xbox vs PC

[mehmetmunur]

The Xbox is not just a game console. Same goes for the upcoming playstation. Most of these manufacturers realize the importance of creating a media center/game console. As I stated earlier, the XBox is becoming an extension of the PC with the Windows Xp Media Center Edition 2005. As anand stated in his review, you will be able to stream recorded tv shows to your Xbox wirelessly. The new playstation is supposed to have PVR/DVR qualities as well, if I am not mistaken.

Just like hybrid car engines (part gasoline part electric), or hybrid cars (part minivan/part SUV, part sports car/part luxury sedan), the line between the definition of certain electronics equipment are blurring. Apple's new airport station, Netgear's new router, have media broadcast qualities. PDAs, cellphones and handheld computers are almost becoming one in the same. Look at the Nokia 6200, the new Nokia communicator (9000 series).

My conclusion is, in the near future it is going to be harder to define game consoles only as game consoles. Other functionalities will only add to the appeal of such hardware.

I have a DVR from time warner, probably with 80Gbs of space. I would love to have more room to store Tv shows in an upcoming Xbox, or playstation.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: mehmetmunur
The Xbox is not just a game console. Same goes for the upcoming playstation. Most of these manufacturers realize the importance of creating a media center/game console. As I stated earlier, the XBox is becoming an extension of the PC with the Windows Xp Media Center Edition 2005. As anand stated in his review, you will be able to stream recorded tv shows to your Xbox wirelessly. The new playstation is supposed to have PVR/DVR qualities as well, if I am not mistaken.

Just like hybrid car engines (part gasoline part electric), or hybrid cars (part minivan/part SUV, part sports car/part luxury sedan), the line between the definition of certain electronics equipment are blurring. Apple's new airport station, Netgear's new router, have media broadcast qualities. PDAs, cellphones and handheld computers are almost becoming one in the same. Look at the Nokia 6200, the new Nokia communicator (9000 series).

My conclusion is, in the near future it is going to be harder to define game consoles only as game consoles. Other functionalities will only add to the appeal of such hardware.

I have a DVR from time warner, probably with 80Gbs of space. I would love to have more room to store Tv shows in an upcoming Xbox, or playstation.

So what you're saying is consoles are starting to attain a fraction of the functionality PCs have always had?

 

[Thraxen]

Why lug your PC to a friend's house to play when you can do it online? And if you like sprawling on the couch with a gamepad in front of your TV, get a ~$25 wireless gamepad and output your computer to your TV. Should be able to do that with no extras; most modern video cards have s-video out and come with the s-video cable and the s-video to RCA adapter you'd need if your TV only has RCA video in. Consoles are for people with ~20/40 vision or worse who don't own a PC. Only other reasons are games that either don't come out for the PC at all or which do but months later... but I can do without a game if the maker is shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing it at all for the PC, and I can wait a few months for far, far better image quality if the maker is delaying the PC release. *shrug*

You missed the point. What if your friend(s) doesn't have a nice up-to-date PC? What if they don't have the game you want to play? I often haul my XBox with me on business trips (when driving) so I can play some games in the hotel room. It travels well and you can hook it up to just about any TV. I have a pretty fast PC (was top of the line when I built it), but I still use my XBox far, far more. Also, I play a lot of fighters and platformers. Those genres are simply lacking on the PC and console controllers are much better than anything the PC has for those types of games. I can't stand PC controllers... they are simply ass. Hell, even when I do play a game that works better with a controller on the PC I'm usually using a console controller with an adaptor for PC use.

Then you have the whole friends issue. Yes, you can play the PC or XBox online and the PC does have the advantage there in many cases. Trust me, I know. I spent hundreds of hours with Unreal Tournament (clans, tournaments, leagues, etc...) and hundreds of more hours with Diablo 2/LoD. But what about when you actually have friends at your home? The PC sucks in this situation. At my current home I have friends over all the time and we have never played a PC game, but we game on consoles each time someone comes over. At my previous place I had two roommates and we all had PCs. So we networked them and would play lots of Quake 2 and then UT when it launched. But we would still end up looking ridiculous as we yelled at each other from our respective bedrooms... but it was a lot of fun.

