Xi Backs Down on Taiwan?

[cytg111]

There is no free speech or free judiciary in China. A pretty big difference off the bat when it comes to political freedom and nationalism. China's sole political party controls it's own military, one currently on an expansionist agenda towards multiple countries at the same time. There is simply no analog to the political situation in China here in the States. The country is run by a single guy with an iron fist who does not care about other people's ideas, he's not even a fan of actual history so the entire country has to 'learn' his special version of Chinese and world history. State media there is consolidated, it doesn't have separate special interests and doesn't argue with itself like the right wing echo chamber does here in the States.

Look at the police state and social credit score bullshit. Nationalism is a problem in many places, but thankfully there are many areas in which the US isn't even a weak analog for it. China ranks second only to North Korea on that scale I'm afraid. The US has it's problems, but you don't see us setting up re education and forced labor camps for an entire ethnic group, right?

Strait up Nazi shit, even down to making movies about this and trying to sell the narrative these folks are better here than at home; they're having fun, acquiring new skills blah blah blah. In reality these people are tortured if they don't speak Mandarin, work, or comply with the CCPs social engineering efforts. Lots of torture. Widespread sterilization of women. MSS agents put in civilian houses to replace imprisoned fathers.

It's no contest.

Hehe .. I get it. I do not dispute that. You think I wanna be over there? And be put under arrest by the speech police for speaking my mind?

That was not my point.

As different as the two countries be on all those points, both operating bodies relies on blasting disinformation into citizens faces in order to survive.
And in terms of America it is also by design. I think this board calls it late stage capitalism. Das Kapital feedback loop into the electoral to produce even greater Kapital to create even greater Fox OANN propaganda efforts, repeat repeat repeat. Citizen United was the death blow.

 

[kage69]

Hehe .. I get it. I do not dispute that. You think I wanna be over there? And be put under arrest by the speech police for speaking my mind?

That was not my point.

As different as the two countries be on all those points, both operating bodies relies on blasting disinformation into citizens faces in order to survive.
And in terms of America it is also by design. I think this board calls it late stage capitalism. Das Kapital feedback loop into the electoral to produce even greater Kapital to create even greater Fox OANN propaganda efforts, repeat repeat repeat. Citizen United was the death blow.

I forgot to add, I do consider the likes of Fox, OANN, etc "state media" when repug admins are in the White House. The cooperation between Newscorp ownership/talking heads and repug leadership has been a thing since the earlier 2000s. In 2016, with the assistance of a narcissistic mentally ill Russian asset, that relationship became a full fledged feed back loop, run entirely on anilingus and lies. It's almost impressive, really.

 

[akugami]

@Ajay A lot of what kage69 touched upon created modern day China. The main impetus for the creation of modern day China, which to me is communist China, has been the repeated defeats at the hands of other countries. The collective "loss of face" is what drives the CCP.

Imperial China literally had two wars where European countries fought to continue to sell opium to them, and the occupation by Japan and the atrocities committed by Japan on the Chinese populace. There's a whole bunch of other relatively "minor" skirmishes. I think just as importantly, the US played a role in taking advantage of China during the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion.

I also think that, the US lost a great opportunity to influence and temper communist China, when it was first created. Instead of recognizing the People's Republic of China (PRC, mainland China), it instead recognized the Republic of China (Taiwan).

I think it's important to recognize where the antagonistic nature of China came from, to understand their actions. I also think it's important to keep in mind that the general populace has exactly zero say in shaping Chinese politics.

And it's scary how similar The GOP with Fox News, OAN, etc. and the PRC and their state news media outlets.

 

[Moonbeam]

You don't have to guess in this case. The problem is Chinese nationalism.

Taiwan sees what the CCP has done to Tibet, Xinjiang and Hong Kong. It's not about appearing superior, it's about self-determination and being left the hell alone, ultimately not having to live a lower standard of living under an oppressive authoritarian regime - which would only happen after the executions and 're education camps' phase.

That's the hideous issue that overrides all other interesting problems for Taipei.

What is nationalism but self identification with a nation and for reasons that confer a sense of pride? You are just telling me about the hideous nature that nationalistic pride can take not why the phenomenon exists.

@Ajay A lot of what kage69 touched upon created modern day China. The main impetus for the creation of modern day China, which to me is communist China, has been the repeated defeats at the hands of other countries. The collective "loss of face" is what drives the CCP.

Imperial China literally had two wars where European countries fought to continue to sell opium to them, and the occupation by Japan and the atrocities committed by Japan on the Chinese populace. There's a whole bunch of other relatively "minor" skirmishes. I think just as importantly, the US played a role in taking advantage of China during the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion.

I also think that, the US lost a great opportunity to influence and temper communist China, when it was first created. Instead of recognizing the People's Republic of China (PRC, mainland China), it instead recognized the Republic of China (Taiwan).

I think it's important to recognize where the antagonistic nature of China came from, to understand their actions. I also think it's important to keep in mind that the general populace has exactly zero say in shaping Chinese politics.

And it's scary how similar The GOP with Fox News, OAN, etc. and the PRC and their state news media outlets.

What is this business you call loosing face? It wouldn't be that people put their self identification, their pride, is something they wish to defend that by it's very nature is ridiculous and defensible only by force, would it?

============

Look deep and look within. The source of what we call evil, nationalistic and otherwise, is the need to self identify with anything that offers respect, and why, because that need is the result of being humiliated for being your real self and being made to conform or else.

 

[Ajay]

I disagree, with regret. This goes back a lot farther than 2001. China got carved up in the 19th century, bad, was held down by a variety of boots, European and American. We kept them stoned and divided, played factions against each other. Personally I think when you go through something like the horror of Nanking it's impossible for views on foreigners not to worsen. Some of the affronts to China weren't losses of life, but rather of face. Our Navy seized one of their ships suspected of transporting chemicals to Ghaddafi, back in the 90s. We ended up letting it go, but the delay and how the Navy acted was seen as a huge insult. Then there what was called the Third Strait Crisis, when Clinton sent a carrier group to Taiwan to shut down a largescale intimidation effort by the Chinese. That one in particular made the old school PLA brass really go berserk. They still cite it as one of the reasons they need "a military that can win wars." Many of them have advocated giving the US "a bloody nose" since then.

Modern China is the product of many things: war, subjugation, cultural unity, the lasting influence of Confucianism, starvation, authoritarianism, and the writings of political theorist/proud Nazi Carl Schmitt. A whole other thread in other words.

We can go back 100-200 years or more tracing the history of all sort of influences on counties. Not that that is bad in and in of itself - I'm sure the Chinese have some intrinsic fear of foreign power. But, modern China is mainly a product of its communist revolution. It was a radical shift. So, I disagree - but I think we are talking about two different things, in a sense.

 

[Ajay]

I also think that, the US lost a great opportunity to influence and temper communist China, when it was first created. Instead of recognizing the People's Republic of China (PRC, mainland China), it instead recognized the Republic of China (Taiwan).

Well, given our fear of the spread of communism, the antithesis of democracy, our leadership wasn't inclined to support the Maoist government at all. It's a tough counterfactual to gauge the effect recognizing communist China on relations today.

 

[sdifox]

@Ajay A lot of what kage69 touched upon created modern day China. The main impetus for the creation of modern day China, which to me is communist China, has been the repeated defeats at the hands of other countries. The collective "loss of face" is what drives the CCP.

Imperial China literally had two wars where European countries fought to continue to sell opium to them, and the occupation by Japan and the atrocities committed by Japan on the Chinese populace. There's a whole bunch of other relatively "minor" skirmishes. I think just as importantly, the US played a role in taking advantage of China during the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion.

I also think that, the US lost a great opportunity to influence and temper communist China, when it was first created. Instead of recognizing the People's Republic of China (PRC, mainland China), it instead recognized the Republic of China (Taiwan).

I think it's important to recognize where the antagonistic nature of China came from, to understand their actions. I also think it's important to keep in mind that the general populace has exactly zero say in shaping Chinese politics.

And it's scary how similar The GOP with Fox News, OAN, etc. and the PRC and their state news media outlets.

ROC predates PRC. Chang Kai Shek had a chance to wipe out the commmies (last commie stronghold was in Xi-An) but was stopped by Churchill and Roosevelt cuz they didn't want to upset Stalin.

 

[Ajay]

ROC predates PRC. Chang Kai Shek had a chance to wipe out the commmies (last commie stronghold was in Xi-An) but was stopped by Churchill and Roosevelt cuz they didn't want to upset Stalin.

Great. I'll be reading up on post-WWII chinese history now. Thanks ;-)

 

[sdifox]

There is no free speech or free judiciary in China. A pretty big difference off the bat when it comes to political freedom and nationalism. China's sole political party controls it's own military, one currently on an expansionist agenda towards multiple countries at the same time. There is simply no analog to the political situation in China here in the States. The country is run by a single guy with an iron fist who does not care about other people's ideas, he's not even a fan of actual history so the entire country has to 'learn' his special version of Chinese and world history. State media there is consolidated, it doesn't have separate special interests and doesn't argue with itself like the right wing echo chamber does here in the States.

Look at the police state and social credit score bullshit. Nationalism is a problem in many places, but thankfully there are many areas in which the US isn't even a weak analog for it. China ranks second only to North Korea on that scale I'm afraid. The US has it's problems, but you don't see us setting up re education and forced labor camps for an entire ethnic group, right?

Strait up Nazi shit, even down to making movies about this and trying to sell the narrative these folks are better imprisoned than at home; they're having fun, acquiring new skills blah blah blah. In reality these people are tortured if they don't speak Mandarin, work, or comply with the CCPs social engineering efforts. Lots of torture. Widespread sterilization of women. MSS agents put in civilian houses to replace imprisoned fathers.

It's no contest.

Aren't we forgetting USA's black slavery, treatment of Native Americans, racial segregation and Japanese American Internment?

 

[kage69]

Aren't we forgetting USA's black slavery, treatment of Native Americans, racial segregation and Japanese American Internment?

Not at all. Our record is far from perfect, but you're talking about a different era. None of those are official government policies of the current US government, and in fact we have a history of reparations and reconciliation to our credit. In the case of Native Americans we provide land and autonomy. Is it ideal? Does it excuse the past? Hell no, but it's a hell of a lot better than what happens in China or Russia. The US isn't trying to stamp out a religion, or conduct a campaign of forced sterilization and forced abortions on minorities. In China that's just a Tuesday.

You ever hear of the CCP apologizing to Falun Gong, or Uighurs? Try to make things right? Yeah me neither.

 

[brycejones]

Aren't we forgetting USA's black slavery, treatment of Native Americans, racial segregation and Japanese American Internment?

Those are all horrible things but unfortunately not unusual for their eras nor unique to the US.

China is refusing to learn from history and that makes it worse in my opinion.

 

[hal2kilo]

@Ajay A lot of what kage69 touched upon created modern day China. The main impetus for the creation of modern day China, which to me is communist China, has been the repeated defeats at the hands of other countries. The collective "loss of face" is what drives the CCP.

Imperial China literally had two wars where European countries fought to continue to sell opium to them, and the occupation by Japan and the atrocities committed by Japan on the Chinese populace. There's a whole bunch of other relatively "minor" skirmishes. I think just as importantly, the US played a role in taking advantage of China during the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion.

I also think that, the US lost a great opportunity to influence and temper communist China, when it was first created. Instead of recognizing the People's Republic of China (PRC, mainland China), it instead recognized the Republic of China (Taiwan).

I think it's important to recognize where the antagonistic nature of China came from, to understand their actions. I also think it's important to keep in mind that the general populace has exactly zero say in shaping Chinese politics.

And it's scary how similar The GOP with Fox News, OAN, etc. and the PRC and their state news media outlets.

Although, a fictional account the movie The Sand Pebbles is a good start in understanding the situation.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

What is nationalism but self identification with a nation and for reasons that confer a sense of pride?

One small niggle, nationalism may not strictly, but almost without exclusion, requires another country to be 'greater than' to actually exist. If there's only one county in the world, there's nothing to be prideful of. If you prefer, the only reason heaven seems great is because of the piss-poor day the people in hell are having.

