WWII - 63 Years Ago

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Societys like that breed on chaos same with dictatorships. Bombing them and invading adds fuel to the fire.
The people there damn well know just as well as the Iraqis why we are there, they are not as willing to be fooled
as some here in the states.

Based on that logic, we should have left the germans to their "special work" in the 1940's right?

Based on that logic, we should have left Iraq alone after they invaded Kuwait, right?

Based on that logic, war is never an answer and soon we will be conquered by a bunch who attack us with nothing more than a board with a nail sticking out of it.

 

[Steeplerot]

We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

Who won WW2? I'd have to say the Brits or French for doggedly fighting on in the face of fascism in a time when you could count every democratic country on one hand. The soviets would be the heros but what they beat hitler to bring to europe was even worse. And we sat by leaving Brits and France asses out to dry....
Yes the army fought bravely in the Pacific but if you get down to what that was all about it's american greed once again that forced the japs to bomb PH.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

Oh, so to save the people in aushwitz, you have to kill them....I get it.

What economic interests? We were in the middle of a depression.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

We had no economic interest at the time in Europe. We were in an isolationist state just trying to come out of the depression (New Deal).

We initially support Britian and Russia from being overrun by Germany via massive infusions of aid.
And a great loss of life along the North Atlantic routes.

When Russia had stabilized/stalled the German advances, then both sides geared up for the march to Berlin. Politically, Berlin was left to Russia, mainly due to the fact that they absorbed the worst of the conflict compared to the US & Western European allies.

Aushwitz may have ben off limits due to the fact the prisoners were being held there. Many POW locations were not targeted, especially after Dresden.

Much of the Soviet atrocities (w/ respect to handling of their jews came after WWII not during.

It is not wise to read revisionist history, can cloud the facts.

 

[Alistar7]

Should we have bombed and invaded? lol.....

 

[Steeplerot]

I would be very sad if I was up in that B-17 that dropped tons and tons of bombs on the stoves and mall sized gas chambers. But kowing those trains would stop moving people in like cattle to fully operational killing machines these things would have to be done. By the end of the war they were killing 10s of thousands a day. You can't do that if you don't have a serious facility to dispose and systematicly kill those numbers. auschwitz's huge black steaming smokestacks and the cookers underneath them should have been one of the first targets IMO, but they were passed up again and again for years.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

Who won WW2? I'd have to say the Brits or French for doggedly fighting on in the face of fascism in a time when you could count every democratic country on one hand. The soviets would be the heros but what they beat hitler to bring to europe was even worse. And we sat by leaving Brits and France asses out to dry....
Yes the army fought bravely in the Pacific but if you get down to what that was all about it's american greed once again that forced the japs to bomb PH.

Do you actually believe the drivel you post?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

We had no economic interest at the time in Europe. We were in an isolationist state just trying to come out of the depression (New Deal).

We initially support Britian and Russia from being overrun by Germany via massive infusions of aid.
And a great loss of life along the North Atlantic routes.

When Russia had stabilized/stalled the German advances, then both sides geared up for the march to Berlin. Politically, Berlin was left to Russia, mainly due to the fact that they absorbed the worst of the conflict compared to the US & Western European allies.

Aushwitz may have ben off limits due to the fact the prisoners were being held there. Many POW locations were not targeted, especially after Dresden.

Much of the Soviet atrocities (w/ respect to handling of their jews came after WWII not during.

It is not wise to read revisionist history, can cloud the facts.

ahhhhhh, but what your missing is we did NOT provide all this aid for free to the brits, ever hear of lend-lease?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I would be very sad if I was up in that B-17 that dropped tons and tons of bombs on the stoves and mall sized gas chambers. But kowing those trains would stop moving people in like cattle to fully operational killing machines these things would have to be done. By the end of the war they were killing 10s of thousands a day. You can't do that if you don't have a serious facility to dispose and systematicly kill those numbers. auschwitz's huge black steaming smokestacks and the cookers underneath them should have been one of the first targets IMO, but they were passed up again and again for years.

And how many years were we flying over Germany?

The point of the bombings was to cripple the military and industrial complex of Germany. That was costing us enough planes and pilots as it was. Some tracks were bombed, however, it was in conjuction with the primary targets.

Also, the US may not have been aware of the scale of what was going on. 20-20 hindsight.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

We had no economic interest at the time in Europe. We were in an isolationist state just trying to come out of the depression (New Deal).

We initially support Britian and Russia from being overrun by Germany via massive infusions of aid.
And a great loss of life along the North Atlantic routes.

When Russia had stabilized/stalled the German advances, then both sides geared up for the march to Berlin. Politically, Berlin was left to Russia, mainly due to the fact that they absorbed the worst of the conflict compared to the US & Western European allies.

Aushwitz may have ben off limits due to the fact the prisoners were being held there. Many POW locations were not targeted, especially after Dresden.

Much of the Soviet atrocities (w/ respect to handling of their jews came after WWII not during.

It is not wise to read revisionist history, can cloud the facts.

ahhhhhh, but what your missing is we did NOT provide all this aid for free to the brits, ever hear of lend-lease?

Which was a political and publicity ploy to get Congress and the American people to send aid beoynd the already established "cash and carry" rule. We forgave a crapload of foreign debt created under this program after the war.

 

[Steeplerot]

The soviets LEFT them in the camps! Until after the war. Then they had "relocations". The end of the war was just the start of a even worse tradgedy for millions of familys.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052


Which was a political and publicity ploy to get Congress and the American people to send aid beoynd the already established "cash and carry" rule. We forgave a crapload of foreign debt created under this program after the war.

Of course we did, we bombed the european cities to the ground, firestorms, other nastiness. What choice would we have? who would buy our junk after the war if their countries stayed leveled by american bombs, how long would it take before the riots etc broke out and the soviets swooped into france and the rest of germany to "protect the peace" if we didn't shore up what we had bombed into the stone age?
Theres more to the story then america big hearted generous saving the europeans.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
We did leave the germans to their "special work" you ever hear of a bomb hitting auschwitz?
You ever hear about the American companies that profited off of selling the germans technology?
We came in in traditional american fashion -last minute just to save our economic interests from being overrun by the commies.
What a proud war, well if you read our textbooks it is, if you were a jew that couldn't get asylum to hide from hitler back then or any help in stopping the soviets from continuing what the germans were already doing you'd think otherwise though.

We had no economic interest at the time in Europe. We were in an isolationist state just trying to come out of the depression (New Deal).

We initially support Britian and Russia from being overrun by Germany via massive infusions of aid.
And a great loss of life along the North Atlantic routes.

When Russia had stabilized/stalled the German advances, then both sides geared up for the march to Berlin. Politically, Berlin was left to Russia, mainly due to the fact that they absorbed the worst of the conflict compared to the US & Western European allies.

Aushwitz may have ben off limits due to the fact the prisoners were being held there. Many POW locations were not targeted, especially after Dresden.

Much of the Soviet atrocities (w/ respect to handling of their jews came after WWII not during.

It is not wise to read revisionist history, can cloud the facts.

ahhhhhh, but what your missing is we did NOT provide all this aid for free to the brits, ever hear of lend-lease?

Lend-Lease was an accounting practice. Just like printing up money, nothing stood behind it other than the faith of the government.

The Marshall plan was also equivalent to lend-lease. The recipients were not expected to be able to repay. IT was a way to help Europe get back on their feet.

Few countries have actually repaid the US for what was expended in WWII

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052


Which was a political and publicity ploy to get Congress and the American people to send aid beoynd the already established "cash and carry" rule. We forgave a crapload of foreign debt created under this program after the war.

Of course we did, we bombed the european cities to the ground, firestorms, other nastiness. What choice would we have? who would buy our junk after the war if their countries stayed leveled by american bombs, how long would it take before the riots etc broke out and the soviets swooped into france and the rest of germany to "protect the peace" if we didn't shore up what we had bombed into the stone age?
Theres more to the story then america big hearted generous saving the europeans.

