X1800 XT or 7900 GT

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Crashedout
What if you have conductive paint from your athlon xp days, and you have a multimeter for the PS1/PS2 modding you did and a universal cooler from your last video card...but I do agree with you if you have to buy all of it get the 1900.

And he forgot that most will have to change the stock HSF's on both the X1800 and the X1900's. But try finding one that will cool something that hot and still keep quiet. The VF700 could not cut it, and people have had "meh" results with the VF900.
For the 7900GT, if your gonna spend 30 bucks on a cooler, you might as well get one that covers the memory as well.

And being as price conscious as he is, you would think he would be a bit of a more careful shopper.

Multimeter: 12.98 + ship Or you can just borrow one. Unless you live in the outskirts of Alaska and only know polar bears. Somebody you know, has a multimeter.

eVGA e-GeForce 7900GT CO 315.00 shipped

Conductive pen. Walk into a radio shack and see what they go for. 13 bucks sounds about right.

This is just doing a quick search or two. If anyone puts a little more effort to search for better deals, they will find better ones than I did.

Joker, are you water or air cooling?

 

[golem]

Just get whichever one is cheaper. The GT will however play worse in upcoming shader games as proven by oblivion.

Don't the Nvidia cards generally do as well or better indoors while the ATI cards do much better outdoors? I think Firingsquad mentioned that ATI cards are better with rendering foilage or something like that. IF THIS IS TRUE, saying ATI card will be better on upcoming shader games because it renders foilage better is a stretch. Course, this recollection of Nvidia doing well indoors and ATI doing foiliage well is sort of hazy so I may be wrong

 

[CCityInstaller]

Originally posted by: ST

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

and what clocks are you talking about? most ppl who volt mod the GT are only attaining core speeds in the 600's...

wow, just wow... everytime i read one of your posts, it less and less credible...so volt moded GT's are in the "600s", does this mean it ranges from 601-699 then? I guess my 685 core is just "adequate" then, although it is higher than a 7900gtx stock clock. wait, does this mean then that a x1800xt will also outperform a 7900gtx now? next thing you'll know, even a 850xt will outperform any G70/G71 based cores.../rolleyes

I agree with Cainam on this one. I think you need to go back and read the post before you take it personally. I am by no means a fanboy, but the X1800XT was the best card for the money IMHO. As far as overclocking goes, I am running 689/790 on my XT with the Accelero X2, and it's 100% silent at full load. Before you counter with the fact that I'm using aftermarket cooling, I was able to hit the same speeds with the stock cooler. I just wanted a 100% silent solution to go with my low noise setup in the rest of the system.

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Seems to me you do it all too often. Fact is to get the 7900 GT up to par with a higher end part (assuming they don't kill it in the process) one has to do the following...

Woot...5150Joker is now knowledgable in the arena of 7900GT mods! Armeggedon has come!

Sit down before you hurt yourself...i guess we know what you and ATI have been discussing lately now haven't we? lol

Let's review this shall we:

1. You can purchase a eVGA 7900GT from Circuit City for $269.99 (or less if you have their 10% off coupon).

2. You pick up a simple Conductive Pen from Radio Shack for $12.99

3. You draw a simple line from point A to point B.. Since this is simply flipping a digital binary register in the VRM calculations, it is a pass or no go affair, i.e. you will either get 1.4V OR stock 1.2V. IT DOES NOT change to any other voltages. You can measure it with a $3 volt meter if it is your pleasure, but if you can OC to 600MHz (usually the absolute minimum OC), you're gold!

4. Optional: You can purchase a NV Silencer 5 for $14.95 and use it with a slight modification if you plan on really pushing the overclocking near 700Mhz.

So let's add that up: $269.99 7900GT + $12.99 Conductive Pen = $282.99 bare minimum . Add $3 Multimeter and $14.95 NV Silencer if you want to play it safer, and you're at $300.98 TOTAL. This will net you X1900XT performance XT for $118-$136 less. It is also foolish to say it will void you warranty, since you overclocked and overvolted your X1900XT GPU (not to mentioned removed the HSF for WC), technically your warranty is also considered voided. The REAL benefit of soft mods, is that it is easily reversible, but so is the 7900GT volt mods with simple rubbing alchohol!

edit: forgot to mention i found this really amusing, with mr. fanATIc himself finally admitting that "an X1900XT that will give you the same performance as a volt modded 7900 GT ". Gotta sig that now

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Crashedout
What if you have conductive paint from your athlon xp days, and you have a multimeter for the PS1/PS2 modding you did and a universal cooler from your last video card...but I do agree with you if you have to buy all of it get the 1900.

And he forgot that most will have to change the stock HSF's on both the X1800 and the X1900's. But try finding one that will cool something that hot and still keep quiet. The VF700 could not cut it, and people have had "meh" results with the VF900.
For the 7900GT, if your gonna spend 30 bucks on a cooler, you might as well get one that covers the memory as well.

No I didn't forget because the stock coolers do not need to be changed on the X1800 or X1900. They do their job fine just as they are and they vent hot air outside the case.

And being as price conscious as he is, you would think he would be a bit of a more careful shopper.

Multimeter: 12.98 + ship Or you can just borrow one. Unless you live in the outskirts of Alaska and only know polar bears. Somebody you know, has a multimeter.

eVGA e-GeForce 7900GT CO 315.00 shipped

Conductive pen. Walk into a radio shack and see what they go for. 13 bucks sounds about right.

This is just doing a quick search or two. If anyone puts a little more effort to search for better deals, they will find better ones than I did.

Joker, are you water or air cooling?

[/quote]


Even if you subtract the shipping charges, you end up paying drastically more than you would for an X1800XT and the price becomes within range of the X1900XT. So the 7900 GT's volt modded value plummets as a result. I don't see what cooling I use has any relevance to this discussion.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Crashedout
My point was based on the hype MS piled on Oblivion leading up to and after the 360 launch. This IMPLIED that Bethesda was focusing their coding efforts on that platform. From this I deduced that if you were coding for platform with an ATI GPU you would get to know that type of coding better than a competing model. That could explain why they called in NV, they already knew the tricks with ATI and needed help. On Bethesda knows for sure and since they have vested interest in both sides I doubt they will say anything.

To further confound the argument, MS makes the 360 coding tools and they have impied that if you code for the 360 you can easily make a pc port. Since the coding tools would be focused on the 360's GPU, those tools could give an advantage to ATI. GRAW for the pc may support this assumption as well.

None-the-less...basing future predictions on one bit of information is premature. NV may have the inferior design or it may not...we will not know untill more games come out. Plus with all the tweaks out there, unless you have tried both I don't even know if you can say for sure one way or the other.

Sorry to start a flame war. I think you will be happy with either. If you can wait I suspect the ATI prices will drop even more.

The r500 gpu in the xbox360 is comletely different from any of Ati's current PC cards. Plus, the console is a completely different architecture, which further distances itself from any similarities with the PC. Different gpu, different cpu, different memory system - the two versions of the game probably have more in common with MS than Ati or NV.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ST

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Seems to me you do it all too often. Fact is to get the 7900 GT up to par with a higher end part (assuming they don't kill it in the process) one has to do the following...

Woot...5150Joker is now knowledgable in the arena of 7900GT mods! Armeggedon has come!

Sit down before you hurt yourself...i guess we know what you and ATI have been discussing lately now haven't we? lol

Let's review this shall we:

1. You can purchase a eVGA 7900GT from Circuit City for $269.99 (or less if you have their 10% off rebate).

Gee lets see here:

Order Summary
EVGA e-GeForce 7900 GT Graphics Card (256P2N563DX)
ECC 256P2N563DX

Price
Qty
Total

$319.99
1
$319.99
Price Before $50.00 in Rebates
Charges for this order:
Subtotal
Estimated Shipping
Estimated tax
Total

$319.99
Free!
$24.80
$344.79

So $344.79-$50 MIR = $294.79, not quite the hot deal u make it out to be.

2. You pick up a simple Conductive Pen from Radio Shack for $12.99

3. You draw a simple line from point A to point B.. Since this is simply flipping a digital binary register in the VRM calculations, it is a pass or no go affair, i.e. you will either get 1.4V OR stock 1.2V. IT DOES NOT change to any other voltages. You can measure it with a $3 volt meter if it is your pleasure, but if you can OC to 600MHz (usually the absolute minimum OC), you're gold!

Unfortunately that $3 meter turns out to be a lot more expensive than that:

1 90899-1VGA 7 FUNCTION MULTI-TESTER 2.99 2.99
Subtotal 2.99
Tax Rate 0.07250
Tax Amount 0.22
(CA) - (6.99) *Shipping 6.99
Handling 0.00
Total 10.20

4. Optional: You can purchase a NV Silencer 5 for $14.95 and use it with a slight modification if you plan on really pushing the overclocking near 700Mhz.

