community the right to a different set of laws sets up a separate class of people. The laws in a nation, (all of them) should be applied equally to all its citizens and legal residents.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTO, free trade agreements, UN, all that stinking crap has destroyed our economy. We wouldn't need cheaper products from China if we still had the type of work force we did 50 years ago. We should have taxed any corporation outsourcing the US economy to the point there was no cost savings doing so. If you want to do business in China, no problem. Sell to the Chinese workers manufacturing the product. What, they can't afford to buy them? I guess maybe you'll have to pay them more. Our manufacturing base is nearly dead and it's the politicians who signed us on to this garbage at the bequest of their corporate sponsors who are to blame. We could have created jobs in manufacturing in the Asian market to service the Asian market bringing up standards of living globally. Instead, we allowed our corporations to exploit the poor and destitute citizens of what was and really still is a third world nation to fatten their bottom line all the while selling the idea of "cheaper" goods to the idiotic American Public.

Destroyed our economy? Our economy is still the biggest in the world (outside of EU which is not a country), with low unemployment rate and top 10 GDP per capita. We got this good economy from opening our door and trading with other countries. And if you look at the rest of the world, there is no one successful economy achieved that through closing their door on trade.

WTO is a place for discussion, that's all. It is not an organization to force stuff onto people. Like every other diplomatic issues, countries talk, give some and take some and strike deals best suited for each country. Without a place like WTO to talk and discuss, international trade issue cannot be resolved and that slows trade between countries.

I am constantly amazed at people living in this one of the most successful economy complain about craps all day and try to reverse what worked for this countries. How many failed socialist and communist economy does it take for people to realize closing their door and too much protectionist policy will only destroy wealth.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTO, free trade agreements, UN, all that stinking crap has destroyed our economy. We wouldn't need cheaper products from China if we still had the type of work force we did 50 years ago. We should have taxed any corporation outsourcing the US economy to the point there was no cost savings doing so. If you want to do business in China, no problem. Sell to the Chinese workers manufacturing the product. What, they can't afford to buy them? I guess maybe you'll have to pay them more. Our manufacturing base is nearly dead and it's the politicians who signed us on to this garbage at the bequest of their corporate sponsors who are to blame. We could have created jobs in manufacturing in the Asian market to service the Asian market bringing up standards of living globally. Instead, we allowed our corporations to exploit the poor and destitute citizens of what was and really still is a third world nation to fatten their bottom line all the while selling the idea of "cheaper" goods to the idiotic American Public.

Destroyed our economy? Our economy is still the biggest in the world (outside of EU which is not a country), with low unemployment rate and top 10 GDP per capita. We got this good economy from opening our door and trading with other countries. And if you look at the rest of the world, there is no one successful economy achieved that through closing their door on trade.

WTO is a place for discussion, that's all. It is not an organization to force stuff onto people. Like every other diplomatic issues, countries talk, give some and take some and strike deals best suited for each country. Without a place like WTO to talk and discuss, international trade issue cannot be resolved and that slows trade between countries.

I am constantly amazed at people living in this one of the most successful economy complain about craps all day and try to reverse what worked for this countries. How many failed socialist and communist economy does it take for people to realize closing their door and too much protectionist policy will only destroy wealth.

