XP still won't die . . . .

escrow4

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2013
3,339
122
106
So, bought a new phone a few months back from the biggest telecommunication provider here in Australia - Telstra. They are huge, make billions in deals, upgrades, the NBN etc. The store was running XP. Place I work at also makes billions (with an "s") in profit year on year - the terminals run XP with some mobile ones running Unix. Its shocking, XP is long dead and there is no excuse for these companies to be running ancient tech. Yes we have had a crash that broke stock counts (oops), even the Unix terminals have a nasty tendency to be twitchy. Those XP boxes are Internet capable too (an outdated version of Chrome frequently is run that nags to be updated on some).

Now I'm certain MS would give deep deep discounts to upgrade to 8 and likely chuck in a few Surfaces to boot (managers tend to have Ipads) but no, creaky old tech continues. Its amazing.
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,371
762
126
Hey, you can just sit back and wait for them to get hacked, just like all the other places running XP.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,452
12,609
126
www.anyf.ca
We're running XP at work, but they recently started to slowly convert to 7. Problem is because all the coding is outsourced most of those apps are super crappy and wont run properly in 7, so lot of stuff runs in VMs. They're also being way more strict about what you can install. They wont allow Chrome of Firefox, only IE. My machine did not get touched yet but not looking forward to dealing with all that. Going to suck losing tabbed browsing. We already have about 40 open windows, it's going to be even worse now being stuck using IE. Funny thing is they probably do that for security... Chrome and Firefox are much more secure than IE6.

Most TV news stations are running XP too, you can see on the computers in the background sometimes. That's what happens when you outsource coding, end up with crappy code that makes upgrading very hard. Yet companies continue to do it.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,629
4,683
136
Some are still running Windows for workgroups 3.11. Meh XP would be a massive upgrade.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,452
12,609
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I worked at a hospital that still had NT4 server stuff with zero intention of upgrading. Was running super critical software in which the company no longer exists so there was no support or newer version. Gotta love that... It's scary the stuff that you see in the enterprise world.
 

ninaholic37

Golden Member
Apr 13, 2012
1,883
31
91
I have XP as my backup partition but not connected to the net, for whatever programs don't work (or don't run as easily) in my Linux and MS-DOS partition. It fills that potential 2% void
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,593
11,271
136
I think there's a lot more to consider in the topic of computer security than to say things like "XP must die". Example: XP in the hands of an informed, sensible user is a heck of a lot more of a secure setup than a currently-supported OS in the hands of a "click first, ask questions later" idiot.

I worked at a hospital that still had NT4 server stuff with zero intention of upgrading. Was running super critical software in which the company no longer exists so there was no support or newer version. Gotta love that... It's scary the stuff that you see in the enterprise world.

If the machine isn't used (in the sense that someone is using it like a standard PC), and the machine isn't Internet connected, then the only thing that would concern me in that scenario is the age of the hardware.
 

Charlie98

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2011
6,292
62
91
I still see a lot of XP out there. I wonder if it isn't necessarily the cost of the software as it is the cost of the labor, or in some cases contract labor, to upgrade. The bean counters probably look at that and say 'if XP isn't broken, don't fix it!'
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,693
136
If the machine isn't used (in the sense that someone is using it like a standard PC), and the machine isn't Internet connected, then the only thing that would concern me in that scenario is the age of the hardware.

At this point I'd be seriously concerned. I suppose it could be a newer machine that's had NT4 installed, but even then you're properly looking at 15+ year old hardware. If anything does go south, it'll be hard to just find something that's compatible to replace it.

That goes double if its a critical system...
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,593
11,271
136
Btw, I wasn't trying to downplay how much of a concern the ancient hardware would be to me if I had to admin those servers, just that the topic is regarding operating systems.

Hopefully in that server's scenario the software will work on a newer version of Windows without too much faffing around and that no custom hardware is involved. Perhaps that's the reason why it's still running, the admins know that they can throw over the necessary software/data to a newer server without any problems, but they would prefer (or perhaps have to) to keep the role of that server separate from others.

I retired my P3-866-based server last year; that processor at one time ran NT4
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,693
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Btw, I wasn't trying to downplay how much of a concern the ancient hardware would be to me if I had to admin those servers, just that the topic is regarding operating systems.

Hopefully in that server's scenario the software will work on a newer version of Windows without too much faffing around and that no custom hardware is involved. Perhaps that's the reason why it's still running, the admins know that they can throw over the necessary software/data to a newer server without any problems, but they would prefer (or perhaps have to) to keep the role of that server separate from others.

I wasn't trying to imply anything, just that I'd personally have some reservations with running such ancient hardware. I sure hope those admins got themselves covered if the systems suddenly fails, but since I don't know the specifics I'll not comment further on it...

Hopefully they have access to the source code, so it can easily be made to run on a newer version of Windows.