LOL someone is grasping at straws. Another "slight" modifcation to fit a cooler not designed for the 7900 GT on there. Anyway the real price of this "slightly modified cooler" comes out to:

$14.95 $14.95

Subtotal: $14.95
Shipping: $6.29
Tax: $1.23
Total: $22.47 using standard UPS shipping.


So yes lets add that up using your "slightly modified" cooler that's not designed to fit on the 7900 GT along with the pen and meter:

Card: $294.79 after MIR
Meter: $10.20
Conductive pen: $13
"Slightly modded cooler"(LOL): $22.47

Grand Total: $340.46 + voided warranty and a "slightly modified" voided cooler

vs.

Stock X1900XT for $424 that requires no conductive ink, multimeter or "slightly modified cooler" and gives you HQ AF, HDR+AA, and stable drivers.

vs.

Stock X1800XT for $263.89 which comes out to $80 less than the voided 7900 GT with its "slightly modified" cooler.


To any consumer with an iota of intelligence (this automatically excludes ST), the choice is very clear: X1900XT can't be beat for the price and there's no need to modify it and void the warranty or risk killing it with a messy conductive ink mod job or "slightly modified cooler".

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I don't see what cooling I use has any relevance to this discussion.

It was just a question. If you don't want to answer it, you don't want to answer it. No prob.

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

To any consumer with an iota of intelligence...

lol, "to any consumer", sounds like a sales pitch to me...

Note, if you want to factor in the nvsilencer (modified with a 1minute cut job..yes), or go with the accelero x1 for $15 more, you are going beyond the performance of x1900 for the entry fee of around $320. With Vista coming down and DX10 cards around the corner, spending $425 is not a viable option for many people. Not to mention recooperating the most of the $320 in resale value should be easy (seeing as there is such short supply and high demand on the 7900 series). Damn, i sounded like 5150Joker there..ughhh :X

BTW> Nice way of dodging the technicalalities in voiding the warranty issue....you and i both well know we have already BOTH voided our warranties, softmod or not. Again the risk on volt modding is minimal. if you can draw a straight line, it is near NIL: you either get 1.4V/1.5V or stock 1.2V.

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I don't see what cooling I use has any relevance to this discussion.

It was just a question. If you don't want to answer it, you don't want to answer it. No prob.

he's on watercooling, ironically voiding his precious warranty

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: x80064
Games I play are these....Age Of Empires 3, Rome Total War, Doom 3, Quake 4, NFS Most Wanted, COD 2, Unreal 2004. Would the GT with VF900 be good for these ? Or would the XT with an X2 be better ?

In Doom 3, Quake 4 and Unreal 04 X1800XT and 7900GT should run same speeds.
COD2, X1800XT will outperform 7900GT LINK
However, 7900GT enjoys a huge advantage of 50% in 1600x1200 in Age of Empires 3 - LINK
But I am not sure how many framerates are necessary to run a strategy game smooth, is 30 enough?
Couldn't find NFS: Most wanted benches but in NFS: Underground 2 the performance will again be very similar - Link

So I would personally go with the cheapest card you can find since for your games the difference isn't that drastic. If you were playing BF2, FEAR, COD2, and Oblivion, the argument for an ATI card would be much much stronger. I still think you need to decide if you are going to be overclocking/volt modding. Because otherwise, X1800XT 512mb + VF700 is very cheap and powerful. Don't get VF900, it's overpriced.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: ST
Note, if you want to factor in the nvsilencer (modified with a 1minute cut job..yes), or go with the accelero x1 for $15 more, you are going beyond the performance of x1900 for the entry fee of around $320.

A stock x1900xt, that is. Given that "voltmodding" a x1900xt(x) requires no additional cost or cutting or painting, things dont look so simple. That's just from a pure bang/buck perspective, not including additional features or games which just do not run as well on Nv hardware. Also, how many people are actually gonna do the voltmod? I've OC'd all my cards, which is already something most people do not do, but even I have not voltmodded any of them, even those that could be modded much easier than a 7900gt. That puts the modders into an even smaller group of people than the already niche enthusiast group who OC the cards regularly.

With Vista coming down and DX10 cards around the corner, spending $425 is not a viable option for many people.

Now that Vista and DX10 have been delayed until 2007, that actually may give the current cards an even longer lifespan than originally planned.

Not to mention recooperating the most of the $320 in resale value should be easy (seeing as there is such short supply and high demand on the 7900 series). Damn, i sounded like 5150Joker there..ughhh :X

That also sounded like Rollo, when he claimed that the gtx512 would have a high resale value for those exact same reasons. And his theory didnt work out too well.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ST

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

To any consumer with an iota of intelligence...

lol, "to any consumer", sounds like a sales pitch to me...