It was in our interest in more ways than one. (Not to mention the occupied nations)

Option B was a Europe/Africa/Middle East controlled by Nazi Germany and a Pacific/Asia controlled by Imperial Japan.

What's your pleasure?

 

[Steeplerot]

And how long would a united europe make it under the very badly run nazis? Please, all empires fall. Hitler did not start killing jews until he was scared to death of the soviets knocking on the doors of germany itself. Actually hitler even TOLD the US to get these jews out of the new reich and if someone doesen't take em he washes his hands of what happens to them.
Guess what the response was from all the countries in the world? NO, (except cuba who said they wanted in effect "More whites" ) Where are the saviors of the repressed jewish population? Yeah, I remember the republicans were the isolationists while quite a few of them were making good money from trade with germany and wanted no immigrants, especially inferior jews. Same old conservative hypocracy diffrent age and lots of misinformation in other words the same old sh1t. Diffrent bush making $$$$ off of less wealthy and connected people far away.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And how long would a united europe make it under the very badly run nazis? Please, all empires fall. Hitler did not start killing jews until he was scared to death of the soviets knocking on the doors of germany itself. Actually hitler even TOLD the US to get these jews out of the new reich and if someone doesen't take em he washes his hands of what happens to them.
Guess what the response was from all the countries in the world? NO, (except cuba who said they wanted in effect "More whites" ) Where are the saviors of the repressed jewish population? Yeah, I remember the republicans were the isolationists while quite a few of them were making good money from trade with germany and wanted no immigrants, especially inferior jews. Same old conservative hypocracy diffrent age and lots of misinformation in other words the same old sh1t. Diffrent bush making $$$$ off of less wealthy and connected people far away.

Badly run? Tell that to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Belgium, Russia and Great Britain.

Wrong, the Nazis started in 1941 and accelerated the program in early 1942, when the chances of a Soviet victory were not good.

 

[Steeplerot]

Large scale here is where I am coming from the sheer numbers of gassings started up later, yes hitler had concentration camps early on in the 30's even but executions were MAINLY carried out by firing squad. The actual massive gas chambers you hearabout were a few years later. (when we were doing HUGE full daylight bombing runs over germany daily almost) horrible experiments earlier on in 41 or so like those trucks full of gas in the back, this is awful stuff can we change the subject please, thanks.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Genx87

guess you were watching different news than I was. There are always naysayers; but the consensus for action in Afghanistan was pretty solid, compared to Iraq.

No it wasnt really. Iraq became an election year issue and the liberals needed to look tough. What better way than to say Afghanistan was ok but Iraq wasnt? It shows they are tough when they want to be but puts questions in peoples mind about the current administration.

Truth is if it wasnt an election year those same libs would be whining about Afghanistan and how it was only for an oil pipeline from Russia. A political favor.

It was all over this forum and other forums until John Kerry was the front runner and the democrats started planting the seeds of doubt.

There didn't seem to me much doubt that the Taliban and Al Qaeda had strong ties, and that Afghanistan therefore presented a clear and present danger to the world through terrorist ties. This coming from a flaming liberal Canadian, I'm afraid your recollection of 2001-2002 isn't too good.

You must have missed all the neolibs then or tuned them out. If people think Iraq was a non-threatening regime. Then what could the Taliban possibly have done to the United States? We are talking about a regime who used horses and sent people on foot to vast regions of the country to defend it. About the only thing they could have done is shipped some bad opium and hope it killed some of the limosuine liberals who happily defend people like them.

I'm not American

IIRC, 2003 was not an election year, and the protests over Iraq dwarfed any dissent over Afghanistan.

Oh yeah, and neo-liberals aren't Liberals, for the 10,000th time

Afghanistan was capable of, and guilty of, providing a haven for terrorist leaders, making it much easier for them to coordinate plans. Thus the argument of 'imminent threat' worked well when applied to Afghanistan.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052

Badly run? Tell that to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Belgium, Russia and Great Britain.
.