Sure, our economy is the biggest in the world, but if ya haven't noticed, it's on the decline. We've replaced our manufacturing base with a service industry that pays less. Sure, our major corps. will thrive just fine. They'll find customers that can buy their crap somewhere, but pretty soon it won't be us. I don't understand how you and so many like you can say keeping our manufacturing base here is being protectionist. Or, maybe I can see why you say it, I just can't see how that's a bad thing. A majority of what's produced is consumed by those producing it and we've whittled down how much we produce here and are continually making that base smaller. What is wrong with producing something for $.85 in China and selling it to the Chinese for $1 and on the other hand manufacturing the same product in the states for $2.85 and selling it to an American for $3? I'll answer that for you. If you do that, then all the wealth can't be transferred to a few at the top, it stays mixed up. It baffles me how people cannot see this. Do yourself a favor the next time you're painting this rosy picture of our economy, go look up the Ginni coefficient for our country and then compare it to the rest of the world. The disparity in wealth possession in the states is right on par with most third world nations. There's also been a drastic increase in that disparity since we started shipping our factories out of the country. Are you getting the picture yet? Our economy is being made to serve the very few who possess the most of it. The remaining portion is being pried from our fingers while all the people sing "We've got the biggest economy in the world." You just don't realize you're not really a part of that economy any more.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTO, free trade agreements, UN, all that stinking crap has destroyed our economy. We wouldn't need cheaper products from China if we still had the type of work force we did 50 years ago. We should have taxed any corporation outsourcing the US economy to the point there was no cost savings doing so. If you want to do business in China, no problem. Sell to the Chinese workers manufacturing the product. What, they can't afford to buy them? I guess maybe you'll have to pay them more. Our manufacturing base is nearly dead and it's the politicians who signed us on to this garbage at the bequest of their corporate sponsors who are to blame. We could have created jobs in manufacturing in the Asian market to service the Asian market bringing up standards of living globally. Instead, we allowed our corporations to exploit the poor and destitute citizens of what was and really still is a third world nation to fatten their bottom line all the while selling the idea of "cheaper" goods to the idiotic American Public.

Destroyed our economy? Our economy is still the biggest in the world (outside of EU which is not a country), with low unemployment rate and top 10 GDP per capita. We got this good economy from opening our door and trading with other countries. And if you look at the rest of the world, there is no one successful economy achieved that through closing their door on trade.

WTO is a place for discussion, that's all. It is not an organization to force stuff onto people. Like every other diplomatic issues, countries talk, give some and take some and strike deals best suited for each country. Without a place like WTO to talk and discuss, international trade issue cannot be resolved and that slows trade between countries.

I am constantly amazed at people living in this one of the most successful economy complain about craps all day and try to reverse what worked for this countries. How many failed socialist and communist economy does it take for people to realize closing their door and too much protectionist policy will only destroy wealth.

Sure, our economy is the biggest in the world, but if ya haven't noticed, it's on the decline. We've replaced our manufacturing base with a service industry that pays less. Sure, our major corps. will thrive just fine. They'll find customers that can buy their crap somewhere, but pretty soon it won't be us. I don't understand how you and so many like you can say keeping our manufacturing base here is being protectionist. Or, maybe I can see why you say it, I just can't see how that's a bad thing. A majority of what's produced is consumed by those producing it and we've whittled down how much we produce here and are continually making that base smaller. What is wrong with producing something for $.85 in China and selling it to the Chinese for $1 and on the other hand manufacturing the same product in the states for $2.85 and selling it to an American for $3? I'll answer that for you. If you do that, then all the wealth can't be transferred to a few at the top, it stays mixed up. It baffles me how people cannot see this. Do yourself a favor the next time you're painting this rosy picture of our economy, go look up the Ginni coefficient for our country and then compare it to the rest of the world. The disparity in wealth possession in the states is right on par with most third world nations. There's also been a drastic increase in that disparity since we started shipping our factories out of the country. Are you getting the picture yet? Our economy is being made to serve the very few who possess the most of it. The remaining portion is being pried from our fingers while all the people sing "We've got the biggest economy in the world." You just don't realize you're not really a part of that economy any more.

The reason I can't see this is because your reasoning is so wrong. You're advocating a closed isolated protectionist market and history has shown that this doesn't work. Compare North Korea with South Korea. How is the wealth in North Korea distributed?

A closed isolated protectionist market only leads to inefficiencies. Imagine this at the state level. Let's say West Virginia can produce a computer for $399 (because their cost of living is so low it allows companies to pay workers a lower wage) but Maryland (which has a higher cost of living) can only produce this computer for $799. But in West Virginia, $399 is a lot of money so most people can't afford to buy this computer. So, the West Virginia factory shuts down (since they are not allowed to sell it in Maryland and because there is no market for computers in West Virginia). Meanwhile, consumers in Maryland are paying $799 for a computer that could be gotten for only $399 if they were only allowed to buy products from West Virginia.

Meanwhile, West Virginia remains a poor state. Marylanders overpay for their products and the $799 price prevents many Marylanders from owning a computer.

What happens if we have open trade between Maryland and West Virginia? Well, the West Virginia factory churns out lots of computers for $399. Many people in Maryland now can afford a personal computer. Unfortunately, the Maryland computer factory has to lay off some people for awhile and try to get more efficient. West Virginia's factories are doing great providing West Virginians with great jobs! West Virginia living standards increase! Workers begin to want higher wages because of the increasing living standards. Eventually, wages rise enough so the Maryland factory becomes competitive again and computer factory jobs return to Maryland.

The end result is that West Virginia benefits and Maryland benefits with open trade. Without open trade, West Virginia remains poor and only the very rich in Maryland can afford to own computers.

Remember in the past when we were enraged about Japanese cars selling in the US? I remember people holding news conferences using baseball bats to smash Japanese cars and urging Americans to "Buy American". They said the same things about Japan as they are now saying bout China.

Since then Japanese car companies have opened factories in the US (Nissan has factories in Tennessee) -- supplying us with good jobs. None of those warnings about Japan came true.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTO, free trade agreements, UN, all that stinking crap has destroyed our economy. We wouldn't need cheaper products from China if we still had the type of work force we did 50 years ago. We should have taxed any corporation outsourcing the US economy to the point there was no cost savings doing so. If you want to do business in China, no problem. Sell to the Chinese workers manufacturing the product. What, they can't afford to buy them? I guess maybe you'll have to pay them more. Our manufacturing base is nearly dead and it's the politicians who signed us on to this garbage at the bequest of their corporate sponsors who are to blame. We could have created jobs in manufacturing in the Asian market to service the Asian market bringing up standards of living globally. Instead, we allowed our corporations to exploit the poor and destitute citizens of what was and really still is a third world nation to fatten their bottom line all the while selling the idea of "cheaper" goods to the idiotic American Public.

Destroyed our economy? Our economy is still the biggest in the world (outside of EU which is not a country), with low unemployment rate and top 10 GDP per capita. We got this good economy from opening our door and trading with other countries. And if you look at the rest of the world, there is no one successful economy achieved that through closing their door on trade.

WTO is a place for discussion, that's all. It is not an organization to force stuff onto people. Like every other diplomatic issues, countries talk, give some and take some and strike deals best suited for each country. Without a place like WTO to talk and discuss, international trade issue cannot be resolved and that slows trade between countries.

I am constantly amazed at people living in this one of the most successful economy complain about craps all day and try to reverse what worked for this countries. How many failed socialist and communist economy does it take for people to realize closing their door and too much protectionist policy will only destroy wealth.

Sure, our economy is the biggest in the world, but if ya haven't noticed, it's on the decline. We've replaced our manufacturing base with a service industry that pays less. Sure, our major corps. will thrive just fine. They'll find customers that can buy their crap somewhere, but pretty soon it won't be us. I don't understand how you and so many like you can say keeping our manufacturing base here is being protectionist. Or, maybe I can see why you say it, I just can't see how that's a bad thing. A majority of what's produced is consumed by those producing it and we've whittled down how much we produce here and are continually making that base smaller. What is wrong with producing something for $.85 in China and selling it to the Chinese for $1 and on the other hand manufacturing the same product in the states for $2.85 and selling it to an American for $3? I'll answer that for you. If you do that, then all the wealth can't be transferred to a few at the top, it stays mixed up. It baffles me how people cannot see this. Do yourself a favor the next time you're painting this rosy picture of our economy, go look up the Ginni coefficient for our country and then compare it to the rest of the world. The disparity in wealth possession in the states is right on par with most third world nations. There's also been a drastic increase in that disparity since we started shipping our factories out of the country. Are you getting the picture yet? Our economy is being made to serve the very few who possess the most of it. The remaining portion is being pried from our fingers while all the people sing "We've got the biggest economy in the world." You just don't realize you're not really a part of that economy any more.

The reason I can't see this is because your reasoning is so wrong. You're advocating a closed isolated protectionist market and history has shown that this doesn't work. Compare North Korea with South Korea. How is the wealth in North Korea distributed?

A closed isolated protectionist market only leads to inefficiencies. Imagine this at the state level. Let's say West Virginia can produce a computer for $399 (because their cost of living is so low it allows companies to pay workers a lower wage) but Maryland (which has a higher cost of living) can only produce this computer for $799. But in West Virginia, $399 is a lot of money so most people can't afford to buy this computer. So, the West Virginia factory shuts down (since they are not allowed to sell it in Maryland and because there is no market for computers in West Virginia). Meanwhile, consumers in Maryland are paying $799 for a computer that could be gotten for only $399 if they were only allowed to buy products from West Virginia.

