xBox One's SoC is TSMC

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Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
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citavia.blog.de
Interesting. The subpar foundry didn't get one of the console contracts.

Doea that count as a point? The console SoCs contain Jaguar cores, big GPUs on large dies, and lots of other IP blocks. The first two alone were never done by GF so far. And would GF have enough tools ready to both ramp large console SoCs and large Kaveri APUs at about the same time?

So who was surprised then?
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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Forget the marketing spin, just look at the same components when they're implemented in a GF or Samsung process vs TSMC.

That's the thing, direct comparison are basically non-existent. I'd be surprised if TSMC wasn't the best though.

I mentioned before that TSMC lacks expertise in certain chips, and the xBox could be proof of it. A lot of people expected a GF problem because of the rumoured issues, turns out it has nothing to do with GF at all...
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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Doea that count as a point? The console SoCs contain Jaguar cores, big GPUs on large dies, and lots of other IP blocks. The first two alone were never done by GF so far. And would GF have enough tools ready to both ramp large console SoCs and large Kaveri APUs at about the same time?

So who was surprised then?

Nobody was surprised, it was just an attempt to rescue something out of not being able to blame GF for the Xbox problems. We all know that if GF had been fabbing the Xbox, they'd be the to blame for the supply problems...and it would also explain how AMD could afford the WSA (because of fabbing a huge chip at GF).

Believe me, TSMC fabbing the Xbox is some of the best news about AMD I've heard in some time, and I strongly suspect mrmt and a few others know it and were desperate for it to be GF instead.
 
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Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
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so what are those sizes? Hate to see people try to debunk one another and not provide evidence without having to sleuth yourself.
In Exophase's defense, he's talked about the subject before and had image comparisons. I'm sure he can repost it.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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TSMC has been in volume production of 28nm with high k metal gates for roughly 2 years.

http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&newsid=6181

TSMC is so far ahead of GF at 28nm that there was no contest. GF screwed up 28nm big time. only recently did news of 28nm SLP volume production at GF come out. the customer was Rockchip who was manufacturing ARM SOCs at GF 28nm SLP.

http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2013/20130617.aspx

What is interesting is MS has chosen TSMC 28nm HPM. After Qualcomm they are the second high profile / high volume customer to have chosen that process.

http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&newsid=7581&language=E

http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/28nm.htm

"TSMC also provides high performance for mobile applications (HPM) technology to address the need for applications requiring high speed as well as low leakage power. Such technology can provide better speed than 28HP and similar leakage power as 28LP. With such wide performance/leakage coverage, 28HPM is also ideal for many applications from networking, tablet, to mobile consumer products."

I would not be surprised if PS4 SOC was also made at TSMC 28nm HPM. the Xbox One GPU has been revealed to run at 853 Mhz with 2 geometry engines for a 1.71 G primitives per second throughput. The only information not revealed yet is the clock speed of the 8 jaguar cores. I think 2 Ghz on TSMC 28nm HPM is achievable.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
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Believe me, TSMC fabbing the Xbox is some of the best news about AMD I've heard in some time, and I strongly suspect mrmt and a few others know it and were desperate for it to be GF instead.

Why is this good news? My first intuitive thought is that if they were made at GF, the issue with the WSA would be gone. Assuming GF could deliver...
 

seitur

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
383
1
81
Interesting. I was leaning towards GloFo. Anyway - it would be interesting to know if PS4 SoC is also being made on TSMC HPM or on something else (somewhere else?).
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
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For example, you can compare the size of the VLIW5 SIMDs in Bobcat vs Llano, or Cortex-A9 in OMAP4430 vs Apple A5.

Bobcat is TSMC 40nm and Llano is GloFo 32nm, not the same.

I dont have the numbers at hand right now but if i remember correctly GloFos 28nm is a little better than TSMC 28nm both in density and electrical.

edit: Also, GloFo 28nm is Half Node of the 32nm HKMG SOI unlike TSMCs 28nm HKMG which is a Full Node over 40nm.
 