 

[nickqt]

Nationalism creeps up when there are a lot of internal problems inside a country and a large enough group inside that country blames ALL problems on a different group inside the country, AND also drags in traditional foreign enemies to blame...often tying enemy internal group with traditional foreign group. We'll call that nationalist in-group NAZIs.

Typically the out group in that same country is more inclusive and isn't attempting to blame all problems on the NAZIs, but instead point out that NAZIs aren't making the problems any better and in fact support shit policies by supporting the god damn NAZIs. We'll call that group Socialists. They are not homogenous in any sense of the word, compared to the NAZIs. They aren't trying to exclude others based on any specific identity, instead they attempt to exclude NAZIs and NAZI supporters based on the merits of the NAZIs and their supporters, i.e. wanting to fucking murder people, wanting to put political opponents in prison because they're political opponents, etc.

Well, without me going into a super long winded rant, there are problems on every square inch of the globe, because societal collapse isn't coming, it's fucking here. No, I'm not saying the end of the world as we know it (TEOTWAWKI) is next Tuesday, or before 2060, never mind 2030. And it isn't necessarily nuclear Armageddon or the earth becoming like Venus. What it looks like is first world countries no longer having 24/7/365 access to things it takes for granted that make it a first world country. Rolling blackouts, unclean water, polluted water/air/soil, etc. There's 40 major society-collapsing issues staring at us right now, not including climate change.

There is no going back to 1970 and redoing everything, and even back then, smart people did the fucking math and it was determined that humanity was going to expand beyond a sustainable limit of growth. You know, because here in reality there are finite resources on this finite planet and just digging up as much of it as soon as possible and burning it and turning it into trash to make profit isn't sustainable, long term. But it makes for a great receipt of goods. We call it GDP by the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth

Anyway, nationalism from the 1930s was an "answer" to the many problems faced by people then who were getting access to a new almost limitless form of propaganda vomited forth by shitty human beings who wanted to blame all the problems on internal enemies and traditional foreign enemies.

We're getting the same shit today for a lot of the same reasons. But heaven fucking forbid you mention societal collapse that is literally already happening now, because then you get ignored and people go on polemics about how nuclear fusion and room-temperature semi-conductors and unlimited clean energy are going to turn everything around - which is all literal science fiction now and will probably remain that way as society collapses and we lose the ability to build newer better things as our infrastructure rots around us.

 

[sdifox]

Great. I'll be reading up on post-WWII chinese history now. Thanks ;-)

You are going to have to start around 1900

 

[sdifox]

Not at all. Our record is far from perfect, but you're talking about a different era. None of those are official government policies of the current US government, and in fact we have a history of reparations and reconciliation to our credit. In the case of Native Americans we provide land and autonomy. Is it ideal? Does it excuse the past? Hell no, but it's a hell of a lot better than what happens in China or Russia. The US isn't trying to stamp out a religion, or conduct a campaign of forced sterilization and forced abortions on minorities. In China that's just a Tuesday.

You ever hear of the CCP apologizing to Falun Gong, or Uighurs? Try to make things right? Yeah me neither.

Isn't that just a timing issue? It was government policy while they were happening. While there is no way CCP will ever apologise for any wrongdoing, it doesn't mean what US did wasn't equally wrong.

 

[sdifox]

Those are all horrible things but unfortunately not unusual for their eras nor unique to the US.

China is refusing to learn from history and that makes it worse in my opinion.

It's what happens when you are conservative. There is very little chance of improvement if your focus is maintaining status quo.

 

[kage69]

Although, a fictional account the movie The Sand Pebbles is a good start in understanding the situation.

Main Stim Stop Wow!

 

[akugami]

ROC predates PRC. Chang Kai Shek had a chance to wipe out the commmies (last commie stronghold was in Xi-An) but was stopped by Churchill and Roosevelt cuz they didn't want to upset Stalin.

They should have. I think the world would have been a better place without communist China.

