Question x86 license value quickly dropping

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People have been thinking about the death of x86 since the early 90s - much in the same way people have been declaring "the year of the linux desktop" for the last 25 years or so. RISC/ARM doesn't need to replace (and will never actually replace) x86 until people feel like the grass is greener on the other side - i.e., like what happened to the Z80, 6502, PowerPC, etc
 

yuri69

Senior member
Jul 16, 2013
436
717
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Does anybody remember Windows RT? That was a hyped version of Windows 8 on ARM. It was not good. It forced using apps from the MS Store since that way it was possible to ensure binary compatibility.

Anyways, seeing how even standard x86 systems struggle with such basic things like accelerating Youtube videos properly, I don't have high hopes for "exotics". ARM's proposal is battery life, anything else?
 

carancho

Member
Feb 24, 2013
40
21
81
You literally ended the post with "how will x86 survive" so, uhh
No, I said "How do Intel and AMD survive as x86 chip makers". They're not the same thing! Intel could go foundry only, AMD could adopt ARM, both could sell more accelerators and other products and services. Both could continue producing low margin legacy x86 lines that are insufficient to sustain the companies as they're now unless they diversify into other products. In this scenario, they wouldn't "survive as (mainly) x86 chip makers".

(Zilog ceased production of the Z80 this year, so I'd say x86 outlives me by decades - and I'm 35.)
 
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carancho

Member
Feb 24, 2013
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81
Btw now it seems that Samsung is entering this market as well. It seems that almost all of the client market is contestable. AMD and Intel will be able to obtain rents if they offer unmatched products, but their license duopoly rents in this market are done.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,489
3,379
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It's really a stretch to call it rents when it isn't regularly recurring revenue and is from shipping a physical product to a customer when they ask to buy it.

It's just margin but for some reason you don't like their margin? Not sure what's up with that.
 
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Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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Btw now it seems that Samsung is entering this market as well. It seems that almost all of the client market is contestable. AMD and Intel will be able to obtain rents if they offer unmatched products, but their license duopoly rents in this market are done.

What do you mean when you say rents? Why would AMD compete with itself by releasing ARM CPU's?

You say:

Nobody proposed the death of x86 as a thesis here.

Then go on to say:

AMD and Intel will be able to obtain rents if they offer unmatched products, but their license duopoly rents in this market are done.

Sounds like you are declaring the death of x86 to me.
 
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carancho

Member
Feb 24, 2013
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Rents, in economics, are obtained when selling at prices far above marginal costs (which include the cost of capital). Rents, or pricing power, arise in different situations, among others: when there's a "natural" monopoly (think of suburban areas with only one ISP), when exclusivity is conferred though legal means (think patents, like Qualcomm 5G), or through differentiation via innovation (think nVidia GPUs). They reflect on above-market margins for comparable companies. nVidia is clearly enjoying rents (in the economic sense) due to their successful GPUs. So x86 license holders did enjoy duopoly rents. (And if they didn't, Intel would have happily issued x86 licenses to more companies other than AMD and Via!)

Edit: actually, nVidia is enjoying some significant rents from their CUDA monopoly
 
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gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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So by that definition ARM is enjoying rents with exclusivity conferred through legal means.
Only really leaves RISCV as a viable rent-free option.

And in the classical definition - rent is any payment made for non-produced inputs such as location or for assets formed by creating official privilege over natural opportunities.
 
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B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
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Nah, there is far too much inertia behind x86 for it to "soon go to zero". Also, money isn't always predictive of how good a product becomes. AMD with a shoestring budget launched Zen against the behemoth that is Intel and has done quite well.

To piggy back on this, see what the US Govt has their super computers built out of. Seems to be a lot of x86 CPU's used in them...

For anyone here who doesn't know, AMD has an x86 license because IBM wanted a second x86 chip supplier to Intel (maybe the US Govt was involved in that? because critical military contracts seem to always want supplier options), Cyrix / VIA has one too, let us dust off our 586's buried in storage and now Intel and AMD are joined at the hip due to cross licensing.

But, the US Govt denies (server grade stuff) x86 (and other) chip sales and manufacturing ability to China (and other countries), for national security reasons; meaning x86 is not something that will be supplanted by ARM and it will never go away.
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
136
So by that definition ARM is enjoying rents with exclusivity conferred through legal means.
Only really leaves RISCV as a viable rent-free option.

And in the classical definition - rent is any payment made for non-produced inputs such as location or for assets formed by creating official privilege over natural opportunities.

Anyone that wants to learn more about rent-seeking and how it affects us in the modern day, Rigged by Dean Baker is very good, available free online.
 