I retired my P3-866-based server last year; that processor at one time ran NT4

I still have some 90's hardware running in fact, mainly for nostalgic reasons, but I shudder at the thought of using such a system in a business setting.
 

skriefal

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2000
1,418
3
81
Windows for Workgroups? Ha. There are still PDP-11s out there, running mission critical software at nuclear plants and elsewhere. But those have less general-purpose software on them, so may be less hackable than WFW or XP.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,551
10,171
126
I worked at a hospital that still had NT4 server stuff with zero intention of upgrading. Was running super critical software in which the company no longer exists so there was no support or newer version. Gotta love that... It's scary the stuff that you see in the enterprise world.

This is precisely why Libre software is important. If the vendor goes out of business, you have the source code, so you can hire someone else to do a bespoke upgrade version for you.

It's amazing that more businesses haven't figured this out by now.
 
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escrow4

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2013
3,339
122
106
I think there's a lot more to consider in the topic of computer security than to say things like "XP must die". Example: XP in the hands of an informed, sensible user is a heck of a lot more of a secure setup than a currently-supported OS in the hands of a "click first, ask questions later" idiot.



If the machine isn't used (in the sense that someone is using it like a standard PC), and the machine isn't Internet connected, then the only thing that would concern me in that scenario is the age of the hardware.

An informed sensible user wouldn't be using XP. Its swiss cheese. 7 and 8.1 have made huge strides forward in terms of security both for the user and kernel bits. And even offline XP, a USB here, autoruns there, and oops its all over. These companies here have billions and are still relying on old crap. Its just ridiculous. And hospitals *shudders*.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,452
12,609
126
www.anyf.ca
If the machine isn't used (in the sense that someone is using it like a standard PC), and the machine isn't Internet connected, then the only thing that would concern me in that scenario is the age of the hardware.

Thankfully it was virtualized and had image backups but it still can be an issue. Windows, or any software, can sometimes randomly decide to crap out, and not recover. If there's zero support, you don't even have original CDs or anything, you're quite screwed. This was also on a network full of worms like Sasser and other goodies, because the IT manager did not believe in Windows Update, he did not like doing that stuff during hours, and did not like paying us over time to do it off hours.

There was this other machine running the whole payroll system running on SCO Unix. Nobody knew the password for it, and because it was using a proprietary file system there was no way to actually get into it from a boot disk. Every now and then it would lock up and had to be force restarted. I was always scared that one day it does not come back. This was on our old VM environment but we wanted to get rid of that server but we could not port just the VM alone as the disk changed (ex: from hda to sda) and it would not boot. We ended up virtualizing the virtual server. A VM inside a VM. Man that place was a mess, so glad I'm out of there.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,452
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www.anyf.ca
This is precisely why Libre software is important. If the vendor goes out of business, you have the source code, so you can hire someone else to do a bespoke upgrade version for you.

It's amazing that more businesses haven't figured this out by now.

For sure. Buisnesses always want to go with the really expensive corporate stuff, or outsource stuff to another company because of liabity reasons but they don't realize that when the contract is up, they're on their own if something happens.

This goes for hardware too. Yeah, companies like Dell and such have awesome support like 4 hour on site delivery of a part, but after that 3 year warranty is up, you're on your own, and that stuff uses very proprietary parts, you can't just order spare parts from Newegg.

Personally if I ran a company it would all be semi enterprise grade hardware (like Supermicro) with lot of spare parts and redundancy built in, and software would be custom built in house. No reliance on outside parties. The knowledge is in house.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,593
11,271
136
Thankfully it was virtualized and had image backups but it still can be an issue. Windows, or any software, can sometimes randomly decide to crap out, and not recover.

Yeah no. If what you were saying was true, in a large enough data centre you'd have engineers running around with install CDs playing whack-a-mole, which in turn would result in Windows not being used in such environments.

Furthermore, if it's (the situation you described) virtualised and had backups, then they can can just re-load the most recent working image and data.

If Windows craps out, there's a reason. If that wasn't statement wasn't true, my job would be a living hell, having to explain to customers "oh, Windows just does that sometimes for no reason". And no, I've never said anything like "Windows just needs reinstalling from time to time to keep your computer in good working order", because that's also BS.

This was also on a network full of worms like Sasser and other goodies, because the IT manager did not believe in Windows Update, he did not like doing that stuff during hours, and did not like paying us over time to do it off hours.
This is an order of magnitude more worrying.

An informed sensible user wouldn't be using XP. Its swiss cheese. 7 and 8.1 have made huge strides forward in terms of security both for the user and kernel bits. And even offline XP, a USB here, autoruns there, and oops its all over. These companies here have billions and are still relying on old crap. Its just ridiculous. And hospitals *shudders*.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote, or at least you attempted to say that you can speak for all informed users everywhere, which is always an amusing boast.

A poorly configured OS in terms of security is always a target. You cite XP autoplay as an example, which can be disabled with a registry modification. Furthermore, when you talk about "huge strides forward in terms of security", it's odd how the same Windows security updates are available for Win81 as Win7, and sometimes even a few Win81 specific, and that the general number of monthly updates have not decreased since the days of XP being supported.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that newer versions of Windows are a bit more secure than older versions, and I advocate Win81 to customers because it will be in the most ideal state wrt support compared to other versions of Windows, for a longer period of time.