Meanwhile, West Virginia remains a poor state. Marylanders overpay for their products and the $799 price prevents many Marylanders from owning a computer.

What happens if we have open trade between Maryland and West Virginia? Well, the West Virginia factory churns out lots of computers for $399. Many people in Maryland now can afford a personal computer. Unfortunately, the Maryland computer factory has to lay off some people for awhile and try to get more efficient. West Virginia's factories are doing great providing West Virginians with great jobs! West Virginia living standards increase! Workers begin to want higher wages because of the increasing living standards. Eventually, wages rise enough so the Maryland factory becomes competitive again and computer factory jobs return to Maryland.

The end result is that West Virginia benefits and Maryland benefits with open trade. Without open trade, West Virginia remains poor and only the very rich in Maryland can afford to own computers.

Remember in the past when we were enraged about Japanese cars selling in the US? I remember people holding news conferences using baseball bats to smash Japanese cars and urging Americans to "Buy American". They said the same things about Japan as they are now saying bout China.

Since then Japanese car companies have opened factories in the US (Nissan has factories in Tennessee) -- supplying us with good jobs. None of those warnings about Japan came true.

You may want to rethink your North Korea reference. Their Ginni index is lower than ours by a significant margin. Ours is between 41 and 48 while theirs is 31. Lower is better in case you failed to look up what the Ginni coefficient is and how it works. Oh, South Korea is between 32 and 38 in case you were wondering.

Your logic between West Virginia and Maryland has merit, but imagine for a second that if the employees who wanted higher wages in West Virginia were executed because they wanted those higher wages and spoke up about it. How many more people would ask for higher wages after that. Your analogy depends on the premise that the workers live in a free society which the Chinese do not. Our corporations have moved manufacturing to China because there is a plethora of basically slave labor to choose from. This is where import taxes should be levied as there is no way American companies can compete with that. Also, the Japanese car companies IIRC opened factories in the US as a means to circumvent import taxes. Also, it costs a lot more to transport an automobile from an oversees location than a 20 oz. piece of plastic crap. Logistics and costs vary a great deal between automobiles and consumables.

All that aside, the basic premise is if you serve the market you are located in, everyone's standard of living increases over time. The Chinese worker may not need higher wages since his artificially low wages are made up for by the lower costs of products he has access to. Instead, we as a society pray on those in a weak position to elevate ourselves. Plenty of people will cry about the poor Vietnamese kid made to work in horrendous conditions for long hours to produce shoes, but they still go buy the Nike shoes don't they?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

You may want to rethink your North Korea reference. Their Ginni index is lower than ours by a significant margin. Ours is between 41 and 48 while theirs is 31. Lower is better in case you failed to look up what the Ginni coefficient is and how it works. Oh, South Korea is between 32 and 38 in case you were wondering.

Your logic between West Virginia and Maryland has merit, but imagine for a second that if the employees who wanted higher wages in West Virginia were executed because they wanted those higher wages and spoke up about it. How many more people would ask for higher wages after that. Your analogy depends on the premise that the workers live in a free society which the Chinese do not. Our corporations have moved manufacturing to China because there is a plethora of basically slave labor to choose from. This is where import taxes should be levied as there is no way American companies can compete with that. Also, the Japanese car companies IIRC opened factories in the US as a means to circumvent import taxes. Also, it costs a lot more to transport an automobile from an oversees location than a 20 oz. piece of plastic crap. Logistics and costs vary a great deal between automobiles and consumables.

All that aside, the basic premise is if you serve the market you are located in, everyone's standard of living increases over time. The Chinese worker may not need higher wages since his artificially low wages are made up for by the lower costs of products he has access to. Instead, we as a society pray on those in a weak position to elevate ourselves. Plenty of people will cry about the poor Vietnamese kid made to work in horrendous conditions for long hours to produce shoes, but they still go buy the Nike shoes don't they?

Who says lower Gini index is better? would you rather live in a communist country with low index meaning everyone is same dirty poor, or a country like US where if you go to school and work hard, you get rewarded better then others?