Very badly run, the initial military victories were won by huge minds of military stratagy Guderian (and his ground shattering new armored mobile warfare doctrines really turned the tide for the wehrmact), Rommell was a genius also and these legendary minds formulated a blitzkreig tactic to do what no army that size should have been able to do. hitler's actual decisions in war when he overrode his field marshals almost always led to a major screwup (dunkirk being a early major screw up that hitler overrode his generals to make early on and lets not get into stalingrad. -see quote below) It was luck that he had such gifted minds and rather sad that those minds went to war for such a wrong cause.(But they learned what hitler was up to fast and plotted to stop him from the onset almost.) They even made attempts to get help from UK or US to get rid of mustache-boi!
Think they got any help and spoil the republicans little war profiteering game? HELL NO.
Rommell most likley the worlds greatest military minds, after trying to assasinate hitler is forced to commit suicide, and then the german people lied to about the fate of their hero.
Guderian was found to be innocent becasue of his assosiations with the german resistance and always trying to stop hitler in the war rooms (which he was fired time and time again becasue hitler disagreed with him about his treatment of jews and the hopeless course of the war and Germans self-respect for what he was doing. He was a free man after nuremburg trials.
There WAS an alternative! hitler was screwing up, BAD the military hated him lots of people hated him but the buildup of war gave hitler the means he needed to clamp down on dissenters. The bombings too. That scares the sh1t out of someone. Bombing a historiclly city draws the citizens together to help each other, and they needed a leader to feel safe, and thus hitler became god. with the help of Joseph Goebbels and fox news err I mean radio) of course.

Just one view of a alternative to the handling of ww2 hitler was NOT as talented as people think the actual brains he chased off or pissed off early on. (Or just killed them)



Some cool Guderian Quotes for Tanker or History Buffs:

"Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern". (You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread) - Meaning that you should concentrate your Panzers for one mighty push in one direction and not distribute them.

"Es gibt keine verzweifelten Lagen, es gibt nur verzweifelte Menschen". (There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people).

"Der Motor des Panzers ist ebenso seine Waffe wie die Kanone". (The engine of the Panzer is a weapon just as the main-gun).

"Der Kampf gegen die eigenen Oberen macht manchmal mehr Arbeit als gegen die Franzosen". (It is sometimes tougher to fight my superiors than the French) - When he got orders to stop and wait for the following infantry and tried to persuade his superiors that this would mean to throw away victory.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052

Badly run? Tell that to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Belgium, Russia and Great Britain.
.

Very badly run, the initial military victories were won by huge minds of military stratagy Guerdian (and his ground shattering new armored mobile warfare doctrines really turned the tide for the wehrmact), Rommell was a genius also and these legendary minds formulated a blitzkreig tactic to do what no army that size should have bee nable to do. Hitler's actual decisions in war when he overrode his field marshals almost always led to a major screwup (dunkirk being a early major screw up that hitler overrode his generals to make early on and lets not get into stalingrad.) It was luck that he had such gifted minds rather sad that those minds went to war for such a wrong cause. But those 2 men also tried to stop hitler and eve nmade attempts to get help from UK or US. Think they got any help and spoil the republicans little war profiteering game? HELL NO.
Rommell most likley the worlds greatest military minds after being trying to assasinate hitler is forced to commit suicide, and then the german people lied to about the fate of their hero.
Guerdian was found to be innocent becasue of his assosiations with the german resistance and always trying to stop hitler in the war rooms (which he was fired time and time again becasue hitler disagreed with him about his treatment of jews an the course of the war. He was a free man after nuremburg trials.
There WAS an alternative hitler was screwing up, BAD the military hated him lots of people hated him but the buildup of war gave hitler the means he needed to clamp down on dissenters. The bombings too. That scares the sh1t out of someone. Bombing acity draws the citizens together to help each other, and they needed a leader to feel safe, and thus hitler became god. with the help of Joseph Goebbels and fox news err I mean radio) of course.