However, the reason why "XP won't die" as you put it is because of the following:

a) It does the job required
b) Upgrading is costly
c) Upgrading has an element of risk involved (older applications support)
d) A lot of the time, there isn't a compelling reason to upgrade (eg. your job becomes much easier because you're on a newer version of Windows)

I know XP-using customers who haven't picked up any malware over the years I've known them. I also know Windows 7/8x-using customers whom I see pretty much every year because their habits are like a malware magnet.

I sell Windows upgrades (from XP to 7/8x) based on explanations of what Windows updates normally do and so why they're important, but I also explain that it's not a black and white situation of "full security" versus "no security", simply because there's always a way in, that's why there's an ongoing process of security updates, and that the most common and easiest way in is to dupe the user into doing something stupid.
 
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Chiefcrowe

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2008
5,044
184
116
Wow, that is pretty crazy.
How long ago were you there and do you think they're still running NT 4?!



Thankfully it was virtualized and had image backups but it still can be an issue. Windows, or any software, can sometimes randomly decide to crap out, and not recover. If there's zero support, you don't even have original CDs or anything, you're quite screwed. This was also on a network full of worms like Sasser and other goodies, because the IT manager did not believe in Windows Update, he did not like doing that stuff during hours, and did not like paying us over time to do it off hours.

There was this other machine running the whole payroll system running on SCO Unix. Nobody knew the password for it, and because it was using a proprietary file system there was no way to actually get into it from a boot disk. Every now and then it would lock up and had to be force restarted. I was always scared that one day it does not come back. This was on our old VM environment but we wanted to get rid of that server but we could not port just the VM alone as the disk changed (ex: from hda to sda) and it would not boot. We ended up virtualizing the virtual server. A VM inside a VM. Man that place was a mess, so glad I'm out of there.
 

Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
An informed sensible user wouldn't be using XP. Its swiss cheese. 7 and 8.1 have made huge strides forward in terms of security both for the user and kernel bits. And even offline XP, a USB here, autoruns there, and oops its all over. These companies here have billions and are still relying on old crap. Its just ridiculous. And hospitals *shudders*.

5he autoplay function can be disabled, and software written to shore up security as necessary, for example, locking out external software installations altogether.
 

ninaholic37

Golden Member
Apr 13, 2012
1,883
31
91
However, the reason why "XP won't die" as you put it is because of the following:

a) It does the job required
b) Upgrading is costly
c) Upgrading has an element of risk involved (older applications support)
d) A lot of the time, there isn't a compelling reason to upgrade (eg. your job becomes much easier because you're on a newer version of Windows)

I know XP-using customers who haven't picked up any malware over the years I've known them. I also know Windows 7/8x-using customers whom I see pretty much every year because their habits are like a malware magnet.

I sell Windows upgrades (from XP to 7/8x) based on explanations of what Windows updates normally do and so why they're important, but I also explain that it's not a black and white situation of "full security" versus "no security", simply because there's always a way in, that's why there's an ongoing process of security updates, and that the most common and easiest way in is to dupe the user into doing something stupid.
Another thing is that XP has had around 13 years to work out the bugs, whereas Windows 8/10 is always changing and still in a "we don't really know exactly what we're doing" phase introducing new things all the time which could lead to exposing new problems and holes. This is why I'm ok with using the Linux version of Flash (when I actually need to) because the only thing it updates is security and not changing things all the time like 12-16 which introduced new vulnerabilities.
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,693
136
Another thing is that XP has had around 13 years to work out the bugs, whereas Windows 8/10 is always changing and still in a "we don't really know exactly what we're doing" phase introducing new things all the time which could lead to exposing new problems and holes. This is why I'm ok with using the Linux version of Flash (when I actually need to) because the only thing it updates is security and not changing things all the time like 12-16 which introduced new vulnerabilities.

I don't think any of us here have anything against running old software, so long as the proper precautions have been taken. XP is a known quantity, you know what you're getting, and personally I know it like the back of my hand.

Actually, our NHS here in Denmark is still running 70's vintage software for some things, so anything is possible... ()
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,452
12,609
126
www.anyf.ca
Wow, that is pretty crazy.
How long ago were you there and do you think they're still running NT 4?!

It's probably been like 3-4 years now, and I would not be surprised if that stuff is pretty much the same as it was. Funny thing is the new stuff was state of the art, 8ish high end ESX servers, 2 SAN enclosures, good backup solution, etc. But the old stuff just lingers, and they don't want to take appropriate steps to upgrade to a newer system for those things.
 

Omar F1

Senior member
Sep 29, 2009
491
8
76
As members already stated, some businesses would never abandon XP until they upgrade their work software/system, especially in small sized establishments.


Another thing is that XP has had around 13 years to work out the bugs, whereas Windows 8/10 is always changing and still in a "we don't really know exactly what we're doing" phase introducing new things all the time which could lead to exposing new problems and holes.
I agree, in addition to the point that newest versions seems "more bloated :sneaky:" compared to XP, especially from business side.

Honestly and with due respect to others opinions, I can't imagine our work place PCs running Win8, the interface isn't that serious!
 
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