X800XL vs. 6800GT

[EightySix Four]

Well, that means nvidia shot itself in the foot, most of their cards in people's computers don't support SM3 either.. It lowers my opinion of ubisoft that they would basically say ~80% of you aren't worth getting the full graphics, even though within a month we could have made your cards run it just as well!

(I run a 9700 pro, and although I'm sure I could've handled this game with an alright resolution with pretty good detail, if no 1024x768 with full detail, they basically shut me out of any graphical goodness I could've gotten, which frankly pisses me off... Nvidia makes great cards but saying SM3 is all that is bullshit, and that's from a programmer's stand point.)

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Creig, what prevents ATI R300 thru 480 from being branded SM3.0 compliant?
Also, what allows Nvidia NV40 thru 46 to be branded SM3.0 compliant?
What are the benefits of having it?
What do you lose by not having it?

Do you believe developers will NOT proceed to code games from the bottom up using SM3.0? Do you think they'll skip right over to SM4.0?

The thing is, you and I both know what the proper buy is. And it's not current ATI products with their aged tech. Are they great cards? By all means. Are they the greatest? By no means.

By a PCI-E or AGP (when available, should be soon) X800XL today and save some dough now, but will have to just buy another card soon with SM3.0 compliance. So, is that really saving money if you have to buy 2 cards relatively close together?
Sure, you can sell the X800XL and take a hit on it. But that's not very practical when you could have just bought the 6800GT and be done with it knowing full well that it was made to eat pure SM3.0 for breakfast.

I would like to see a 100% pure SM3.0 game run side by side on a X800XL and a 6800GT. I think 6800GT owner would be pleasantly surprised when the reviewers pick apart the inefficiency at which the ATI SM2.0b card runs SM3.0 while the NV4x runs it as smooth and efficient as it was intended to.

I now have a X800XTPE thanks to Rollo and I am just waiting for new games to come out to see what happens. I have a feeling that the ATI cards are called SM2.0b compiant and not SM3.0 compliant for a reason, and I get to see it first hand. My GT will do just fine.

Wuv,
Keys

The programmers who developed CryENGINE for FarCry said SM3 REALLY DOES NOT EVEN MAKE THA BIG A DIFFERENCE, even if the engine had been coded from the ground up sm3, and they changed it down to sm2b, you still wouldn't see tha much a difference, SM3 is a great marketing gimmick, and while I have written some DX stuff for fun, I have gone through it and there's not that big a difference. And on HDR, ATI's hardware is capable of it in a different way, and it is slower than nvidia's method, but hell even with nvidia's method you still chug along with HDR enabled, so what's the point?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: dev0lution
Just ordered the ATI X800 XL from newegg today for $304...hopefully it'll be here in time for the weekend!!!!!

Congrats!! You should be happy with it. Great card from what I hear. What do you think you'll get for it when you sell it and purchase the next gen ATI or current gen nvidia card?
304.00 is a great price. Is that shipped?

 

[slash196]

My two cents:

I love my GT (pci-e)...but I also overpaid for it. Gotta say price/performance = XL. Now, obviously the lack of shaders, blah blah, but money talks loudest.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Pep
I've narrowed it down to those 2 cards for my new upgrade...I plan to do it every 2 years from now on.

Which card would be the smarter choice, with that in mind?

My current card is the RADEON 9500 PRO, a solid but aged product. The other hardware I have is a 2-year-old P4 2.4ghz running on a 533 bus motherboard. Replacing this hardware is a possibility but I would prefer to just replace the video card if I could. Still considering it though.

I have heard that the x800s don't support shader 3.0, while the 6800 does...is that true?

Thanks in advance for any advice. Great forum!

Hey guys!

Drop the SM2.0 vs 3.0 stuff. He's got an AGP mobo and doesn't wanna upgrade it too.

X800XL in AGP in April? Yeah maybe. Lately, track record for nVidia and ATI ain't too good on when supply will really show up.

I've got an AGP mobo and the x800xl looks good on paper. But the agp isn't here yet, we don't know when it will be. Likely there will be price gouging as usual initially.