Why do you want to serve the market you are located only? Every place/country has comparative advantage, and you only benefit and make the most of those advantage by trading with partners. China and India has labor force as their comparative advantage, what is our? People like Bill Gate, Warrant Buffet, made the best of advantages available here, information, brain power and they did very well for themselves. People in investment banking, high tech industries also recognized our comparative advantage and makes tons of money from China, India. Look at Apple, Intel, why would they only do business in the US when their product is highly demanded else where too, look at all the pharmaceutical companies.

Sorry to break the news to you, but this world changes all the time. Even in China and India, if you don't update your skills and knowledge, you get leave behind by the economy. Same in the US. We have moved from labor intensive industries in the early years to high tech, information rich economy with highly skilled and educated work force. There will be people left behind because they don't have the right skills and experience as old jobs are replaced by new jobs with new requirements. It is just dumb to hold on to the past and insist the economy don't change so people won't loss job.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

I never said we shouldn't trade with other countries, I said we shouldn't trade in a manner that is detrimental to our own economy. You may think it's just fine to "leave behind" those people who don't have the ability to advance their skills/education but I do not. I've worked damn hard to get where I am but I've only gotten here because I was blessed with a natural ability to figure things out. The majority of the population doesn't have that ability. Now, you can provide trades for those people or you can have a large population of unemployed people living off the state. We all know the preference of the corporations, but do you want social programs to continue to expand because all the jobs the population are qualified for are in China? Most populations on the planet are made up of people no matter what there environment or means, they will never possess the knowledge/skill to be a CEO of a company. But to hear the arguments in here, most seem to think "to hell with the hard worker if he's not as smart as I am." When your "high tech" job heads off to some other corner of the world, just remember it's your fault you're unemployed. All that "education" doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the only jobs in your geographic location are waiting tables or flipping burgers.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTO, free trade agreements, UN, all that stinking crap has destroyed our economy. We wouldn't need cheaper products from China if we still had the type of work force we did 50 years ago. We should have taxed any corporation outsourcing the US economy to the point there was no cost savings doing so. If you want to do business in China, no problem. Sell to the Chinese workers manufacturing the product. What, they can't afford to buy them? I guess maybe you'll have to pay them more. Our manufacturing base is nearly dead and it's the politicians who signed us on to this garbage at the bequest of their corporate sponsors who are to blame. We could have created jobs in manufacturing in the Asian market to service the Asian market bringing up standards of living globally. Instead, we allowed our corporations to exploit the poor and destitute citizens of what was and really still is a third world nation to fatten their bottom line all the while selling the idea of "cheaper" goods to the idiotic American Public.

Destroyed our economy? Our economy is still the biggest in the world (outside of EU which is not a country), with low unemployment rate and top 10 GDP per capita. We got this good economy from opening our door and trading with other countries. And if you look at the rest of the world, there is no one successful economy achieved that through closing their door on trade.

WTO is a place for discussion, that's all. It is not an organization to force stuff onto people. Like every other diplomatic issues, countries talk, give some and take some and strike deals best suited for each country. Without a place like WTO to talk and discuss, international trade issue cannot be resolved and that slows trade between countries.

I am constantly amazed at people living in this one of the most successful economy complain about craps all day and try to reverse what worked for this countries. How many failed socialist and communist economy does it take for people to realize closing their door and too much protectionist policy will only destroy wealth.

Sure, our economy is the biggest in the world, but if ya haven't noticed, it's on the decline. We've replaced our manufacturing base with a service industry that pays less. Sure, our major corps. will thrive just fine. They'll find customers that can buy their crap somewhere, but pretty soon it won't be us. I don't understand how you and so many like you can say keeping our manufacturing base here is being protectionist. Or, maybe I can see why you say it, I just can't see how that's a bad thing. A majority of what's produced is consumed by those producing it and we've whittled down how much we produce here and are continually making that base smaller. What is wrong with producing something for $.85 in China and selling it to the Chinese for $1 and on the other hand manufacturing the same product in the states for $2.85 and selling it to an American for $3? I'll answer that for you. If you do that, then all the wealth can't be transferred to a few at the top, it stays mixed up. It baffles me how people cannot see this. Do yourself a favor the next time you're painting this rosy picture of our economy, go look up the Ginni coefficient for our country and then compare it to the rest of the world. The disparity in wealth possession in the states is right on par with most third world nations. There's also been a drastic increase in that disparity since we started shipping our factories out of the country. Are you getting the picture yet? Our economy is being made to serve the very few who possess the most of it. The remaining portion is being pried from our fingers while all the people sing "We've got the biggest economy in the world." You just don't realize you're not really a part of that economy any more.