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raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
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Bobcat is TSMC 40nm and Llano is GloFo 32nm, not the same.

I dont have the numbers at hand right now but if i remember correctly GloFos 28nm is a little better than TSMC 28nm both in density and electrical.

GF 28nm is better in density than TSMC 28nm as that was one of the main advantages touted by GF for their gate first technique. but transistor performance and yields are better on TSMC 28nm. gate last has proven to superior than gate first on both performance and manufacturability. thats the reason for GF to lag TSMC so badly.
 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
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Why is this good news? My first intuitive thought is that if they were made at GF, the issue with the WSA would be gone. Assuming GF could deliver...
GloFo made the Xbox 360 chips, IIRC. It's possible that their 28nm process was not ramped up high enough back when the decisions were made, among other issues.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
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GF 28nm is better in density than TSMC 28nm as that was one of the main advantages touted by GF for their gate first technique. but transistor performance and yields are better on TSMC 28nm. gate last has proven to superior than gate first on both performance and manufacturability. thats the reason for GF to lag TSMC so badly.

I have no knowledge how much better yields one process has over the other(i believe it depends on the actual IC design and size) but as i have said above, GloFos 28nm is a Half Node over 32nm HKMG SOI strictly used by AMD.

The reason GloFo hasn't had a lot of customers at 28nm is not Yields or sub performing process over the competition. I dont DO believe they were never intended to use 28nm at high volume with AMD using 32nm. Dont forget that up until now, GloFo only used a single Fab, and AMD used every 32nm wafers they could have.

I believe things will start to change at GloFo with 22/20nm and 14XM. Since they will have two Fabs available at the time (2014) and both of those processes will also be available to everyone (not strictly AMD) and at the same time as the competition(TSMC).
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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I dont have the numbers at hand right now but if i remember correctly GloFos 28nm is a little better than TSMC 28nm both in density and electrical.

I'm pretty sure, but not 100% confident, that TSMC's HKMG process is superior* in terms of electrical parametrics to GF's HKMG process.

GF wins on density (gate first does that, no one argues otherwise), and with their desire to sell wafers and take a lower margin in the process they certainly win out on price.

* the topic of "superior" when it comes to electrical performance is one that can be quite confusing to people who have little or no background in EE, IC design, or process node development (I am not saying you don't, just saying I am sure there are folks reading this thread who may fall into that category).

So...when I speak of one node being superior to another I am generally thinking of the case where we normalize all the drive currents and leakages observed when one is comparing transistors of the exact same width (not length), at the same operating temperature, the same operating voltage, and the same lifetime-reliability.

For example, take a given (arbitrary) circuit and implement it in GF's 28nm and TSMC's 28nm. Put it at 1V, on a hot-plate heated to 105C, and clock how fast it goes.

At the same density (same xtor width's for the xtors in the circuit), TSMC's is going to clock faster. Alternatively you could clock it the same as the GF circuit by lowering the voltage, now it clocks just as fast but consumes less electricity. Alternatively you could keep the same voltage but shrink the circuit (smaller xtor width) itself which until you reach the same clockspeed. Etc.

In all these ways the TSMC process is superior to the GF process because of one reason, it is gate-last so it has an automatic (unavoidable) benefit to the drive current that gate-first doesn't provide (can't provide).

There are good reasons to go with gate-first, but they generally entail lowering production cost (higher max densities, albeit at the expense of drastically lower clocks and performance on a normalized* basis) and are not pursued for the purposes of delivering superior electrical parametrics.

(tl;dr - there is a darn good reason why no one on earth will have a gate-first process, including IBM and GF, come 20nm )
 

SocketF

Senior member
Jun 2, 2006
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(tl;dr - there is a darn good reason why no one on earth will have a gate-first process, including IBM and GF, come 20nm )
That's not 100% correct, STM's FDSOI@20nm, which will be produced at GF's fab will be GateFirst. But I also wonder if that decision would be its deathblow.
 