All I can say is I just bought a 6800GT (money where my mouth is?). Didn't wanna wait for an "expected" supply date. Look around OP. I got a used (barely used, I hope- still in the mail to me from a member here) ) 6800GT for $300. There are some new-in-the box 6800GTs, still shrink wrapped for $310. At least there was in the last few days in our FS/FT section.

Bottom line, as good as the x800xl sounds, that's PCIe, and we haven't seen any benchies/tests on the x800xl (with the agp bridge) NOR is it available yet.

My .02

Fern

 

[whoster69]

I'm finding this discussion really interesting. Thanks to all who have contributed. I'm in a similiar (but someone different situation). I'm getting ready to build a new PC in May-June that will have an AMD 64 (not sure which, probably something in the $300 price range at the time), a new motherboard, a gig or two of ram and upgrade my old ATI 9700 Pro to something new. I'm looking at both ATI and nVidia (since I've owned both). I'll probably spend around $300 for a video card as well (whatever the prices are in late May to early June). Right now I'm trying to figure out what's available in the US, what's the better buy, and what matters (like shader model support and video playback, etc.).

Thanks for the info and please keep it coming!

 

[Matthias99]

I've got an AGP mobo and the x800xl looks good on paper. But the agp isn't here yet, we don't know when it will be. Likely there will be price gouging as usual initially.

Unless you count this one that's in stock at Newegg, but that would be cheating. It is an AIW card -- but $410 for an AIW X800XL in AGP isn't *that* bad a price, considering the MSRP on it is probably $350-400 anyway (assuming the non-AIW is $300 MSRP). It sounds like it will be a month or two before the X800XL AGP is available, and yes, it will probably start at $400+ just like the PCIe ones did (although they got down to and below MSRP in about six weeks).

At the same price, the 6800GT is a better card -- I don't think anyone will dispute that. For $70-100 less, I don't think the lack of SM3 is a big disadvantage right now. There's all of one game on the market currently supporting it, and that game (FarCry) also supports SM2.0b on R4XX cards for nearly identical performance. It seems unlikely that PS3.0 will provide huge performance gains over PS2.0 in situations that will give playable framerates on today's cards, and I have serious doubts that the more advanced features of VS3.0 (such as true HW displacement mapping) can actually be used with reasonable performance on even a 6800U (6800U SLI, maybe -- but that's a really expensive solution and no games currently use it anyway).

Also, Farcry's HDR does not use SM3.0 (I'm not sure about the stencil shadowing in Chronicles Of Riddick). It uses an NVIDIA-specific extension -- but there are other ways to do HDR through SM2.0/3.0 that will work on both NVIDIA and ATI cards (HL2 is supposed to be adding this at some point). See the RTHDRIBL demo for an example.

 

[nRollo]

There are actually 4 SM3 games Mathias. (Far Cry, Pain Killer, Pitfall, Pacific Fighters) and some others currently released that are supposed to be. (maybe patches in the works?)

I agree it's not a big disadvantage today, I consider it insurance for tomorrow. I don't want to be the guy who can't get the possible performance benefit of SM3, or the effect at all in the case of HDR or softstencil shadows.

 

[fstime]

X800XL, three x800xls are avialible at newegg for 300 dollars, plus they are avialible at compusa. That would be my choice. I would'nt pay 100 more bucks for a card with some SM3 I dont even use.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
There are actually 4 SM3 games Mathias. (Far Cry, Pain Killer, Pitfall, Pacific Fighters) and some others currently released that are supposed to be. (maybe patches in the works?)

I agree it's not a big disadvantage today, I consider it insurance for tomorrow. I don't want to be the guy who can't get the possible performance benefit of SM3, or the effect at all in the case of HDR or softstencil shadows.

Oh really? Aren't you the same Rollo who previously said:

Originally posted by: Rollo
Here's a tip for you Sectorzero: You're usually better off buying what's best for games when they're actually available than what is available when the games are in development.

Originally posted by: Rollo
What did I learn "Cindy" hasn't? To buy your cards for the games you're currently playing, because you can ONLY be disappointed trying to buy for the future.

