Xi Backs Down on Taiwan?

[sdifox]

Tell you what, allow me to cut to a point more worthy of your consideration, in the interest of saving time.

Regardless of America's past foul and regrettable transgressions, and the contrition showed later, it doesn't excuse the CCP's current day litany of human rights abuses. Do you agree?

Of course. All I am saying is apology means shit. The harm is done and is never going to be undone. All you can do is to try to not repeat it.

 

[akugami]

I'm confused. In 1945, ROC was an ally of the U.S. Even ignoring political ideology, the U.S. isn't going to recognize a rebellion against any ally.

If you're saying the U.S. could've recognized the PRC earlier than 1971 (but after 1949), who knows how that changes history. The main pivot point for China is arguably 1989, when they reaffirmed one-party rule with an iron fist. In the past two decades, their economy is largely market-based capitalism (with a heavy dose of state influence).

What Roosevelt or Truman didn't do in the mid 1940s didn't set the stage for today's CCP. China went through a lot of self-inflicted craziness under Mao and didn't begin to dig out until after he died.

I'm no historian, so most likely I have some of my details mixed up, but Mao Zedong did send a request for a meeting with Roosevelt in 1945. Mao received no reply. And under Truman, the US would recognize the ROC rather than the PRC. I'm not critical of the US's decision, since I'm not knowledgeable enough about history to say what was the best solution. I will give the US the benefit of the doubt that they did what they felt was best for the nation. Hindsight does say a better relationship with Mao probably could have tempered the PRC and communist China. It's all water under the bridge at this time.

Regardless, I think understanding the reason why another person/nation/entity thinks and acts the way they do is helpful for your own success.

As Sun Tzu once wrote, “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

 

[kage69]

Of course. All I am saying is apolgy means shit. The harm is done and is never going to be undone. Allyou can do ia to try to not repeat it.

Good to hear, but you should probably check out the last idk 30+ years of Japanese and Korean relations if you think apologies don't matter.

The Korean experience in WWII proves you wrong on the money side too actually, with the current day settlements (and sought after apologies) from Japan for comfort women and pressing Korean men into service to help fight and supply the war.

Are you saying all those hundreds of thousands of Koreans didn't have any claim to anything? That they should have just stfu, just be happy Japan has changed? America came to terms with it's treatment of Japanese Americans, who actively campaigned for both an apology and reparations. Got both in 1988. It didn't mean shit - it meant $20k per person, over $50k in today's dollars.

No one is suggesting time travel fox, but your opinion on the value of reconciliation is demonstrably false is what I'm saying. Korea was ready to drop out of a crucial intel agreement because Japan wouldn't issue an apology at one point. These things matter, I promise you. See multiple debacles over Yasukuni shrine visits for more examples.

 

[Jaskalas]

Regardless, I think understanding the reason why another person/nation/entity thinks and acts the way they do is helpful for your own success.

Humans generally believe in, endorse, and engage in acts of genocide and slavery.
China truly believes the people of Taiwan belong to them.

That we, through our institutions, try to believe in, adopt, and defend the concept of human rights... places us directly at odds with human nature. And all nations not subscribed to our notion of human rights will default to regular human behavior. Placing us not just at odds with, but on a war footing on competing ideas. One side thinks human lives should mean something. The other.... uses waves of humans as meat for an offensive to take another's land.

If there wasn't an ocean, China would have settled this decades ago using the same method, to achieve the same results. Different people, same story again and again.

Now that the US is in decline, our navy will no longer oppose China's ambition to kill others. It is inevitable that some day this WILL occur. And like with Russia, much of the world will collectively yawn and say "but China does good business".

 

[akugami]

I've posted to this effect before. I believe there is some validity to the PRC's claims that Taiwan belongs to China. I know some rabid anti-China folks will scoff at such an opinion, but there is some validity to this claim.

Where things get murky is...which is the real China? Even if you can argue the true successor to imperial China is the PRC, does it even matter anymore? Is it even best for the world at large for Taiwan to reunify? I'd say no.

There are definitely a lot of corrupt officials in China. I have personally seen customs agents in several Asian countries hint at giving bribes to grease the wheels to get you through customs faster. I have never personally given a single cent of my own hard earned money in these situations since I have nothing to hide. But I can say that I would have gotten through customs faster had I greased the wheels. And I have heard stories of corrupt local officials in China. Lest some think that we in the US are free of corruption, it happens here as well.

It's sad because human nature basically means, we can't have nice things. I wish it were otherwise, but that's probably the way it'll be until the end of times. Humans are selfish. I'm not going to be hypocritical and say I've never made decisions that benefited me. What I can say is, to the best of my knowledge, I've never made decisions that knowingly benefited me to the detriment of others. And I'm talking about making a morally corrupt decision to benefit myself that harmed others.

 

[sdifox]

Good to hear, but you should probably check out the last idk 30+ years of Japanese and Korean relations if you think apologies don't matter.

The Korean experience in WWII proves you wrong on the money side too actually, with the current day settlements (and sought after apologies) from Japan for comfort women and pressing Korean men into service to help fight and supply the war.

Are you saying all those hundreds of thousands of Koreans didn't have any claim to anything? That they should have just stfu, just be happy Japan has changed? America came to terms with it's treatment of Japanese Americans, who actively campaigned for both an apology and reparations. Got both in 1988. It didn't mean shit - it meant $20k per person, over $50k in today's dollars.

No one is suggesting time travel fox, but your opinion on the value of reconciliation is demonstrably false is what I'm saying. Korea was ready to drop out of a crucial intel agreement because Japan wouldn't issue an apology at one point. These things matter, I promise you. See multiple debacles over Yasukuni shrine visits for more examples.

Reparations lessen the impact, does not change history. Yasukuni will forever be a divisive issue and I don't think Japan will ever contemplate changing that. The much deserved hatred Koreans have for the Japanese is not going to go away just because Japan gave a insincere apology.

People in old coutries have long memories.

 

[sdifox]

They should have. I think the world would have been a better place without communist China.

With that said, I'm not arguing with the ROC or PRC was first, but rather that the US could have recognized the PRC earlier when Mao Ze Dong reached out to Roosevelt in 1945. Now, we won't ever know what would truly happen if that came to pass, but I'd like to believe that with a friendly nation to temper the worst of the PRC's tendencies, maybe we'd have a more light handed PRC instead of today's iron fisted PRC.

Yeah no, we saw the loosening restrictions up until Tienanmen and well, that ended the discussion. There is no tempering the CCP if it feels a hint of a threat to its control of China.

 

[Perknose]

I've posted to this effect before. I believe there is some validity to the PRC's claims that Taiwan belongs to China. I know some rabid anti-China folks will scoff at such an opinion, but there is some validity to this claim.

Where things get murky is...which is the real China? Even if you can argue the true successor to imperial China is the PRC, does it even matter anymore? Is it even best for the world at large for Taiwan to reunify? I'd say no.

^^^ Exactly this.