XBOX Live and CAT5e

[casio3476]

I just got off the phone with xbox support, and decided to vent here since the xbox community forums are down.

I went out and bought a refurb unit today from my local game crazy, to replace my previous xbox that went bad.

I tried to connect to xbox live, with one problem, the xbox wont use cat5 cables over 30 feet.

30 FEET!!! for crying out loud!!

So i called xbox support, and guess what, they dont support using cables over 25 feet, the y would not help me at all, they said "Sorry"....

Does microsoft expect us to set our consoles up in the computer room?
Do the expect us to set our computers up in the TV room?

Now, correct me if im wrong, but isn't cat5e cable good for anything less than 100feet without a hub etc. to boost the signal?

They told me the xbox uses "frames" instead of the "packets" that computers use, and that frames degrade much more quickly and are less reliable.
If this is the case:
Why would microsoft use a less reliable scheme for transfering data?
How does the xbox connect through routers that should you packets, why can I ping the xbox with "packets" of data from my PC.

For those of you who have an xbox and play system link games or use xbox live, How long is the cable connecting your console to the nearest router/modem?

***************
I think ill get a gamecube

 

[StageLeft]

eh, I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure the one I bought was 50 and have used XBL without issue.

With it I'd go directly from the XBox to my cable modem.

 

[bubbadu]

What about Cat6? Sorry I have only used networked my xbox once, and it was with a 25 foot cat5 cable... maybe Cat6 would be good enough to handle the distance....

-Bubbadu

 

[Angrymarshmello]

My cable from XBox to router is at least 20 feet.

My cousin uses a 50 foot cable

 

[Fiveohhh]

I've used cat5 at atleast about 60ft with no problems.. you getting interfearence somewhere?

 

[StageLeft]

*CONFIRMED* Category 5e 50 foot cable. It worked no problems when I had broadband.

 

[casio3476]

My cable is 30 feet long, and sitting coiled between the router and the machine, i am not getting any interference at all, the power cables are kept far away. On my previous system, the cable length I was using was near 150 feet, with **some problem, but nothing serious.

My current cable works fine from PC to router, but from xbox to router its a no go. A five footer works though....

 

[ScottMac]

Your XBox Support person was most likely one flavor of Idiot or another.

"Frames" is layer two, Ethernet (and they ARE using Ethernet). "Packets" are Layer Three, (IP, for example) the data units put into the Layer two Frames (and they ARE using TCP/IP).

To follow the Spec (and they DO want to follow spec), then, BY THE BOOK, they are only obligated to provide 10 Meters (~30 feet) over STRANDED Cat5 (or higher) cabling. The 100 Meter specification from the EIA/TIA says 90 meters of the cabling should be solid-conductor, with 5 Meters (~15 feet) of stranded on each end.

All that being said, unless you made the cabling yourself (i.e., didn't buy a commercial cable) and FUBAR'd the configuration, it should work well beyond the 30 feet limit specified. The spec actually defines signal levels, the "100 Meter Rule" is actually a guideline. If you follow the spec, and you did things right, then the manufacturers can guarantee that the cable will perform to spec out to (5M Stranded + 90 Meters Solid + 5 Meters Stranded). If you had the right equipment, you could make the cable as long as you want, as long as the proper signal levels are being met.

If you paid for that support, I'd ask for a refund and another tech. If you get some back-pressure, ask for the "Duty Manager" and explain why you feel that the person you talked to is not giving you adequate service.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[Smolek]

ive used a 100ft cord and it worked fine.

 

[StageLeft]

Scott you seem very knowledgable - is it possible that although I thought my 50 foot worked fine it could result in some packet loss and/or latency that I'd notice in games? I was on bellsouth DSL and was finding it difficult to find a lag-free wolfenstein game (for instance), but attributed that to my provider as opposed to length of cable.

 

[Wingznut]

I've got a 50-footer, as well... No issues.

 

[StageLeft]

I heard about a dude on the internet who had stringed together dozens of 100 footers across town and was playing on xbox lan with a friend fully 4 miles away!

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I heard about a dude on the internet who had stringed together dozens of 100 footers across town and was playing on xbox lan with a friend fully 4 miles away!

20,000 feet? I don't think so.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: Evadman

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I heard about a dude on the internet who had stringed together dozens of 100 footers across town and was playing on xbox lan with a friend fully 4 miles away!

20,000 feet? I don't think so.

Agreed.

He must have been using SOME sort of repeater.

 

[StageLeft]

No I saw pics it was strung along under cars, around fire hydrants, over streets, etc. It wasn't 4 miles though. It was 40. All just one long un-amplified cat 5e cable.

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: Evadman

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I heard about a dude on the internet who had stringed together dozens of 100 footers across town and was playing on xbox lan with a friend fully 4 miles away!

20,000 feet? I don't think so.

Agreed.

He must have been using SOME sort of repeater.

ya, 200 of 'em maybe.

 

[ScottMac]

The dozen 100 footers: BullSH!T. (and I mean that). Not on UTP.

RE: your lag: Yes, it's possible. (speculation here) ... if the signal was poor enough, or if you had a noise problem, or the signal-to-noise was marginal, then the lag you saw may have been from fubar'd traffic having to have been re-transmitted ( from either end).

This would be especially true for large chunks of data. By the time they hit the TCP or UDP segment of the stack (for the sake of discussion, let's say it's a 4500 byte chunk of data coming down from the top layer (application)), The 4500 Byte chunk gets lopped into the MSS (Max Segment Size) chunklets (let's say they're 2000 bytes). Then it goes to Layer three (TCP or UDP), Layer Three encapsulates the 2000 byte chunklets with some protocol information (TCP/UDP, CRC, etc) into a/some packet(s).... Then it goes to layer 2 (Ethernet, in this case) ...

Ethernet Frames are a maximum of 1500 bytes (total) in length. Ethernet breaks the 2000+ byte packet-encapsulated chunklet into however many frames it takes to contain the packets - plus the Ethernet protocol information - and passes it to Layer one (puts it on the cable as a series of baseband pulses (in the case of UTP/CatX cabling). The remaining data of the original chunk does the same process, so now we have 3 chunklets, and ~five or so frames of Ethernet.

If ONE BYTE gets trashed, ONE FRAME (layer two) is dropped, regardless of the size, the entire packet (layer three) (and possibly the entire segment (layer four)) gets re-transmitted.

All that takes time, time equals latency.

If the cabling is sub-standard, there can be excessive noise (which can be crosstalk or external interference) or a weak signal. The more frames that get fubar'd and dropped, the slower the connection appears to be (because of the re-transmit time).

The bottom line: if the cabling is not up-to-spec, the network doesn't perform at maximum capability. The usual symptoms are high CRC errors and late Collisions. A high re-transmission rate will look like a slow network. The only real way to tell is to "sniff" that cable segment (something like Ethereal) and look for the symptoms.

Standard disclaimers apply: some information may have been bent, folded, spindled, or mutilated for the sake of brevity and simplification.

I hope this helps you understand why good cabling is a necessity.

FWIW

Scott

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: ScottMac
Standard disclaimers apply: some information may have been bent, folded, spindled, or mutilated for the sake of brevity and simplification.

Nice!

(I hope you don't mind if I borrow your disclaimer every now and then. )

 

[StageLeft]

Thanks! I was kidding about the 4 and 40 mile lan, guys :evil: