Xeon64 or Opteron

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bobbyk

Member
Jun 24, 2004
52
0
0
The point about dell is valid. I didn't think of it that way. In truth intel kinda has to do what dell says. If dell wasn't intel only amd would have a huge boost. Dell sells millions of pc's with intel cpu's in them. They also serve as the drop box fo rp4's that don't work right but still run as a celeron. If intel suddenly looses that, it is a huge hit. It might even be a major drop in market share.
 

Nemesis2038

Member
May 26, 2004
89
0
0
Nice points everyone especially Cerb.

Thanks everyone for correcting me on SMT's existance.

YES I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT K9 more importantly its release date. I wonder how the power will do in referece to a DUAL core K8.

I too am leaning a bit toward AMD these days proably because my recent Athlon 64 3500 is doing so darn well but I wish I had some real 64 bit software. I have better chances of finding oil in my back yar and I probably should have waited until MS64 is offically released. Having access to Beta software was incentive but I really should have showed some control.

That ULEAD test is for 720x480 files. I am working with HDTV files. TS& WMV9 files mainly.

Try some of these video files and see for yourself how incredible this level of video is.
http://www.wmvhd.com/

Minimal Configuration
(Play 720p video)
Microsoft Windows XP
Windows Media Player 9 Series
2.4 GHz processor
384 MB of RAM
64 MB video card
1024 x 768 screen resolution
16-bit sound card
Speakers

Optimum Configuration
(Play 1080p video with 5.1 surround sound)
Microsoft Windows XP
Windows Media Player 9 Series
DirectX 9.0
3.0 GHz processor
512 MB of RAM
128 MB video card
1920 x 1440 screen resolution
24-bit 96 kHz multichannel sound card
5.1 surround speaker system

Now imagine converting 2 hours of 1080i to 720P and how much CPU power it uses.

I need Scotty "Im Givin it all she gots captain"

Good Info keep it coming.
 
Oct 18, 2003
12,590
0
0
ivanandreevich.deviantart.com
Nemesis2038
Release date is shady. In short, it seems the number of pretty much all execution units has been doubled. I've heard that after looking @ K9, people called K8 a Willamette. Of course, this will use HT2 which would totally illiminate pretty much any problems that might exist with slow interconnects. In any case, the saying goes 1.0 GHz K9 = 2.0 Ghz K8. Now if that's true, I wanna see what Intel got up it's sleeve.
I need Scotty "Im Givin it all she gots captain"
You need a Opteron 250 x 2, if this is SMP-aware.
 

Nemesis2038

Member
May 26, 2004
89
0
0
WOW. If thats true I cant fathom the performance a K9 dual core would do. Also that would put my Theory on Itanium being a threat is 5 years to shame. I take it Intel is aware of this and I wonder what they will do to try to reclaim the crown.

Where can I find more on K9?

I would also like to hear if anyone has the scoop on Intel and what they plan on doing to make a comeback or if they plan on being beaten this year and planning a comeback in 2005.

The only way we really win is if Intel has a competing product that can drive them in price cometition.

I can afford the Top of the line but I usually buy 2 speed steps down and overclock it past the top.
 

Nemesis2038

Member
May 26, 2004
89
0
0
I asked if the codec is SMP but it being friday I dont expect a reply. Also I cant afford a dually right now. The system isnt even a month old. The wife would kill me.

But that doesnt stop me from trying to get a DL585 for testing at work. He He He.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Nemesis2038
WOW. If thats true I cant fathom the performance a K9 dual core would do. Also that would put my Theory on Itanium being a threat is 5 years to shame. I take it Intel is aware of this and I wonder what they will do to try to reclaim the crown.
Ruiz himself said that the K9 would be dual-core. As in implying that a single-core version was not on the table.
Where can I find more on K9?
Dunno, but my curiosity is piqued. I might do some googling once I finish this paper I'm on.
I would also like to hear if anyone has the scoop on Intel and what they plan on doing to make a comeback or if they plan on being beaten this year and planning a comeback in 2005.
They'll have something...but they are bound to be tight-lipped. Keep AMD and IBM guessing.
The only way we really win is if Intel has a competing product that can drive them in price cometition.