The reason I can't see this is because your reasoning is so wrong. You're advocating a closed isolated protectionist market and history has shown that this doesn't work. Compare North Korea with South Korea. How is the wealth in North Korea distributed?

A closed isolated protectionist market only leads to inefficiencies. Imagine this at the state level. Let's say West Virginia can produce a computer for $399 (because their cost of living is so low it allows companies to pay workers a lower wage) but Maryland (which has a higher cost of living) can only produce this computer for $799. But in West Virginia, $399 is a lot of money so most people can't afford to buy this computer. So, the West Virginia factory shuts down (since they are not allowed to sell it in Maryland and because there is no market for computers in West Virginia). Meanwhile, consumers in Maryland are paying $799 for a computer that could be gotten for only $399 if they were only allowed to buy products from West Virginia.

Meanwhile, West Virginia remains a poor state. Marylanders overpay for their products and the $799 price prevents many Marylanders from owning a computer.

What happens if we have open trade between Maryland and West Virginia? Well, the West Virginia factory churns out lots of computers for $399. Many people in Maryland now can afford a personal computer. Unfortunately, the Maryland computer factory has to lay off some people for awhile and try to get more efficient. West Virginia's factories are doing great providing West Virginians with great jobs! West Virginia living standards increase! Workers begin to want higher wages because of the increasing living standards. Eventually, wages rise enough so the Maryland factory becomes competitive again and computer factory jobs return to Maryland.

The end result is that West Virginia benefits and Maryland benefits with open trade. Without open trade, West Virginia remains poor and only the very rich in Maryland can afford to own computers.

Remember in the past when we were enraged about Japanese cars selling in the US? I remember people holding news conferences using baseball bats to smash Japanese cars and urging Americans to "Buy American". They said the same things about Japan as they are now saying bout China.

Since then Japanese car companies have opened factories in the US (Nissan has factories in Tennessee) -- supplying us with good jobs. None of those warnings about Japan came true.

You may want to rethink your North Korea reference. Their Ginni index is lower than ours by a significant margin. Ours is between 41 and 48 while theirs is 31. Lower is better in case you failed to look up what the Ginni coefficient is and how it works. Oh, South Korea is between 32 and 38 in case you were wondering.

Your logic between West Virginia and Maryland has merit, but imagine for a second that if the employees who wanted higher wages in West Virginia were executed because they wanted those higher wages and spoke up about it. How many more people would ask for higher wages after that. Your analogy depends on the premise that the workers live in a free society which the Chinese do not. Our corporations have moved manufacturing to China because there is a plethora of basically slave labor to choose from. This is where import taxes should be levied as there is no way American companies can compete with that. Also, the Japanese car companies IIRC opened factories in the US as a means to circumvent import taxes. Also, it costs a lot more to transport an automobile from an oversees location than a 20 oz. piece of plastic crap. Logistics and costs vary a great deal between automobiles and consumables.

All that aside, the basic premise is if you serve the market you are located in, everyone's standard of living increases over time. The Chinese worker may not need higher wages since his artificially low wages are made up for by the lower costs of products he has access to. Instead, we as a society pray on those in a weak position to elevate ourselves. Plenty of people will cry about the poor Vietnamese kid made to work in horrendous conditions for long hours to produce shoes, but they still go buy the Nike shoes don't they?

The Gini Index is pretty much worthless if people will use it to interpret that the people in North Korea are better off than the people in the US. The poor in our country would be considered rich in many third world countries. North Korea can't even feed itself -- millions have died during their recent famines. Most of the people there are dirt poor -- the ones with the wealth are the "benevolent leader", party members and members of their armed forces.

So, basically the Gini Index is saying that it's better for everyone to be dirt poor than to have a country with some wealth disparity but where the poorest would be considered rich in the country with the lower Gini Index.