Originally posted by: Rollo
Never seems to be a shortage of brand new members to hop on the board and say,"You'll see! The future games will prove me right!"

Originally posted by: Rollo
The only smart gamer buys his equipment for the games that are out and matter to him. Fools buy cards in hopes they'll have some magic "future proof" card.

Your ability to change your opinion depending on which way the Nvidia flag is blowing is simply staggering.

 

[strend]

Pricewatch.com is your friend!

AGP 6800GT $337

http://www.bestbargainpc.com/apnvge68gtfx.html

AGP 6800GT $338

http://www.gameve.com/gve/Store/ProductDetails.aspx?sku=VC-PNY-005

I would order from gameve myself. Used them before, no issues and fast service.

AGP x800XL isn't listed on the pricewatch yet.....

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
The thing is, you and I both know what the proper buy is. And it's not current ATI products with their aged tech.

Just stop right there, Rollo. I mean, Keys. I never presumed to put words in your mouth so don't start doing it to me.

By a PCI-E or AGP (when available, should be soon) X800XL today and save some dough now, but will have to just buy another card soon with SM3.0 compliance.

And exactly why is that? One (one!) game developer has said one (one!) upcoming title won't support SM2.0. And the visual difference between SM2.0 and SM3.0 has been shown to be minimal, at best. The biggest feature, HDR, causes even high end cards to drop framerates by 40%-50%.

So somebody who buys a 6600 today is somehow in better shape for playing future game than the guy who buys an X800XL simply because the 6600 has SM3.0 support? I don't think so.

I would like to see a 100% pure SM3.0 game run side by side on a X800XL and a 6800GT. I think 6800GT owner would be pleasantly surprised when the reviewers pick apart the inefficiency at which the ATI SM2.0b card runs SM3.0 while the NV4x runs it as smooth and efficient as it was intended to.

Again, the biggest SM3.0 benefit mentioned so far has nothing to do with visual effects, but ease of coding for developers and a speed bump for some operations. And before you say it, yes, it's a good thing and will eventually be adopted by ATI as well. But most game developers aren't going to exclude the current installed user base that uses SM2.0 any more than ATI or Nvidia would completely drop AGP simply because PCI-E is out.

 

[rbV5]

Best advice:

Don't buy hardware today for tommorrows games.

AGP, the best bet currently is likely 6800GT
PCI, its likely the X800 XL

IMO, neither card is a good match for the OP's system. If it were me, I would consider spending the money on a new platform first.

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
There are actually 4 SM3 games Mathias. (Far Cry, Pain Killer, Pitfall, Pacific Fighters) and some others currently released that are supposed to be. (maybe patches in the works?)

I agree it's not a big disadvantage today, I consider it insurance for tomorrow. I don't want to be the guy who can't get the possible performance benefit of SM3, or the effect at all in the case of HDR or softstencil shadows.

Oh really? Aren't you the same Rollo who previously said:

Originally posted by: Rollo
Here's a tip for you Sectorzero: You're usually better off buying what's best for games when they're actually available than what is available when the games are in development.

Originally posted by: Rollo
What did I learn "Cindy" hasn't? To buy your cards for the games you're currently playing, because you can ONLY be disappointed trying to buy for the future.

Originally posted by: Rollo
Never seems to be a shortage of brand new members to hop on the board and say,"You'll see! The future games will prove me right!"

Originally posted by: Rollo
The only smart gamer buys his equipment for the games that are out and matter to him. Fools buy cards in hopes they'll have some magic "future proof" card.

Your ability to change your opinion depending on which way the Nvidia flag is blowing is simply staggering.

OWN3D

 

[doublejbass]

I want in on this mess!

What I want to know, is are there any NVidia-based 6800GTs with as good a warranty program as ATI's, and HSFs that don't sound like leafblowers? BFG is ruled out with that big HSF that's louder than EVERY OTHER FAN IN MY SYSTEM.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Rollo
There are actually 4 SM3 games Mathias. (Far Cry, Pain Killer, Pitfall, Pacific Fighters) and some others currently released that are supposed to be. (maybe patches in the works?)