I can afford the Top of the line but I usually buy 2 speed steps down and overclock it past the top.
 

ZobarStyl

Senior member
Mar 3, 2004
657
0
0
Lol nemesis you expect big things from intel because "look what they did with Celeron D"? Finally sticking enough cache on your low-end processors to make them compete decently with competitor chips that are still cheaper is NOT something that makes me think that intel can pull off a 64 coup this late in the game. A64/Opteron is such a huge hit for AMD because you get great performance on both 32 and 64 bit systems, whereas even if Xeons get a 64 bit upgrade they're still bottlenecked by the system bus. Although I don't Goliath can be felled in a single round, if ever, this is still a scary time to be Intel:
Itanium is failing under pressure from x86-64
The server level Intel chip can't compete with Opteron past 2x no matter how fast you scale due to the memory bottleneck.
Their desktop chips only have one thing left that they do consistently better than AMD chips (media encoding), and that's the first and most obvious thing that's going to get a huge boost in AMD's dual chips.
Prescott is going to a challenge (if not impossible) to dual core since it's already the hottest processor on the market.
On the same note: Prescott won't show it's strength until it's at speeds that will likely demand watercooling at stock speeds.

If Intel doesn't shape up its game and release something revolutionary (and a 64-bit nocona is NOT it) they are going to get relegated to being the mobile market leaders and Dell suppliers and nothing much more...but of course, you can't kill the giant, and he won't be humbled like that for a least a decade to come.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis2038
Nice points everyone especially Cerb.

Thanks everyone for correcting me on SMT's existance.

YES I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT K9 more importantly its release date. I wonder how the power will do in referece to a DUAL core K8.

I too am leaning a bit toward AMD these days proably because my recent Athlon 64 3500 is doing so darn well but I wish I had some real 64 bit software. I have better chances of finding oil in my back yar and I probably should have waited until MS64 is offically released. Having access to Beta software was incentive but I really should have showed some control.

That ULEAD test is for 720x480 files. I am working with HDTV files. TS& WMV9 files mainly.

Try some of these video files and see for yourself how incredible this level of video is.
http://www.wmvhd.com/

Minimal Configuration
(Play 720p video)
Microsoft Windows XP
Windows Media Player 9 Series
2.4 GHz processor
384 MB of RAM
64 MB video card
1024 x 768 screen resolution
16-bit sound card
Speakers

Optimum Configuration
(Play 1080p video with 5.1 surround sound)
Microsoft Windows XP
Windows Media Player 9 Series
DirectX 9.0
3.0 GHz processor
512 MB of RAM
128 MB video card
1920 x 1440 screen resolution
24-bit 96 kHz multichannel sound card
5.1 surround speaker system

Now imagine converting 2 hours of 1080i to 720P and how much CPU power it uses.

I need Scotty "Im Givin it all she gots captain"

Good Info keep it coming.

Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD all have AMD64 ports now. If it hasn't already been released, Solaris should have one out there one of these days.
 

sonoran

Member
May 9, 2002
174
0
0
Originally posted by: LoganTeamX
I don't know about this Nemesis guy. I heard about all this FUD from Ard over at forums.amd.com and I figured "hey, why don't I go give them some numbers?"

I did a couple of interesting benchmarks involving encoding. The results are a little... disturbing.

http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=17088&hl=ulead
Very impressive - you benchmarked an overclocked Barton vs a P4 at stock speed (a year old speed grade at that). How stupid do you think people are over here?
 

RockGuitarDude

Senior member
Apr 15, 2004
695
0
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis2038
In short I dont think Intel would announce a 64 bit cpu unless it rocked. Coming out the gates slower than AMD's Opteron would make Intel look bad. I expect more from intel first x86 64 bit cpu. Surely because I am so far dissapointed with Prescott. Maybe the Dothan team needs to give the Precott team a lesson in CPU design. Just my thoughts.

Well, I kind of disagree... It doesn't have to rock. The major market is businesses and they'll buy it for the brand recognition regardless of actual performance.
 