With that said, I'm not arguing with the ROC or PRC was first, but rather that the US could have recognized the PRC earlier when Mao Ze Dong reached out to Roosevelt in 1945. Now, we won't ever know what would truly happen if that came to pass, but I'd like to believe that with a friendly nation to temper the worst of the PRC's tendencies, maybe we'd have a more light handed PRC instead of today's iron fisted PRC.

 

[kage69]

Isn't that just a timing issue? It was government policy while they were happening. While there is no way CCP will ever apologise for any wrongdoing, it doesn't mean what US did was equally wrong.

Time, context, severity, scale... I can think of a couple germane points to describe that which you are trying to dismiss. I didn't even get to the organ harvesting.

I was being sarcastic about the apology, sorry it went over your head. I suppose your last bit there does the same for me. Do you have any examples of CCP reparations or restitution to minority groups that you could share with the class? I couldn't find any.

 

[Muse]

I honestly wasn't that familiar with that term. The extended relatives I deal with are struggling, but they are fighting. I would say that it's very possible that many are so jaded that they have no expectations of a better life. Paperwork got screwed up with the wife's brothers, and we had to redo it all over again. And it's pretty much a 10-14 year process for sponsorship. Many people desperately want out. While there were Chinese illegal immigrants before, the fact that it is increasing by a magnitude in the last decade or so tells you all you need to know about Xi's regime.

I think it should be obvious that my email for official government business, both in the US and for applying for a travel visa to Asian countries, is nowhere similar to my online handle and email that I use for forums like this. Not just for general Internet security's sake, but for protection of any extended relatives in China. It's that crazy in terms of how paranoid you have to be, even if you're not a Chinese citizen but have relatives in China.

My understanding of China with respect to its authoritarianism and the plight of those of some diversity is largely from reading this excellent book:

No escape : the true story of China's genocide of the Uyghurs (2022) - Nury Turkel

Amazon.com

https://www.google.com/books/edition/No_Escape/gJA9EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

Nury Turkel is impressive, an escapee, personal, informed and quite honest. You can find a few videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nury+turkel

 

[sdifox]

Time, context, severity, scale... I can think of a couple germane points to describe that which you are trying to dismiss. I didn't even get to the organ harvesting.

I was being sarcastic about the apology, sorry it went over your head. I suppose your last bit there does the same for me. Do you have any examples of CCP reparations or restitution to minority groups that you could share with the class? I couldn't find any.

Err whut? I just said CCP would never apologize, or are you saying apology erases the wrongdoing?

 

[Jaskalas]

PRC has been threatening to invade since 1949.

China has never been in a stronger position to enforce a blockade.
They grow stronger by the decade.

Some day they may decide Genocide is back in the menu, due to a loss of US influence.
And Republicans will lead the charge to ensure this occurs.

 

[manly]

They should have. I think the world would have been a better place without communist China.

With that said, I'm not arguing with the ROC or PRC was first, but rather that the US could have recognized the PRC earlier when Mao Ze Dong reached out to Roosevelt in 1945. Now, we won't ever know what would truly happen if that came to pass, but I'd like to believe that with a friendly nation to temper the worst of the PRC's tendencies, maybe we'd have a more light handed PRC instead of today's iron fisted PRC.

I'm confused. In 1945, ROC was an ally of the U.S. Even ignoring political ideology, the U.S. isn't going to recognize a rebellion against any ally.

If you're saying the U.S. could've recognized the PRC earlier than 1971 (but after 1949), who knows how that changes history. The main pivot point for China is arguably 1989, when they reaffirmed one-party rule with an iron fist. In the past two decades, their economy is largely market-based capitalism (with a heavy dose of state influence).

What Roosevelt or Truman didn't do in the mid 1940s didn't set the stage for today's CCP. China went through a lot of self-inflicted craziness under Mao and didn't begin to dig out until after he died.

 

[kage69]

Err whut? I just said CCP would never apologize, or are you saying apology erases the wrongdoing?

Tell you what, allow me to cut to a point more worthy of your consideration, in the interest of saving time.

Regardless of America's past foul and regrettable transgressions, and the contrition showed later, it doesn't excuse the CCP's current day litany of human rights abuses. Do you agree?