Sorry, I didn't realize Painkiller had been patched (it did not support SM3.0 at release). The other two are not exactly big mainstream titles that most gamers would have, and I have not seen any numbers on whether or not SM3.0 makes any meaningful difference in those games (any idea?)

Certainly, SM3.0 has been relatively slow to catch on. From what I've seen and what I know about graphics programming, the big benefits don't really come until you have hardware powerful enough to push lots of *big* pixel shaders and liberally use features like displacement mapping, which the NV4X can't really do with decent performance.

I agree it's not a big disadvantage today, I consider it insurance for tomorrow. I don't want to be the guy who can't get the possible performance benefit of SM3, or the effect at all in the case of HDR or softstencil shadows.

As pointed out above, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy for future games that may or may not see any real benefit from the technology. Putting out an extra $100 now so you *might* have a 5-10% performance increase in some games released a year from now is not, IMO, a good "insurance policy".

HDR (in FC) and soft stencil shadows (in Chronicles Of Riddick) already wallop performance on a (single) 6800GT in today's games, so I find it unlikely you would be able to use many such features in tomorrow's presumably more demanding ones. Also, as I pointed out, games that do HDR through standard shaders (rather than FP framebuffers) will work on both NVIDIA and ATI hardware.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
There are actually 4 SM3 games Mathias. (Far Cry, Pain Killer, Pitfall, Pacific Fighters) and some others currently released that are supposed to be. (maybe patches in the works?)

I agree it's not a big disadvantage today, I consider it insurance for tomorrow. I don't want to be the guy who can't get the possible performance benefit of SM3, or the effect at all in the case of HDR or softstencil shadows.

Oh really? Aren't you the same Rollo who previously said:

Originally posted by: Rollo
Here's a tip for you Sectorzero: You're usually better off buying what's best for games when they're actually available than what is available when the games are in development.

Originally posted by: Rollo
What did I learn "Cindy" hasn't? To buy your cards for the games you're currently playing, because you can ONLY be disappointed trying to buy for the future.

Originally posted by: Rollo
Never seems to be a shortage of brand new members to hop on the board and say,"You'll see! The future games will prove me right!"

Originally posted by: Rollo
The only smart gamer buys his equipment for the games that are out and matter to him. Fools buy cards in hopes they'll have some magic "future proof" card.

Your ability to change your opinion depending on which way the Nvidia flag is blowing is simply staggering.

LOL
The only thing "staggering" is the lengths you'll go to try and contradict me, and how much you think you know about hardware you've never seen.

Creig, did it occur to you while sifting through all my old posts looking for these quotes that perhaps the questions being responded to might not be the same, the situation might not be the same, etc.?


A quote from when I was replying to "Cindy"? Cindy has been gone for years? I think what I was debating there was the lack of PS2 titles in 2003?

You'll really reach to try and prove your "points" Creig.

Nonetheless, my position hasn't changed a bit, as I stated in this thread:

I stand by my advice. If he said he upgrades every year, I'd say, "What's more important to you? Saving $70 or getting to see the new effects in games/possible faster performance in a few upcoming games".

He said two years- SM3 will have been the standard for almost three years at that point and I think it's safe to say there will be a fair amount of games out that use the nV40 feature set within that time. ATI will have these features as well this year, so for developers to use them will not be a consideration.

I don't think it could be any more straight forward than that, only a person choosing not to understand or a simpleton wouldn't?

When I said those things back then, PS2 was a new standard, and developers hadn't had the hardware long.

Developers have had the nV40 hardware for a year, SM3 has been the standard almost a year, and there's a huge installed user base of nV4X cards.

As far as the "bad performance" on future games: We didn't have SLI then, so the situation is not really the same is it, Creig? With SLI offering a 30-90% performance increase over a single 6800GT, it's not too unlikely I'll be able to play the upcoming games pretty well is it Creig?

If you don't want to think these features will be used by developers in games upcoming, by all means keep your 9500NP.