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raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
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I have no knowledge how much better yields one process has over the other(i believe it depends on the actual IC design and size) but as i have said above, GloFos 28nm is a Half Node over 32nm HKMG SOI strictly used by AMD.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4444/amd-llano-notebook-review-a-series-fusion-apu-a8-3500m

AMD Llano released in June 2011 manufactured on GF 32nm SOI. by the time Kaveri releases in early 2014 it would be 2.5 years to replace 32nm high performance SOI with 28nm high performance bulk process. for a half node thats the worst delay you can expect. Do you believe AMD would not have moved to 28nm bulk process if GF could get a 28nm bulk process with high k metal gates in volume production for Q4 2012. instead now it will happen in Q4 2013. the reason is GF 28nm was badly delayed. The very fact that AMD had to cook up Richland which was a clock bumped Trinity points to delays at GF 28nm.

Feb 2012 roadmap

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/5503/Screen Shot 2012-02-01 at 2.14.03 PM.png

Jan 2013 roadmap
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6567/AMD-024.jpg

The reason GloFo hasn't had a lot of customers at 28nm is not Yields or sub performing process over the competition. I dont believe they were never intended to use 28nm at high volume with AMD using 32nm. Dont forget that up until now, GloFo only used a single Fab, and AMD used every 32nm wafers they could have.

did you forget that Kaveri was revealed to public as early as Feb 2012 to be made on 28nm bulk and internally AMD must have decided even before. Once AMD knew how badly GF had screwed up 28nm they scrambled to change their roadmap with Richland and tried marketing it as though that was the plan from the start.

I believe things will start to change at GloFo with 22/20nm and 14XM. Since they will have two Fabs available at the time (2014) and both of those processes will also be available to everyone (not strictly AMD) and at the same time as the competition(TSMC).

As far as GF is concerned they have been all talk. Until 20nm products fabbed at GF reach the market everyone should take their statements with a huge mountain of salt.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
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Why is this good news? My first intuitive thought is that if they were made at GF, the issue with the WSA would be gone. Assuming GF could deliver...

It's good news as AMD is able to pay the WSA without needing to fab consoles at GF, as per the Q2 conference call.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/155...arnings-call-transcript?page=5&p=qanda&l=last

I think the key thing I would leave you with is you know we do have a commitment this year as you called it a $1.15 billion, be on track to meet the commitments. And as we finished half the year here, approximately half of those obligations have been extinguished.
So half way through (the bad half for sales) the year, AMD has paid GF roughly half of the WSA, even without the consoles being used on wafers. Barring some act of God, there will be no trouble paying the second half.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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About 10 years according to some people, however it seems to be quite flexible in payment terms as AMD has gone up and down half a $billion ($1bn to $1.5bn) in payments over recent years.
 

seitur

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
383
1
81
lol that's preety horrible deal they got there.

Seems previous AMD managment made themself personally good deal at cost of throwing AMD under the bus. Not that it would be first time in corporate world.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
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Doea that count as a point? The console SoCs contain Jaguar cores, big GPUs on large dies, and lots of other IP blocks. The first two alone were never done by GF so far.

Wow, when I said subpar I did mean that 28nm is late and probably missed the performance targets like all their other nodes, but I didn't imply they wouldn't be able to actually manufacture something like you are.

You are taking them to another subpar level, where they cannot economically manufacture a chip built under their design rules.

And would GF have enough tools ready to both ramp large console SoCs and large Kaveri APUs at about the same time?

They should have spare capacity. WSA quarterly commitments were close to 350MM last year, now they are around 280MM. If anything GLF should have a small capacity surplus, enough to accommodate a 70-80 million product like the XBO and that assuming that 28nm was built for AMD and AMD only. They would need more capacity if they had other customers.
 
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