One day when I get around to building my own home I want to have a computer room with several PCs networked for playing PC games, but I also want a basement with a big screen HDTV, pool table, arcade cabinet, etc... for entertaining guests. And you want to know what gaming device is going to be down there other than any arcade cab I may have? Yeah, a console.

 

[kornphlake]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Why lug your PC to a friend's house to play when you can do it online? And if you like sprawling on the couch with a gamepad in front of your TV, get a ~$25 wireless gamepad and output your computer to your TV. Should be able to do that with no extras; most modern video cards have s-video out and come with the s-video cable and the s-video to RCA adapter you'd need if your TV only has RCA video in.

Then there's the 'you have to upgrade constantly' argument. Odd, then, that I was able to play Far Cry (and in 10x7 with all settings on very high, no less) on a rig I hadn't upgraded in two years (p4b 2.67, ti4600). The game could be played with "console settings" (ie. 640x480, low details) with a 3-4 year old machine easily, maybe something even older. You could find one used for about what a console would cost if not less.

Consoles are for people with ~20/40 vision who don't own a PC. Only other reasons are games that either don't come out for the PC at all or which do but months later... but I can do without a game if the maker is shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing it at all for the PC, and I can wait a few months for far, far better image quality if the maker is delaying the PC release. *shrug*

There's some thing about playing a video game in the same room as a friend that makes it more fun, at least for me. I'd rather play with a person I know who is sitting across the room from me, over playing with some annonymous person online or even with a friend a few blocks away.

Sure I could "rig" my PC to do what a game console does, and maybe make it do somethings that a console won't do, but in the end what I'd have is an overpiced over powered console with a few other bells and whistles. There's something to be said about the simplicity of a game console that only has a power cord and an AV cable coming out of it, compared to the difficulty of multiple connections, drivers, hardware, ISP... for those who like the challenge and really feel like they have to have the best quality to play a game (which in the end is only a game) then sure, go ahead and use a PC to do all your gaming. Just realize that it's not for everybody.

 

[Gannon]

Console gaming saves money... because you dont have to upgrade, you may have to live with lower quality graphics for a while, but even at those crappy resolutions game developers have more money to spend on quality art, cinematics, and gameplay then they would on most PC games. Not to mention you can rent games before you buy them, and buy used ones for dirt cheap. I now try to buy all my games used at renting stores, or from other used retailers. Unless I know there's a genre gap and I have to support one of my favorite genres, i.e. RPG's for the gamecube for instance. I went out and bought Tales of Symphonia to let them know there are people that appreciate having RPG's released for the GC.

Notice how many Genre's have completely died on the PC over the years, one of the best games ever made - Freespace 2, sold like utter crap. All PC game companies are releasing games in other genres either terribly slow or not at all, and when they do release stuff it's years old crappy ports, or it gets lukewarm reviews and/or sucks. The problem is with budgets and talented development teams and cost to produce games, a lot of the talent has gone over to the console market just to get enough money to finance their next game while still being able to pay that talent.

If they had continued to just release on PC, the problem is now because of the ubiquity of the internet. Newsgroups, peer-2-peer and torrents, and CD/DVD burners is just other words for saying "bootleg devices". I always hear game developers bitch and complain about pirating of course they should know by now that people that want to get it free *will get it free*. Bloody geniuses they are, not to mention all the mod chips and hacks constantly coming out for pirating console games as well.

I think the Xbox is probably one of the platforms that has the most pirated games next to the Playstation 2.

 

[mehmetmunur]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Exactly. Fraction of the functionality of a PC at the fraction of a price. Soon, the Xbox, and other game consoles, will not directly compete with a PC in games, but complement it.

In the future, I would love the capability to stream the shows I have recorded on a PC to an Xbox.

 

[imported_jediknight]

Originally posted by: kornphlake
How many 10 year olds go over to their friends house to play head to head on a computer? It's been a long time since I saw somebody pulling a wagon full of computer parts down the street to their friends house. On the other hand if you want to play a console game it's only a matter of carrying one disc, your friend already has the hardware to play two players. Argue what you may but for children (who are the primary video game demographic) playing multiplayer console games off line is easier, cheaper and more fun than trying to do so with a computer. Honestly how many of you have two mice, two keyboards, two joystick and a large enough monitor to comfortably view a split screen so that two kids can play together. Playing online really isn't the same as playing in the same room as your best friend.