Nothingness

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2013
2,739
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But, the US Govt denies (server grade stuff) x86 (and other) chip sales and manufacturing ability to China (and other countries), for national security reasons; meaning x86 is not something that will be supplanted by ARM and it will never go away.
Agree, though "never" is quite a long time 😀

BTW why do you think CPU companies like Arm have design centers outside of the US? That allows some relaxation of export control (though obviously not all of them). RISC-V consortium relocated outside the US partly because of that.

And if x86 only survived because of US subsidies and US gov buying x86, it would tell a lot about the free market (note I don't think x86 only survives thanks to that, far from it). That just doesn't prove anything about x86 from a technical point of view, only about national preference (which makes sense).
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
961
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This is stupid RE: X86 and Arm and USG. USG doesn’t really care about that ultimately, they have other ways to control China et. Al. Yes they tried with Huawei but it doesn’t matter. The cat’s outta the bag on Arm and if they wanted to do something about it they’d have to directly intervene in the market and tax Arm chips or seize Arm.

They’re not, and the vendors that are most popular with Arm in PCs, hyperscalers, or phones are American firms or under a tacit US partner status (MediaTek/Sammy) anyways.

You have to actually enumerate this stuff. You can’t just say “X86 full Americuh so Arm will neverrr replace”. It’s hand wavy and silly.
 
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TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,990
744
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For anyone here who doesn't know, AMD has an x86 license because IBM wanted a second x86 chip supplier to Intel
That wasn't a license for x86, intel gave amd their plans and specs for their CPU so that amd can manufacture an intel CPU 1:1 under the AMD name. You could sawp between an intel ans amd CPU on any mobo because they were the exact same. This went on far beyond the IBM deal and amd would 1:1 copy intel cpus for a long time, even after the deal was over.

There is no license for x86 but there are licenses for everything else that is needed to make a x86 core that will be useful today, that's why intel and amd have a cross license deal going on, they both need technologies the other one has to make modernd cpus.
VIA isn't in on that cross license deal which is why their cores are a that low on performance.

On topic:
With so many x86 based handheld gaming things and miniPCs coming out arm is the one that should be worrying because x86 is starting to become a real alternative for arm in those fields, and not just alternative but often better because they don't need any translation layers and they have more compatible GPUs, especially the amd parts but intel is also working very hard on making their gpu drivers better all the time.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,489
3,379
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VIA isn't in on that cross license deal which is why their cores are a that low on performance.
Centaur had a cross license deal with Intel as a result of a settlement in 2003 which also granted them the right to make x86 processors provided they weren't socket compatible with Intel processors.
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
136
This is stupid RE: X86 and Arm and USG. USG doesn’t really care about that ultimately, they have other ways to control China et. Al. Yes they tried with Huawei but it doesn’t matter. The cat’s outta the bag on Arm and if they wanted to do something about it they’d have to directly intervene in the market and tax Arm chips or seize Arm.

They’re not, and the vendors that are most popular with Arm in PCs, hyperscalers, or phones are American firms or under a tacit US partner status (MediaTek/Sammy) anyways.

You have to actually enumerate this stuff. You can’t just say “X86 full Americuh so Arm will neverrr replace”. It’s hand wavy and silly.

One cannot invoke ARM vs x86 and not consider history; to be hyperbolic and think that x86 is threatened because ARM has gotten popular is non-nonsensical. ARM fills a role and x86 fills a role, but x86 will always be more dominant in PC and HPC (non-AI) workloads.

Not to argue for arguments sake; but who / what funds large era defining technologies? Our modern day technology is a direct result of the USG military industrial complex post WW2. And x86 is a direct result of that. If our modern PC computing infrastructure was based on a different ISA than x86, then we would be talking about "that" vs ARM.

ARM will never replace x86 because x86 is already established, just like COBOL in banking is there and will always be there.

And there isn't much to enumerate, all of this can be found with a modicum of goolge-fu:

"Fairchild Semiconductor’s first products were silicon-based transistors for military and later industrial applications." https://www.britannica.com/money/Fairchild-Semiconductor

Former Fairchild employees started Intel, Intel came up with x86, and Intel's first big customer was Honeywell.

"Intel’s initial products were memory chips, including the world’s first metal oxide semiconductor, the 1101, which did not sell well. However, its sibling, the 1103, a one-kilobit dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) chip, was successful and the first chip to store a significant amount of information. It was purchased first by the American technology company Honeywell Incorporated in 1970 to replace the core memory technology in its computers." https://www.britannica.com/money/Intel

And who did Honeywell have a lot of business with? Looks like the USG.

