XP Pro 64 or Longhorn

MBrown

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
5,724
35
91
Is it worth waiting for Longhorn or should I get XP Pro 64 when it comes out?
 

MBrown

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
5,724
35
91
None. But Just having the capability to be able to run a 64bit program would be nice. I guessing just to wait for Longhorn would be the better choice. Am I right?
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Considering XP64 will be free because of the trade-in program, I don't see why you can't just get both.
 

MBrown

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
5,724
35
91
But you can only trade in XP pro right? Could I trade in a copy of XP home?
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Correct, you can only trade in Pro. But still, if that's the case, I'd still reccomend getting both. At the very least, try out the evaluation version of XP64 once MS releases it next month.
 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
Considering the fact that they've made a Windows XP 64 which just went RTM, what point is there in upgrading to Longhorn next year? What other features is it going to have besides just more BLOAT, idiot user treatment and being a resource hog?
 

LatinJones

Member
Nov 30, 2004
78
0
0
There aren't many applications that are going to take advantage of the 64 bit memory space. You more than likely won't notice a difference. I couldn't agree more about the BLOAT.

And I also can't stand the idiot windows treatment either. They should have a question in the setup dialog when you first install XP? Would you like me to treat you like a moron?

Or maybe even just a 'basic setup' and 'advanced setup' would be nice.....Sorry for the rant
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
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Originally posted by: Link19
Considering the fact that they've made a Windows XP 64 which just went RTM, what point is there in upgrading to Longhorn next year? What other features is it going to have besides just more BLOAT, idiot user treatment and being a resource hog?
MS has been very mum on Longhorn so far, they haven't talked about what features they're adding past what they need to tell developers. By the end of this year we should have an idea of what the major features will be, what the marketing push will be, and if it will be worth it as a result.
 

Jon855

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2005
1,214
0
0
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: Link19
Considering the fact that they've made a Windows XP 64 which just went RTM, what point is there in upgrading to Longhorn next year? What other features is it going to have besides just more BLOAT, idiot user treatment and being a resource hog?
MS has been very mum on Longhorn so far, they haven't talked about what features they're adding past what they need to tell developers. By the end of this year we should have an idea of what the major features will be, what the marketing push will be, and if it will be worth it as a result.

I second this, I think M$ needs to get some features out and all that. About the BLOAT, wouldn;t it be easier if we went only text based and the apps still can run in its current state? How's that for resource saving?
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
About the BLOAT, wouldn;t it be easier if we went only text based and the apps still can run in its current state? How's that for resource saving?

Funny you should say that, most of the tools I use daily are text based. I use mutt for mail, irssi for IRC, btdownloadcurses for bittorrent, qstat for checking game servers, dselect for package management, vim for text editing. And I use screen to hold them all so that I can disconnect and reconnect the session whenever I want sort of like TS.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
I'm very content with my windows 3.1 thank you very much

I would wait for longhorn...oh wait, your computer might not support it...i'd just pick up XP 64 bit...
 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
I second this, I think M$ needs to get some features out and all that. About the BLOAT, wouldn;t it be easier if we went only text based and the apps still can run in its current state? How's that for resource saving?

That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is more things stuffed into the OS that run on system startup by default and a more GUI animated desktop. I like a nice lokking GUI and click and point interface, but what we have now is fancy enough, and doesn't need to get any more fancy to add to the bloat. What's the whole point of releasing XP 64 if there aren't any programs that are going to take advanatge of 64-bit access to memory for quite some time? Miswell just wait for Longhorn 64-bit if it is still going to be a while before applications take advanatge of 64-bit access to memory. That is why I can see Longhorn being bloated and containing unnecessary features. Why else would XP 64-bit be released today and made to have a bright long future if Longhonr is going to be the OS of the future for 64-bit computing?
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: Link19
I second this, I think M$ needs to get some features out and all that. About the BLOAT, wouldn;t it be easier if we went only text based and the apps still can run in its current state? How's that for resource saving?

That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is more things stuffed into the OS that run on system startup by default and a more GUI animated desktop. I like a nice lokking GUI and click and point interface, but what we have now is fancy enough, and doesn't need to get any more fancy to add to the bloat. What's the whole point of releasing XP 64 if there aren't any programs that are going to take advanatge of 64-bit access to memory for quite some time? Miswell just wait for Longhorn 64-bit if it is still going to be a while before applications take advanatge of 64-bit access to memory. That is why I can see Longhorn being bloated and containing unnecessary features. Why else would XP 64-bit be released today and made to have a bright long future if Longhonr is going to be the OS of the future for 64-bit computing?
Look in to Apple's OS X 10.4(Tiger) some time, and read up on CoreImage; MS is looking at implementing some very similar features in to Longhorn.

PS XP64 is behind schedule; it was supposed to be out in 2004, and Longhorn in 2007, a sizable time difference. Besides, this is MS's way of getting the OS out now, so that they can exert the most pressure on having 64bit drivers ready for Longhorn64
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
What's the whole point of releasing XP 64 if there aren't any programs that are going to take advanatge of 64-bit access to memory for quite some time?

To give developers a 64-bit Windows platform to develop on, you can't have 64-bit apps until you have a 64-bit system to run them on. But even so most apps will hopefully never be 64-bit because there's no reason for them to be, for instance what would Word need >4G VM addressing for? Things like databases, 3D renderers, etc that actually need the additional VM are already 64-bit on unix so very little will change with the release of XP64 other than many people crying that they can't find 64-bit Windows drivers. Eventually games will probably have 64-bit releases but I doubt that'll happen soon either because they'll still need 32-bit versions for compatibility purposes.

 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
To give developers a 64-bit Windows platform to develop on, you can't have 64-bit apps until you have a 64-bit system to run them on. But even so most apps will hopefully never be 64-bit because there's no reason for them to be, for instance what would Word need >4G VM addressing for? Things like databases, 3D renderers, etc that actually need the additional VM are already 64-bit on unix so very little will change with the release of XP64 other than many people crying that they can't find 64-bit Windows drivers. Eventually games will probably have 64-bit releases but I doubt that'll happen soon either because they'll still need 32-bit versions for compatibility purposes.

So, does that mean that there is absolutely no benefit to developing 64-bit applications unless you have more than 4GB of RAM in the system? Because 32-bit applictaions can access up to 4GB of RAM? So would a 64-bit application have no performance advanatge over a 32-bit application unless you have more than 4GB of RAM?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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So, does that mean that there is absolutely no benefit to developing 64-bit applications unless you have more than 4GB of RAM in the system? Because 32-bit applictaions can access up to 4GB of RAM? So would a 64-bit application have no performance advanatge over a 32-bit application unless you have more than 4GB of RAM?

No, there is no where near 2 gig of contigous address space available to apps. As an industry it will start being used, and products will come out that no-one here will expect (people said we didn't need 32bit addresssing too!). The 64bit address space should keep us busy for the next decade possibly two.

Bill
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: bsobel
So, does that mean that there is absolutely no benefit to developing 64-bit applications unless you have more than 4GB of RAM in the system? Because 32-bit applictaions can access up to 4GB of RAM? So would a 64-bit application have no performance advanatge over a 32-bit application unless you have more than 4GB of RAM?

No, there is no where near 2 gig of contigous address space available to apps. As an industry it will start being used, and products will come out that no-one here will expect (people said we didn't need 32bit addresssing too!). The 64bit address space should keep us busy for the next decade possibly two.

Bill
Well, when you put things in perspective on the x86 side, we jumped to 32bits in 1985(386), and didn't make another jump until nearly 20 years later. This time around we're adding twice as many bits, so it should in theory take us twice as long(40 years) to outgrow 64bit addressing.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Well, when you put things in perspective on the x86 side, we jumped to 32bits in 1985(386), and didn't make another jump until nearly 20 years later. This time around we're adding twice as many bits, so it should in theory take us twice as long(40 years) to outgrow 64bit addressing.

That presumes the industry has grown linerally, it hasn't...
Bill
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: bsobel
Well, when you put things in perspective on the x86 side, we jumped to 32bits in 1985(386), and didn't make another jump until nearly 20 years later. This time around we're adding twice as many bits, so it should in theory take us twice as long(40 years) to outgrow 64bit addressing.

That presumes the industry has grown linerally, it hasn't...
Bill
But it isn't linear growth, it's exponential. The average RAM configuration doubled nearly every 12-18 months; which is why we burnt through 32bit space in 20 years. At that same rate, it would take 40 years to burn through 64bit space, so the only way we can burn through 64bit space any faster is to end up on a 8-12 month timeline, which I don't see happening. I actually think it's more likely that 64bit space will last longer than 40 years, but we'll see.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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But it isn't linear growth, it's exponential. The average RAM configuration doubled nearly every 12-18 months; which is why we burnt through 32bit space in 20 years. At that same rate, it would take 40 years to burn through 64bit space, so the only way we can burn through 64bit space any faster is to end up on a 8-12 month timeline, which I don't see happening. I actually think it's more likely that 64bit space will last longer than 40 years, but we'll see.

Meet you back here on 4/14/2025 to see where we are then

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
So, does that mean that there is absolutely no benefit to developing 64-bit applications unless you have more than 4GB of RAM in the system? Because 32-bit applictaions can access up to 4GB of RAM? So would a 64-bit application have no performance advanatge over a 32-bit application unless you have more than 4GB of RAM?

The limits on VM are not related to the limits on physical memory at all. And in Windows userland apps only get 2G of VM, the kernel reserves the upper 2G for itself.

There is almost no benefit from just having the address space available, if the app needs the addresses it'll just not work on a 32-bit machine or it'll run a lot slower as it has to continually map/unmap data to keep it's working set within the 2G limitations.

Any performance advantages from running XP64 will almostall be from the difference in hardware and not in the available address space. The additional cache, on-die memory controller, extra registers, etc will increase speed a little bit no matter what.

Well, when you put things in perspective on the x86 side, we jumped to 32bits in 1985(386), and didn't make another jump until nearly 20 years later. This time around we're adding twice as many bits, so it should in theory take us twice as long(40 years) to outgrow 64bit addressing.

Actually Opteron only does 48-bit virtual addressing right now, increasing that will require a hardware upgrade but software should be none the wiser but that does mean you can't use all 64-bits worth of addresses yet.
 
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