When I fire up Far Cry, I can check out the HDR. When I play Riddick, I can see the soft shadows. When I play SCCT I'll see the SM3, not SM1.1. Others? Maybe.

He said two years.
1. There are popular games out right now that have nV40 only features.
2. There is at least one upcoming in the same position.
3.Sm3 has been the MS standard for almost a year, nVidia has had parts out a year, and ATI will follow this year. While I can't tell you for sure all the developers pimping SM3 on nVs testimonial page will actually use it in the next two years, I'm not dumb enough to bet they won't.
4. X800XL AGPs currently cost more than 6800GTs.

Yeah, you own3d me with those mad quote culled skillz Creig? :roll:

 

[masshass81]

The said games that are written in SM3.0 also support 2.0b, correct?

Also, would the X800XL perform the same if not better w/ SM2.0b than 6800GT on SM3.0, just at the expense of the slight visual additions?

Or is SM2.0b not as efficient as SM3.0, therefore running slower?

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
LOL
The only thing "staggering" is the lengths you'll go to try and contradict me, and how much you think you know about hardware you've never seen.

I didn't know that people are required to own an item in order to know something about it. If so, why are you making comments about the X800XL? I didn't realize you had one in your collection.

Creig, did it occur to you while sifting through all my old posts looking for these quotes that perhaps the questions being responded to might not be the same, the situation might not be the same, etc.?

A quote from when I was replying to "Cindy"? Cindy has been gone for years? I think what I was debating there was the lack of PS2 titles in 2003?

You'll really reach to try and prove your "points" Creig.

The quotes I pulled simply show that YOU will go to any lengths to try and prove your "points". Even to taking a 180 degree stance on a subject if it will be to Nvidia's advantage.

Nonetheless, my position hasn't changed a bit, as I stated in this thread:
I stand by my advice. If he said he upgrades every year, I'd say, "What's more important to you? Saving $70 or getting to see the new effects in games/possible faster performance in a few upcoming games".

He said two years- SM3 will have been the standard for almost three years at that point and I think it's safe to say there will be a fair amount of games out that use the nV40 feature set within that time. ATI will have these features as well this year, so for developers to use them will not be a consideration.

Once again, you're now arguing that you SHOULD buy for the future because it's an Nvidia only feature when you used to say you SHOULDN'T buy for the future back when it was an ATI only feature.

Really consistent and totally objective advice, I'm sure.

I don't think it could be any more straight forward than that, only a person choosing not to undersatnd or a simpleton wouldn't?

When I said those things back then, PS2 was a new standard, and developers hadn't had the hardware long.

Developers have had the nV40 hardware for a year, SM3 has been the standard almost a year, and there's a huge installed user base of nV4X cards.

Large base of nV4X cards? Probably. Even larger base of SM2.0 based cards? Probably.

As far as the "bad performance" on future games: We didn't have SLI then, so the situation is not really the same is it, Creig? With SLI offering a 30-90% performance increase over a single 6800GT, it's not too unlikely I'll be able to play the upcoming games pretty well is it Creig?

So in other word you'll need TWO video cards in order to play upcoming games adequately with HDR and SM3.0? Sounds very mainsteam. I'm sure EVERYBODY is going to want to spend $700+ for it. Or not.

If you don't want to think these features will be used by developers in games upcoming, by all means keep your 9500NP.

Aaah... I was wondering when your ego was going to throw that one in there. My 9500NP is doing just fine with today's games, thanks for asking. Much better than your 5800U, I'll bet.

When I fire up Far Cry, I can check out the HDR. When I play Riddick, I can see the soft shadows. When I play SCCT I'll see the SM3, not SM1.1. Others? Maybe.

Good for you. I'm sure the overall effect will be right up there with the SM2.0 "shiny pipes" you always scoffed at.

He said two years.
1. There are popular games out right now that have nV40 only features.
2. There is at least one upcoming in the same position.
3.Sm3 has been the MS standard for almost a year, nVidia has had parts out a year, and ATI will follow this year. While I can't tell you for sure all the developers pimping SM3 on nVs testimonial page will actually use it in the next two years, I'm not dumb enough to bet they won't.
4. X800XL AGPs currently cost more than 6800GTs.