Your description of the labor situation in China is inaccurate. I recently heard news reports from NPR that there are pressures to increase wages in China. There are now more opportunities for Chinese workers. They now have more choice as to where to work. Previously, most poor farmers would travel to the city to get factory jobs. But as the living standards improve there are now different types of jobs becoming available. As a result, many factories are facing pressure to raise wages because they are finding it difficult to fill positions.

BTW, I heard that China is now facing similar "low cost" competition from countries such as Vietnam. Many corporations are moving their factories from China to other countries with even lower costs.

The above supports my premise that free trade improves the living standards of poor countries and that wages in those countries do increase. Eventually, our factories will become competitive again and jobs will flow back into our country.

Ideally at this point, China will not be a third world country anymore and will become a huge potential market for our products. Ideally, in the future, Chinese people will have a positive image of America (Hey, Americans are great! They're our "big brother". They helped us out of our third world status and the people there are so warm and friendly! Let's buy this "Made in America" product. It has to be good -- it's from them!). It's a win-win situation. But unfortunately, with so many negative and hateful things being said about China in the US -- maybe they won't have such a positive image of us in the future.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
I never said we shouldn't trade with other countries, I said we shouldn't trade in a manner that is detrimental to our own economy. You may think it's just fine to "leave behind" those people who don't have the ability to advance their skills/education but I do not. I've worked damn hard to get where I am but I've only gotten here because I was blessed with a natural ability to figure things out. The majority of the population doesn't have that ability. Now, you can provide trades for those people or you can have a large population of unemployed people living off the state. We all know the preference of the corporations, but do you want social programs to continue to expand because all the jobs the population are qualified for are in China? Most populations on the planet are made up of people no matter what there environment or means, they will never possess the knowledge/skill to be a CEO of a company. But to hear the arguments in here, most seem to think "to hell with the hard worker if he's not as smart as I am." When your "high tech" job heads off to some other corner of the world, just remember it's your fault you're unemployed. All that "education" doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the only jobs in your geographic location are waiting tables or flipping burgers.

Free trade isn't detrimental to our economy, our economy has expanded because of more free trades. The problem you described and many people complained about isn't a shrinking economy, it is a shift in required skills and experience in this changing economy brought by the free trade. As countries focus more on the things it does better, people who used to be in industries that are not competitive will lose job.

The economy as a whole more then make up for the lost jobs with new jobs and industries we do better and more efficiently.

But I agree with you that people who lost job is an issue, but use protectionist policy to keep uncompetitive companies and industry isn't the answer. The government needs to use the gain from free trade to plan and help people/labor to move to competitive business. There are lots of talks of retraining people but I haven't seen anything concrete. This is the part that US government needs to do a better job of, not bunch of protectionist policy to stop/slow trade between partners.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

A "partner" who makes policy decisions which artificially maintain their currency value low to maintain a trade deficit is not a partner. If China was a partner, there would be a two way street. Instead, we're allowing them to slowly suck our economy dry. This is not about allowing companies to be more competitive, it's about moving our industry to China. China isn't keeping their currency deflated intentionally to keep businesses out. Many of the arguments made in favor of outsourcing are valid arguments when dealing with a true trading partner. This is not the case with China however. It's simple economic warfare and big business in this country has sold us out. Treason of the highest order as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
A "partner" who makes policy decisions which artificially maintain their currency value low to maintain a trade deficit is not a partner. If China was a partner, there would be a two way street. Instead, we're allowing them to slowly suck our economy dry. This is not about allowing companies to be more competitive, it's about moving our industry to China. China isn't keeping their currency deflated intentionally to keep businesses out. Many of the arguments made in favor of outsourcing are valid arguments when dealing with a true trading partner. This is not the case with China however. It's simple economic warfare and big business in this country has sold us out. Treason of the highest order as far as I'm concerned.

:thumbsup:

I'm definitely in favor of sanctions against any company that closes US plants and moves its operations to China.
No more taxable deductions, HEAVY import tariffs and taxes, loss of their American Corporate status.
Hit them where it hurts...in the bottom line.
IMO, you can't be an American company/corporation, when your manufacturing is done in China.
Am I protectionist? Yes I am, and I think American workers are worth that.
(especially when China is so protective of their exports and restrictive on anything imported to their country)