LAN PARTY!!

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: mehmetmunur
Exactly. Fraction of the functionality of a PC at the fraction of a price. Soon, the Xbox, and other game consoles, will not directly compete with a PC in games, but complement it.

In the future, I would love the capability to stream the shows I have recorded on a PC to an Xbox.

I don't see how they complement a PC. Aside from playing games which aren't released for the PC, what can a console do that a PC can't? And why stream video to an xbox? You can output a PC to a TV easily. It's just a wasted $150 for the console, $50 per game, and whatever extra $$ you spend modding it.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Why lug your PC to a friend's house to play when you can do it online?

Because, like kornphlake said, playing games in the same room as your friends is a totally different experience than being isolated.

And if you like sprawling on the couch with a gamepad in front of your TV, get a ~$25 wireless gamepad and output your computer to your TV. Should be able to do that with no extras; most modern video cards have s-video out and come with the s-video cable and the s-video to RCA adapter you'd need if your TV only has RCA video in.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that you've never tried that... It's a PITA and the quality is horrible.

Consoles are for people with ~20/40 vision who don't own a PC.

You are so far off base. Consoles are for people who enjoy the games and the experiences that PC gaming cannot offer.

• Audio... Until Doom 3, there hasn't been a game on the PC that has the same immersive audio experience that most Xbox games have.
• Online play... Xbox Live is just about the perfect application. The ease of being able to find friends online, play in leagues (with full standings, stats, etc...), voice communication, etc... It's all head and shoulders above what the PC currently offers.
• And most importantly, the games... There are just too many games I'd be missing out on, if I were like you and chose the PC exclusively. I choose to enjoy gaming on both platforms.

 

[mehmetmunur]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: mehmetmunur
Exactly. Fraction of the functionality of a PC at the fraction of a price. Soon, the Xbox, and other game consoles, will not directly compete with a PC in games, but complement it.

In the future, I would love the capability to stream the shows I have recorded on a PC to an Xbox.

I don't see how they complement a PC. Aside from playing games which aren't released for the PC, what can a console do that a PC can't? And why stream video to an xbox? You can output a PC to a TV easily. It's just a wasted $150 for the console, $50 per game, and whatever extra $$ you spend modding it.

I am not saying and go out and buy yourself an XBox just for this purpose. I am saying that if you already have one, it will offer more than just gaming.

Obviously, a modern PC can do anything and everything an Xbox can, and better. However, it requires more money and hardware. And that is beauty of a $150 XBox.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Gurck
Why lug your PC to a friend's house to play when you can do it online?

Because, like kornphlake said, playing games in the same room as your friends is a totally different experience than being isolated.

And if you like sprawling on the couch with a gamepad in front of your TV, get a ~$25 wireless gamepad and output your computer to your TV. Should be able to do that with no extras; most modern video cards have s-video out and come with the s-video cable and the s-video to RCA adapter you'd need if your TV only has RCA video in.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that you've never tried that... It's a PITA and the quality is horrible.

Consoles are for people with ~20/40 vision who don't own a PC.

You are so far off base. Consoles are for people who enjoy the games and the experiences that PC gaming cannot offer.

• Audio... Until Doom 3, there hasn't been a game on the PC that has the same immersive audio experience that most Xbox games have.
• Online play... Xbox Live is just about the perfect application. The ease of being able to find friends online, play in leagues (with full standings, stats, etc...), voice communication, etc... It's all head and shoulders above what the PC currently offers.
• And most importantly, the games... There are just too many games I'd be missing out on, if I were like you and chose the PC exclusively. I choose to enjoy gaming on both platforms.

(in order)

You have a point about playing in the same room as friends. I'd think the USB standard would have no trouble with 2+ gamepads on a PC though, the way using serial ports did... Just haven't tried it.

See my sig, I have an htpc which I use for gaming as well.

PC games have utilized surround audio for years now, doom3 isn't the first by a long shot.

Leagues and such are a function of how many people use it. Doing what everyone else does isn't bad in and of itself... but if everyone else is wasting money on a subpar experience (this applies to other things as well, iPods and AOL for example) I won't even consider it. Multiplayer has never really been my thing anyway, too many 12 year olds who think "wut ur 2 y pwnt olololroflolol" is a sentence... I guess I'm much older than most computer users.