RockGuitarDude

Senior member
Apr 15, 2004
695
0
0
Regardless of who you are a fan of, it is interesting to see AMD produce what they do with a company thats literally 10 times thier size as their main competitor.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
"Very impressive - you benchmarked an overclocked Barton vs a P4 at stock speed (a year old speed grade at that). How stupid do you think people are over here? "

maybe the price performance ratio makes the barton the better deal @ 2/2Ghz then a p4C @ 2.2
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: clarkey01
"Very impressive - you benchmarked an overclocked Barton vs a P4 at stock speed (a year old speed grade at that). How stupid do you think people are over here? "

maybe the price performance ratio makes the barton the better deal @ 2/2Ghz then a p4C @ 2.2

But what about the P4C @ 3.3 or so?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: clarkey01
barton still costs less
Yes, but if one is stock, the other should be, and if one is OC'd, the other should be OC'd by a similar %. The Barton may have the value, but that was just bad benchmarking.
 

txxxx

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2003
1,700
0
0
LOL it appears the OP knows little about CPU design!

"I dont consider branch prediction a feature but basic chip enhancement." Its a bloody necessity to keep those pipelines at full capacity!

And as for integrating video encoding processes into the CPU - have you seen how many revision of Divx/Xvid comes out? Newsflash, MPEG1/2 has more coverage, and current budget end cpu's can handle Divx/XVIDs fine.

I suggest the OP stops reading whatever's on the net and actually thinks about the next crappy post they place.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
"But what about the P4C @ 3.3 or so"

a barton @ 2.8 Ghz to a 3.3 P4C.

Think its safe to say the barton wins most benchies there

i Dont know how high up a 2.4C can go, so 3.3 sounds about rite.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: clarkey01
its bs, its just a bad copy of the k8 x86 extensions and what do you mean " and AMD not innovating enough " ,what the hell is hypertransport ? on die memory controller ? the whole idea of 64 bit extensions ?

opterons up from 2 way SMOKE xeon's, and the price/performance ratio is MORE then enough to make the jump to AMD.

Take it easy there Sparky...
 

Vee

Senior member
Jun 18, 2004
689
0
0
Originally posted by: IvanAndreevich
Nemesis2038
Release date is shady. In short, it seems the number of pretty much all execution units has been doubled. I've heard that after looking @ K9, people called K8 a Willamette. Of course, this will use HT2 which would totally illiminate pretty much any problems that might exist with slow interconnects. In any case, the saying goes 1.0 GHz K9 = 2.0 Ghz K8. Now if that's true, I wanna see what Intel got up it's sleeve.
Don't you worry about Intel. AMD will need their K9. Intel is in some disarray now, so many plans changed, but they are focusing hard on the new 64-bit successor to the Pentium4. The people (marketing!) responsible for the Itanium/Willamette/Prescott/Tejas mess aren't calling the shots anymore. This is going to be a good cpu.

And release dates are looking at early 2006 for both (possibly - yeah right - late 2005 for Intel). AMD will also launch a dualcore K8 AthlonFX/Athlon64 (Toledo) late 2005. Following up on the dual core Opterons (Egypt, Italy, Denmark)

Unless there is a mixup about designations and actual core technologies, I don't think AMD's first dual core cpu is the K9. I also don't think the "K9" will initially need to be launched as dual core.
What improvements are AMD considering for the dual core K8? Palladium, threading and SSE3? Such improved chip could be the "K9". In that case I guess I'm talking about the "K10".
(Work has started on something called "K10" BTW)

Question here: Is the dual core K8 the K9? I don't think it is.
There are a number of rumoured differences between the K8 and K9:
K9 has frequently been linked with .065 micron process, though said to debut on .090, while dual core K8s are intended to have considerable presence on .090 micron.

K9 is also said to be designed for "multi core" cpus, while the K8 core only supports "dual core" cpus.

K9's pipes are said to contain 15 stages, K8 has 12 stage pipes.

K9's vector and FP superscalarity is said to be increased.

K9 is said to feature 'Hyper Transport 2', and may directly provide links for 16-way systems.

The market name "Opteron2" exists, and I have not yet seen it in use for dual core K8 Opterons.