Just one view of a alternative to the handling of ww2 hitler was NOT as talented as people think the actual brains he chased off or pissed off.

Sigh. I never claimed Hitler was talented at anything other than politics.

He had very competent subordinates, a armed forces that was unmatched at the time, and the industrial base to back it up.

Germany managed to come very close to cutting the supply lines to GB and crushing Soviet Russia.

 

[Steeplerot]

I am not so sure he could have done squat to UK he BADLY lost the BoB (like half the planes of germany lost or something it would take 7 years or something to build that many more to replace them.)
And Russia yeah he coulda taken moscow a bit earlier but I can't see that happening the way he treated the russian people already sick of stalin, you give russia time, the people, the winters and the rebulding of industries in siberia (which was underway while germans were invading.) and the giant lumbering bear of russia would have laid the germans down.. and they did too.
Germans were VERY overextended farther you go into russia the worse it gets for you, and only gets worse over time.
Russia > Germany given a bit of time to mobilize and the russians have always had time on their side IMO

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I am not so sure he could have done squat to UK he BADLY lost the BoB (like half the planes of germany lost or something it would take 7 years or something to build that many more to replace them.)
And Russia yeah he coulda taken moscow a bit earlier but I can't see that happening the way he treated the russian people already sick of stalin, you give russia time, the people, the winters and the rebulding of industries in siberia (which was underway while germans were invading.) and the giant lumbering bear of russia would have laid the germans down.. and they did too.
Germans were VERY overextended farther you go into russia the worse it gets for you, and only gets worse over time.
Russia > Germany given a bit of time to mobilize and the russians have always had time on their side IMO

Have to agree with that, there was no chance of the Germans adequately occupying and controlling all of Russia for any extended period.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I am not so sure he could have done squat to UK he BADLY lost the BoB (like half the planes of germany lost or something it would take 7 years or something to build that many more to replace them.)
And Russia yeah he coulda taken moscow a bit earlier but I can't see that happening the way he treated the russian people already sick of stalin, you give russia time, the people, the winters and the rebulding of industries in siberia (which was underway while germans were invading.) and the giant lumbering bear of russia would have laid the germans down.. and they did too.
Germans were VERY overextended farther you go into russia the worse it gets for you, and only gets worse over time.
Russia > Germany given a bit of time to mobilize and the russians have always had time on their side IMO

They got really close to cutting the shipping lanes with U-boats. If that happened the UK would have to capitulate.

The Russians managed to do all that with lots of American supplies.

 

[Steeplerot]

Gotta be careful with that one though supply lines for the russians were cut badly and corruption by soviet officials was so bad I hear almost all the stuff was sold off that came in the ports of Leningrad. (Not to mention the atrocious losses of the transports up there in the sea full of ice and german uboats. the amount that russia got was almost negligble from us.
I don't kow if those ships were helping though. It wasent even feeding the lesser of 2 evils.... WWII is a great tragedy to humanity all around the world I hope there is not another one ever.
The only thing actually accomplished in WW2 is a lot of destruction of cities and infrastructure and millions of lives of grandparents and great granparents never to be.
I am torn by the paradox of WWII in some respects it seems noble but when reality rears its ugly head it was a war of greed and intolerance like any other war with everyone trying to screw the weaker guy over (allies did some nasty stuff to each other to say the least) and this makes me sad for the nature of humanity it was not a freak accident war but more of the same old same old. I hope we do not see this event again but sadly times don't seem to change much.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Japan?s surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and other military bases on Oahu lasted two hours. Twenty-one ships were heavily damaged, and 320 aircraft were damaged or destroyed. In all, about 2,390 people were killed and about 1,178 were wounded, according to the National Park Service, which maintains the Arizona site.


/title corrected

It is amazing that we now have Japan as an ally and sit at the same table of peace.

CsG