Same applies to games, although you'd miss out on a lot more exclusively using consoles (or especially only one console) than exclusively using a PC.

 

[Thraxen]

You have a point about playing in the same room as friends. I'd think the USB standard would have no trouble with 2+ gamepads on a PC though, the way using serial ports did... Just haven't tried it.

One key note here...most people do not have their PCs set up for use by more than one person at a time. My PC desk at home has one chair and is a corner desk so it's not an optimal shape for more than one user. But my consoles are connected to my HDTV with a large couch and two chairs in front and utilize the same surround sound system that I use for DVDs. If I asked my friends to crowd around my PC for a game of Madden they would just laugh ask, "Why aren't we using the XBox?". Not to mention the whole craptastic PC controller issue again.

I suppose if I decided to go the HTPC route things would look better for the PC end since I would already have the video and audio set up the way I want... but, yeah, still stuck with craptastic controllers. Plus I would never attempt to travel with the PC so I would have then lost my ability to game while on trips. Oh yeah, and I guess I'm out all the great console fighters that my friends and I like to play... plus games from dozens of other genres. Oh yeah, and the whole set-up would cost more.

Nah, I think I'll just maintain a single PC for the few enjoyable PC games that exist plus the usual PC activities and keep my consoles for local friends and genres that virtually don't exist on the PC

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Gurck
See my sig, I have an htpc which I use for gaming as well.

PC games have utilized surround audio for years now, doom3 isn't the first by a long shot.

Leagues and such are a function of how many people use it. Doing what everyone else does isn't bad in and of itself... but if everyone else is wasting money on a subpar experience (this applies to other things as well, iPods and AOL for example) I won't even consider it. Multiplayer has never really been my thing anyway, too many 12 year olds who think "wut ur 2 y pwnt olololroflolol" is a sentence... I guess I'm much older than most computer users.

Same applies to games, although you'd miss out on a lot more exclusively using consoles (or especially only one console) than exclusively using a PC.

(In order...)

• Maybe it's been a while... But I spent quite a bit of time trying to get my PC on my HDTV. After a while, I decided it was a PITA and certainly not worth the trouble. The quality just was never there.
  
  Yes, PC games have has surround audio... It's just not that good. The positional audio is not nearly as accurate or immersive. Doom 3 is the first game that I've played that rivals the Xbox on a decent home theater setup.
  
  I'm not sure what your saying about "subpar experience" in relation to Xbox Live. There is nothing subpar about a NFL2k5 league. Nothing. The ESPN gaming website is phenominal. The stat tracking, scheduling, etc is unrivaled.
  
  I love multiplayer. 90%+ of the time I play online with my Xbox, I play with people I know. Either from here, or friends in real life. Friends lists are something that Xbox Live offers better than any other platform. (Btw, I'm 36 and completely understand playing the immature crowd.)
  
  Exclusively using one over the other... I don't understand this concept at all, and that certainly isn't what I'm talking about. I own an Xbox, a PS2, and two very capable PC's (soon to be 3).
  
  I guess I don't understand why you don't really accept that many, many people love gaming on the consoles. It certainly doesn't make us inferior, as you seem to imply.

 

[JackBurton]

This is REALLY getting old. The problem with PC enthusiast forums is that 98% of the members ONLY like PC type games and are always trying to defend their precious PC. Well let me make this REALLY easy for the close minded PC folks. There are games that are best played on the PC, and there are games that are best played on a consoles.

Let's start off with FPS games:
PC => This is hands down the BEST platform to play these types of games. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Consoles => Halo is the best you are going to get. Although I thought it was a great game at the time (not as great as everyone made it out to be though), UT was MUCH more natural feeling on the PC with a keyboard mouse, and looked much better. Unreal Championship for the XBox sucked ass! There is just no comparison.

Fighting games:
PC => It's an alright platform for fighting with a good gamepad (use a keyboard and you'll get smoked), but WAY too crowded. You also aren't going to do any online fighting and if you do, the pings really suck! And ping is KING even moreso in fighting games.
Consoles => Man, this is the ONLY way to go. XBox Live! and MK Deceptions or my favorite Capcom vs SNK 2:EO, it is just like bringing back the old days of MK and Street Fighter in the arcades but with waaay more players. AWESOME, just AWESOME!