K9 is a 'speculative result' 'Out of Order execution' superscalar chip, same technology AMD have already explored in the K7 and K8. Improvements seem to follow a pattern similar to K8 from K7.
Slightly deeper pipes for increased clockrate. But that is also again more than fully covered by extensive improvements in sheduling window, speculation and branchprediction. On the contrary, AMD seem to again go for less hiccups and more smoothly flowing program execution. This is logical. AMD continues along a path they should know well, and where they still see large opportunities for improvements.
K9 also increases superscalarity again. But while K8 saw such increase on integer (K7 already having massive FP performance), K9 will do it for FP and vector operations, this time.

It's likely that K9 will also handle threading inside the core. This is not entirely certain, since the thing mentioned has been "chip level multi threading", and obviously, the dual core K8 will feature that as well. But threading in the core could make it possible to shedule more instructions and get better SMT performance from each core. Of course, AMD's sheduling window could be so large that that wouldn't be true. In that case, such technology would be useless in a dual/multicore CPU. If AMD does not intend to release any single core K9, that could very well be the case.

Intel's candidate is dual core by launch, but fundamentally scalable multi core. Intel are 'gambling' (well, - not really) on that software will have evolved even further to take advantage of SMT. Basis is said to be the Centrino. But it is also said Intel will go busting their veins on this one. Lot's of clever technology they have come up with over the years, but ignored in favor of GHz, is going into this one.

Since the last leg of the P4 - Tejas - has ben cancelled, as has the intended P4 successor - Nehalem - there is some likelyhood that we are talking about the true "Pentium 5" here. While the K9 will debut as an expensive Opteron2, it looks like there is some chance the *P5* will debut as a desktop cpu.

Otherwise, my guess is that we are going to see some convergence in CPU technologies from Intel and AMD. Now that Intel are abandoning deep pipelining and AMD have picked up chip threading. That will be good for benchmarking, which currently is like totally architecture dependent. SYSMark03 and PCMark03 are custom tailored around the P4B. SYSMark04 and PCMark04 are custom tailored around P4E/P4C, etc ad nauseum. (Veritest Winstone03 suit seem pretty OK though. Seems more relevant than Winstone04, which contains too many both AMD and Intel new optimizations to correlate well to normal currently useful performance. But it all depends on what you feel a benchmark should show, of course. And I better stop here before this turns into a benchmark thread.)
 

bobbyk

Member
Jun 24, 2004
52
0
0
Vee how did you find out so much about the K9. I should mention that i do not think the project is taped out yet so nothing will be set in stone. My guess would be that amd will wait for a while and see how improvements affect the athlon 64 and then integrate those features into their new cpu. Intel tried to start over with Tejas and it claimed in the beginning that heat dissipation wouldn't be a problem and it killed them anyway.

Another point is that hyperthreading type things don't work as well for amd because of the differences in the cpu. For the intel chips it keeps the pipeline moving constantly. If one instruction stalls it moves on to a different one until the first one is ready to be executed. Amd chips don't have that problem because the pipeline is much shorter and the scheduler works different.

Amd is already doing SSE3 on the next core revision i believe.

Intel is also more than in dissarray. They really need to pull something off. THe problem with their chips is that they don't scale as well with clock speed because of the front side bus bottleneck. When intel get the 1066 amd will be doing 2.6 chips. Which means an effective 2.6Ghz fsb. INtel will have the advantage with ddr2-533 in theoretical performance but i do not think that it will show any real performance benefit until at least the second generation of the technology. They need to massively improve timings, etc, before ddr-2 becomes viable. Then when it does at about ddr2-667 amd will be there with the new core that supports it. Then the problem for intel is that the amd cpu can take near full advantage of that bandwidth and it will post huge numbers. Basically, intel probably needs to do integrated memory controller or increase the fsb to the 667 speed now (which would be 333 Quad pumped to 1332 or something close)
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
maybe this will be the first time AMD might really pull ahead for a little while, if only they could get more oems and dell. It be great to see both sides even, we'd never seen AMD with 50% market share and billions in cash flow, it be great to see what they could do with that kind of money floating about like @ Intel.
 
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