Note, if you want to factor in the nvsilencer (modified with a 1minute cut job..yes), or go with the accelero x1 for $15 more, you are going beyond the performance of x1900 for the entry fee of around $320.[/b]

LMAO at the "1 minute cut job". So now not only do 7900 GT customers have to spread conductive ink + use a pencil to volt mod their cards, they have to do a "1 minute cut job" on the acceleros cooler (which probably involves having to buy a dremel) just to get it to fit. Your suggestion is beyond stupid.

With Vista coming down and DX10 cards around the corner, spending $425 is not a viable option for many people. Not to mention recooperating the most of the $320 in resale value should be easy (seeing as there is such short supply and high demand on the 7900 series).

Another desperate sales pitch from you. Now we've moved from the 7900 GT being a cost effective card (disclaimer: only requires some "1 min cutting" and mods that cost enough to decrease its so-called value and void its warranty) to Vista/DX10 and resale values...your "argument" if you can call it that reeks of desperation.

BTW> Nice way of dodging the technicalalities in voiding the warranty issue....you and i both well know we have already BOTH voided our warranties, softmod or not. Again the risk on volt modding is minimal. if you can draw a straight line, it is near NIL: you either get 1.4V/1.5V or stock 1.2V.

What I did to my card has no relevance to the discussion. The facts are that with an X1900 and X1800, there is no need to replace the stock cooler since heat is pushed out of the system and memory modules are cooled as well. Nor is there a need to hard mod them if a person desires to overclock the card or raise its voltages (with an X1900 there is no need to OC for the average joe).


P.S. You obviously hold my opinion in high regard to take the time to put me in your sig. Unfortunately you're just another nobody to me.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker


What I did to my card has no relevance to the discussion. The facts are that with an X1900 and X1800, there is no need to replace the stock cooler since heat is pushed out of the system and memory modules are cooled as well.

Then for heavens sake, why did you change the cooling on yours?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: ST

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I don't see what cooling I use has any relevance to this discussion.

It was just a question. If you don't want to answer it, you don't want to answer it. No prob.

he's on watercooling, ironically voiding his precious warranty

Well depending on the card he bought the warranty was good for only a year or so anyways. :laugh:

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: 5150Joker


What I did to my card has no relevance to the discussion. The facts are that with an X1900 and X1800, there is no need to replace the stock cooler since heat is pushed out of the system and memory modules are cooled as well.

Then for heavens sake, why did you change the cooling on yours?

Because I run mine at 1.575v and bought it specifically for OC'ing. What I did with my card isn't a requirement for anyone else to do unlike the 7900 GT expensive warranty voiding mod.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: ST
The REAL benefit of soft mods, is that it is easily reversible, but so is the 7900GT volt mods with simple rubbing alchohol!

Hmm. The REAL benefit huh? Are you implying that it's easily reversible so that when it comes RMA time you can fool the manufacturer into thinking the card was never taken outside the parameters of it's warranty? That would be fraud. How can people have credability in a person who is willing to do that???

The only other reason I can see is if you're selling the card 2nd hand in which case the buyer would more than likely want the voltmods in place. I don't know many buyers who buy a heavily oced and voltmodded card only to return it to stock and run it that way hoping for a long life. When I was selling my voltmodded 7800GTs I didin't hear from one buyer (and I heard from a lot) who wanted the card returned to stock.

 

[Crashedout]

Originally posted by: munky


The r500 gpu in the xbox360 is comletely different from any of Ati's current PC cards. Plus, the console is a completely different architecture, which further distances itself from any similarities with the PC. Different gpu, different cpu, different memory system - the two versions of the game probably have more in common with MS than Ati or NV.

I have to dissagree. When you have that many transistors you don't start over each time. I don't have access to the white papers and don't code at that level but I think they are similar..ie coding ticks used on one may work on others. I realize the R500 has variable shaders and such, but it is not a logic leap to think that these shaders process in the same manner as those in the x1000 series. That is the crux of my argument and the only people who know for sure are those that code for these chips. We will have to agree to disagree and await some new games to find out for sure.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: 5150Joker


What I did to my card has no relevance to the discussion. The facts are that with an X1900 and X1800, there is no need to replace the stock cooler since heat is pushed out of the system and memory modules are cooled as well.

Then for heavens sake, why did you change the cooling on yours?

Because I run mine at 1.575v and bought it specifically for OC'ing. What I did with my card isn't a requirement for anyone else to do unlike the 7900 GT expensive warranty voiding mod.