Sport games:
PC => It's alright, but you aren't gonna invite 8 friends over and play in front of your PC. Yeah, you can do it online, but it isn't the same.
Consoles => Perfect platform for sports. You can go online or play with friend you invite over. Great for talking smack (talking smack is much better in person )

RPG games:
PC => GREAT looking graphics. Keyboard and mouse are nice too.
Consoles => Doesn't look as good but still REALLY fun.
**I'm not big on these types of games, but the cool thing about some of these types of games is, PC guys can play console guys online, and it is a level playing field as the PC really has no big advantage here (it just looks better). I'm using Final Fantasy XI as an example.

Now I tried to cover the main types of games, but as you can see, the console has ALOT of key points. On top of that, you don't have to be a PC geek to run it optimally. All you need is $150 and games. Remember, 90% of the general public knows JACK SQUAT about PCs. The MAIN thing that sells consoles is, it just works. And WHATEVER game that comes out for that console, just works. Simplicity.



And this is coming from a guy that loves playing Doom 3 and Far Cry on his nice little 6800GT.

 

[Gurck]

I had no problem hooking my PC up to my HDTV, although I'd probably get better image quality with a card which has coaxial output.

Surround audio in older games is fine for me, maybe an audiophile would deem the xbox better in that department, I wouldn't. Far Cry, Warcraft 3, even something as old as Raven Shield all have imo good surround sound. Odd though that someone with very high standards for sound wouldn't mind 640x480 for video...

By subpar I meant image quality and resolution, not the league itself.

I'm not putting down people who own consoles, I just don't see the point unless you're a freak about a certain game and **must** play it. I consider myself a StarCraft freak, for instance - I still play. However I can deal with not purchasing & playing Starcraft: Ghost. Blizzard's own fault for not porting it to the PC, but hey, if they'd rather make less money, that's their perogative... I see it as a waste of money and space.

 

[Thraxen]

Gurk, one more thing. You are really wasting your time extolling the virtues of PC gaming to the crowd here. I'd say it's safe to say that most of us on this board that play consoles also play PC games. This is a PC tech forum afterall. We are all well aware of the advantages of PCs. But I love games in general and love to play on both PCs and consoles and am well aware of advantages of both. I'm sure the same applies to the other people posting in this thread. Now if you venture over to another forum, the IGN boards for example, I'm sure you could find plenty console gamers that don't get PC gaming. Your time might be better spent debating with them. But don't assume they are all that way. I've spent some time over there and have defended the PC in a number of debates in those forums.

I consider myself a StarCraft freak, for instance - I still play.

Wait! That can't be! Doesn't the lower image quality of an older game like prevent you from playing?

 

[TerryMathews]

Originally posted by: dwcal

Originally posted by: Mullzy
Of course... producing a 640*480 3D image with no AA and possibly no AF (not sure if they have AF for the xbox) isn't exactly mindblowing.

This is probably it. You don't need a whole lot of fill rate for a 640x480 image, and you get a kind of free AA running the output to a TV set because it's so much blurrier than a computer monitor. You save a lot of RAM by cutting out the Windows OS which is how it can get by with 64MB.

Three words: Layers of abstraction. A PC has at least three layers of abstraction from game to monitor that simply don't exist on the Xbox.
1) Game to Direct3d
2) Direct3d to graphics driver
3) Graphics driver to hardware

As I understand it, at compile times the graphics (and input and sound etc.) code is statically linked to all the libraries, such that you end up with direct machine code for the graphics processor in the binary.

Every layer of abstraction should consume at least one CPU clock cycle. So a graphics call that consumes n clock cycles on an Xbox would consume n+3 cycles on a PC.

Anyone who knows more that I do, feel free to correct me but we discussed this in my ASM class and this is how the professor explained it.