"Among Honeywell’s products are building controls (including heating, ventilating, and air-conditioning systems), electronic switches and motors, alarms, industrial automation systems, microelectronics, medical instruments, military and commercial avionics, and space systems. The company’s control equipment for defense applications ranges from missile and bomb guidance systems to cockpit displays and optical and electronic sensors. It is a major producer of auxiliary power units for aircraft (used for main engine starting, cabin cooling, and electric power generation), turbofan and turboprop engines for business and regional aircraft, engine control systems, environmental control systems for aircraft and spacecraft, and wheels and brakes for commercial and military aircraft. Its automotive products include truck brakes, turbochargers, oil and air filters, spark plugs, air bags, and seat belt systems. The company also produces a variety of fibres, plastics, and specialty chemicals. In 2000 it employed about 125,000 people worldwide." https://www.britannica.com/money/Honeywell-International-Inc

So yes, the USG has a vested interest in protecting (as in keeping the latest and greatest performance away from adversaries) x86 and everything around it, including advanced IC development and manufacturing.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
961
655
106
I’m not going to dignify all of that by addressing every piece as if I’m new to US industrial policy, but I’ll just say USG is not in the business of preventing Arm vendors from succeeding for one, and X86’s legacy status does not give it mythical powers.

It’s a moat, but if you’re using “never” in 2024 after Zen 5’s mess and Google, MS, Amazon rolling out or using their own servers with Neoverse, Nvidia building Eva (Grace V2 come 2026), and Qualcomm in WoA going 0 to 1 and even winning the XPS lineup — you might be blind, or willfully ignorant. X86 won’t go anywhere anytime soon but even skeptics here are changing their tune about where the wind is blowing, it’s rather clear.
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
136
People will never learn. Replace x86 with RISC/vendor CPU in the early 90s. Learn a bit of history.

? History in terms of?

Intel tried to move the industry with IA64, but just fell back to beefing up x86 when AMD was successful with the x64 extensions.
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
136
I’m not going to dignify all of that by addressing every piece as if I’m new to US industrial policy, but I’ll just say USG is not in the business of preventing Arm vendors from succeeding for one, and X86’s legacy status does not give it mythical powers.

It’s a moat, but if you’re using “never” in 2024 after Zen 5’s mess and Google, MS, Amazon rolling out or using their own servers with Neoverse, Nvidia building Eva (Grace V2 come 2026), and Qualcomm in WoA going 0 to 1 and even winning the XPS lineup — you might be blind, or willfully ignorant. X86 won’t go anywhere anytime soon but even skeptics here are changing their tune about where the wind is blowing, it’s rather clear.

x86 is not mythical because of the hardware in and of itself, it is here for the long haul because of software and backwards compatibility.

If you are arguing purpose built hardware for specific workloads fine, but general purpose computing, personal computing and high performance computing will always lean to x86 based hardware (because software / technical debt).

Too much software and hardware would have to be changed for ARM to become dominant over x86.

I have an M1 Mac Mini, neat and capable hardware, but sure as the sky is blue it cannot run a VM of full featured x86 Windows.

And I highly doubt we will ever see the day where there is ARM based CPU personal computer giving the same gaming experience as a high end gaming PC.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,990
744
126
People will never learn. Replace x86 with RISC/vendor CPU in the early 90s. Learn a bit of history.
The Motorola 68000 series was replaced by powerPC which was arm/risc in the amiga and mac, the amiga went under and the mac went with x86 after powerpc maxed out. Now apple is back on arm but as soon as it hits the ceiling they will switch to something else again.
Also the ps3 was powerpc but the PS also never was x86 to begin with.
 

mpumalanga

Junior Member
Feb 18, 2022
6
14
51
It’s a moat, but if you’re using “never” in 2024 after Zen 5’s mess and Google, MS, Amazon rolling out or using their own servers with Neoverse, Nvidia building Eva (Grace V2 come 2026), and Qualcomm in WoA going 0 to 1 and even winning the XPS lineup — you might be blind, or willfully ignorant.

What is this "Zen 5's mess" you are referring to ?
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,530
676
136
The Motorola 68000 series was replaced by powerPC which was arm/risc in the amiga and mac, the amiga went under and the mac went with x86 after powerpc maxed out. Now apple is back on arm but as soon as it hits the ceiling they will switch to something else again.
Also the ps3 was powerpc but the PS also never was x86 to begin with.

Right, and then PS4 switched to x86 after the nightmare that was PS3 game development; but x86 PS4 had to be proved out to Sony for buy in.



Found the interview, thank you archive.org

 
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