1. One popular game in which the publisher has already said that there is no real difference in visual quality.
2. Oh boy, add one more title to the rest I can count on one hand. Which one is it?
3. Sure the developers will be using it. They'll also still be using SM2.0. SM3.0 is evolutionary, not revolutionary.
4. Hello!!!! An ALL-IN-WONDER X800XL costs more than a 6800GT. You know, VIVO + TV Tuner. Regular version AGP X800XL's aren't out yet but I'm pretty sure they'll be less than the ALL-IN-WONDER version.

Really, you need to get your eyes checked because I've pointed that out before.

Yeah, you own3d me with those mad quote culled skillz Creig? :roll:

That wasn't my post. I prefer to let you talk yourself into a corner and let the evidence speak for itself.

 

[SilverTrine]

I don't think anyone with any sense would conclude that you somehow know what will happen in the next two years as games come out where developers really use SM3/nV40s feature set? Or do you have a time machine?

Well we have a fairly good idea Rollo, everyone in the business has already chimed in on the matter. We've heard from the Far Cry developers, all the experts at Beyond3d, we've heard from people who program games for a living. People who frankly know more on the subject than either you or me Rollo. Their conclusion is that Sm3.0 will streamline some operations but Sm2.0 is capable of doing anything Sm3.0 can do. Its really that simple.

As far as a few effects here or there on games, well both companies have paid developers to implement this effect or that for years. Remember Tru-Form it was a nice feature that Nvidia did not have, it made images look better. I cant remember people dumping their Nvidia cards and rushing out and buying ATi cards because of this mild improvement in image quality.

So its pretty funny that you'd tout some obscure feature like stencil shadows as being the deciding reason for getting one card over another. You're really reaching now Rollo!

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

My recommendation....a vanilla 6600 PCI-E. I know your current board doesn't support PCI-E......that's why you need a new one.

A budget PCI-E MB/CPU combo will be in the $250(US) range. Drop a few more dollars for the cheapest SLI board. A 6600 PCI-E will easily match your 9500 PRo and they sell for $100. So for $350 or so, you now have slightly better gaming performance and 10X better upgradability when prices start to drop. That's less than a 6800GT costs.

 

[imported_Pep]

Boy, this is a tough call. Lots to think about.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
My recommendation....a vanilla 6600 PCI-E. I know your current board doesn't support PCI-E......that's why you need a new one.

A budget PCI-E MB/CPU combo will be in the $250(US) range. Drop a few more dollars for the cheapest SLI board. A 6600 PCI-E will easily match your 9500 PRo and they sell for $100. So for $350 or so, you now have slightly better gaming performance and 10X better upgradability when prices start to drop. That's less than a 6800GT costs.

Good advice. This gives you an overall increase in gaming power NOW and leaves you the option to economically upgrade later.

 

[doublejbass]

I don't agree with jumping on the PCI-E bandwagon yet. But that's me.

 

[dev0lution]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: dev0lution
Just ordered the ATI X800 XL from newegg today for $304...hopefully it'll be here in time for the weekend!!!!!

Congrats!! You should be happy with it. Great card from what I hear. What do you think you'll get for it when you sell it and purchase the next gen ATI or current gen nvidia card?
304.00 is a great price. Is that shipped?

That's without tax/shipping. I ordered a couple other things (like a seagate 7200.8 200GB HDD) with it so didn't bother to break out those costs. I usually don't sell my old card, just in case I ever have the new card fail I have something to fall back on, so by the time it's 2 cards old it's usually not worth selling. Needed this card badly, as I'm using a FX 5200 PCI card :laugh:

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: doublejbass
I don't agree with jumping on the PCI-E bandwagon yet. But that's me.

As you said, definitely no need...yet.

But with the releases of the 6600GT and then the 6600 and then the X800XL that PCI-E products are getting to market sooner and are at more attractive price points. As Dell moves their mainstream rigs to PCI-E, this trend will only continue. It's also, obviously, the only option if you're like me and picking up an SLI board even though you plan to only run one card for a while.