 

[kornphlake]

primary demographic for video games is generally children, IE persons younger than 16. In the country where I live most youngsters don't have steady income and rely on their parents to not only give them money to purchase games and their appropriate hardware but also rely on thier parents to drive them to vendors where said hardware and software may be purchased, either that or they get a beating when they steal the credit card and order online. If dad or mom is already a gamer or heavily into computers then the choice is simple, play computer games. I'll be the first to agree that computers are much more versatile and can be a tool as well as a toy for both children and adults. However if mom and dad don't buy the line of BS given in Dell commercials, or if they do as the case may be, Jr ends up with a computer that doesn't even keep up with a console for gaming and the folks won't understand what it really takes to make a computer work well for anything but websurfing, they likely won't understand spending money on a DVD-ROM that will only work on the computer when they could purchase a DVD player for the TV for the same price. They won't want to pay through the nose for the latest HDTV and surround sound just so Jr can sit and play games, if they do it's because dad likes to get his porno the old fashioned way, from the video store.

Really the tech savvy tend to be tech savvy not only about computers but also concerning things like cell phones, home theater systems, car audio... for the rest of the population set top DVD players, $200 flat tube televisions from walmart, internet on an un-modded brand name computer and a game console seem like enough. Since many children like playing games but their parents are not all tech savvy they get consoles, which is where the game market is really shining. Go to any software retailer, say best buy, and look at the games available for the PC, you'll find dozens of titles, many of which are over a year old, compare that to the heap of titles availabe for one of the consoles, all of which have been released in the last year. If game makers have to compromise the control comfort or graphic quality to bring their product to the most people then they will obviously do it.

 

[sfmedic]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
Like 0roo0roo said...It's about the games.

Some games are better on the PC (i.e. FPS, RTS, etc...) and some are better on consoles (i.e. Fighting, Sports, Platform, etc...)

Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. Why does it always have to be one vs the other for many of you guys?


sfmedic... Open your mind, pony up the $150, and get an Xbox. There are A LOT of excellent games for it. And if you have a decent home theater setup, it's even better!

Hey who said I am closed minded about consoles. I just wanted to set a discussion in motion which had a lot of information to be learned. It's great to get all of the tips and opinions from all of the experience that you find on this forum.

And Wingznut I plan to pony up the 150 it takes to enter into the newer generation of console gaming.

If everyone wants to know why this topic came up, my wife asked me if Costco had the best deal on Xbox or if I wanted to do some research and find the best price. Well it led to more than just searching for price as you can all see.

THANKS ALL for the responses to such a simple question.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: sfmedic

Originally posted by: Wingznut
Like 0roo0roo said...It's about the games.

Some games are better on the PC (i.e. FPS, RTS, etc...) and some are better on consoles (i.e. Fighting, Sports, Platform, etc...)

Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. Why does it always have to be one vs the other for many of you guys?


sfmedic... Open your mind, pony up the $150, and get an Xbox. There are A LOT of excellent games for it. And if you have a decent home theater setup, it's even better!

Hey who said I am closed minded about consoles.

Ummmm.... Nobody?

The Costco deal depends entirely on what games they are offering with it... Which ones are those, nowadays?

 

[luciddreams]

"a lot of titles are pc only ..... aka doom 3, half life 2 ...... etc ....... "

Ah, yes, for now. And all FPS's! For a FPS I INSIST that I buy the PC version; however, what about all of the excellent non-fps games?

 

[0roo0roo]

well consoles are fun when friends come over. with pc you either huddle around one to watch another play... or lug pc's around.

 

[SickBeast]

The PC will be the best gaming platform until Xbox2 comes out, and even that's a stretch. The PS3 will hopefully really revolutionize things. I remember when the PS1 and PS2 came out respetively, no mainstream personal computer at the time could match their graphical goodness.

Out of curiousity, will the PS3 upconvert PS2 games to hi-def resolution? I know it's going to be backward compatible.

 

[fuzzynavel]

If you want to see what ancient technology(in PC terms at least) can do then have a look at gran turismo 4 screenies on the PS2.....

I am a PC and XBOX lover but gran turismo was my altime favourite game a few years back before I got my hands on my XBOX..(Still love pgr2 on live..) but this game does look quite good even with 5-6 year old technology!!!

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: fuzzynavel
If you want to see what ancient technology(in PC terms at least) can do then have a look at gran turismo 4 screenies on the PS2.....

I am a PC and XBOX lover but gran turismo was my altime favourite game a few years back before I got my hands on my XBOX..(Still love pgr2 on live..) but this game does look quite good even with 5-6 year old technology!!!

Unfortunately, they have dropped online play completely, to avoid more delays.

This news is the biggest disappointment of the year, imho.