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Because I run mine at 1.575v and bought it specifically for OC'ing. What I did with my card isn't a requirement for anyone else to do unlike the 7900 GT expensive warranty voiding mod.

What you did to your card was expensive and warranty voiding. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

 

[OCedHrt]

It seems to me that the OP was already decided on NV before he even made this thread. Several pages of get ATI were ignored while he looked for justification for a NV purchase.

And when it comes to drivers, I've had much better experiences with the Catalyst than with NVidia's. I should also mention that the 84.21 drivers on nvidia's website right now aren't signed etiher (maybe didn't pass MSFT's validation?). The Catalyst drivers on the otherhand, are always logo'd. Yet I don't hear any ATI fanboy calling out NVidia's drivers. I think (just speculating here) that those who say ATI drivers suck are the people who switched to NVidia in the early ATI Rage days and those who stuck with ATI until now has never used NVidia.

Not that this is relevant.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Because I run mine at 1.575v and bought it specifically for OC'ing. What I did with my card isn't a requirement for anyone else to do unlike the 7900 GT expensive warranty voiding mod.

What you did to your card was expensive and warranty voiding. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Actually its your stupidity that knows no bounds. What I do with my card vs. a stock XTX has no relevance to this discussion. OC'ing an XT/XTX isn't required to attain the same kind of performance one theoretically gets by having to void the warranty on a 7900 GT by adding an aftermarket cooler + conductive ink. Use your little brain and try to put the obvious together.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: OCedHrt
It seems to me that the OP was already decided on NV before he even made this thread. Several pages of get ATI were ignored while he looked for justification for a NV purchase.

And when it comes to drivers, I've had much better experiences with the Catalyst than with NVidia's. I should also mention that the 84.21 drivers on nvidia's website right now aren't signed etiher (maybe didn't pass MSFT's validation?). The Catalyst drivers on the otherhand, are always logo'd. Yet I don't hear any ATI fanboy calling out NVidia's drivers. I think (just speculating here) that those who say ATI drivers suck are the people who switched to NVidia in the early ATI Rage days and those who stuck with ATI until now has never used NVidia.
Not that this is relevant.

Cant remember where I said it. Have been posting a lot in Video lately. So I'll just repeat it.
Overall I've had fewer issues with nVidia.

I have owned a Rage Pro, a Rage Pro LT (in my Prostar laptop) a Radeon 64MB DDR (VIVO of course), a regular 8500, a hercules 9700 Pro, and finally an ATI X800 Pro. Not to mention a friend with a 9500 that I spent way too much time working on.
I will agree that the Catalysts improved over time, but it always seemed like at least two games had issues with ATI in each generation I owned. Not to mention weaker OpenGL performance than an equivelant GeForce. I didnt mind it so much and stuck with them for many years. Finally the BS piled up too high and this past Xmas I gave myself an evga 7800GT.
Cant believe I waited so long to make the switch. The only issues I've had so far were curser problems in a few games and newer drivers took care of that. Granted, I prefer Half Life 2 to Doom3 but the performance boost was enough to make both very playable.
As for the HDR issue in Oblivion: If I can play at a high resolution, I dont need AA. Thats true for just about any game I like. Its only useful to me in Dungeon Keeper 2 which maxes out at 800x600.

The only thing I'll miss about ATI are the Ruby demos. And something tells me I'll forget about her soon enough.

 

[cubeless]

the 512m his 1800xt at ne for $279 ar and iloveati code looks like a pretty good deal... pushes the equation back at the 1800 a little...

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Because I run mine at 1.575v and bought it specifically for OC'ing. What I did with my card isn't a requirement for anyone else to do unlike the 7900 GT expensive warranty voiding mod.

What you did to your card was expensive and warranty voiding. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Actually its your stupidity that knows no bounds. What I do with my card vs. a stock XTX has no relevance to this discussion. OC'ing an XT/XTX isn't required to attain the same kind of performance one theoretically gets by having to void the warranty on a 7900 GT by adding an aftermarket cooler + conductive ink. Use your little brain and try to put the obvious together.

You voided the warranty on your card in order to get better performance out of it and then you run around saying that people should not modify their 7900GT for the very same reason. What you did to your card is not only relevant to the conversation but ironic considering how you try and bash people for doing it to their cards. There is a clear guide on how to do a volt mod and it's safer, easier and cheaper than water cooling

You are now awarded the crown of hypocritical troll. Maybe I can get the mods to give you a custom title.