We should have more threads like these, just so I can figure out who to ignore instantly without even reading their posts.
These videos show this guy was no kindly Geppetto that his acquaintancesmake him out to be.
It seems he was mentally ill and becoming more and more aggressive. I doubt that the cop just executed him. Now it's hard to say if he actually came at the cop aggresively but it's very possible if he was drunk and out of his gourd.
The cop handled the situation perfectly. Right up till he shot the guy in the back.
Seattle Officer 'Surprised' That Woodcarver's Knife Was Found Closed
Under questioning from the Williams family attorney, Tim Ford, Birk role-played as if he were Williams.
"The knife is up in front of him, and he's not doing anything like putting his hands up, or looking confused, or asking me what's going on, or showing any sign of compliance whatsoever," Birk said. "All I got from him, the only information I got from him, was aggression directed toward me."
Ford showed Birk the knife that Williams was carrying and said that when Birk approached the body, Birk saw that the knife was closed.
"Did you think, 'My God, the knife is closed'?" Ford asked.
"Nothing of that specific nature went through my mind," Birk said. "It did surprise me that the knife was closed, having just seen Mr. Williams holding the knife open in his hand. So I have no idea how that knife was closed (or) if it was the knife I saw initially or not."
Ian Birk is seen in court on Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011, demonstrating the way John T. Williams allegedly swung a knife at him.
Detective: No witnesses said police shooting victim a threat
The lead detective investigating the fatal police shooting of a homeless man acknowledged Tuesday that none of the witnesses to the Seattle shooting saw the man as a threat.
Therock was pointing out that we don't know what happened, a hell of a lot can happen in seven seconds. The media has crucified HUNDREDS of officers by omitting details that later came out in trial. No one here had justified the officers actions, the only people defending him are doing so by pointing out how presumptuous the rest of you are being.
Does this look bad? Hell yea. But so have a lot of other cases in the past, we don't have video of the shooting. A lot of things can happen in 7 seconds.
Uhhh I have yet to see a video that shows what happens. The shooting wasn't captured by the camera. So how could anyone say he was "minding his own business"? And it doesn't take 7 seconds to turn around and drop your knife. Count it out in your head. One mississippi...
We should give the police officer a medal for cleaning up with street, and get rid of homeless people.
This incident would have been pushed under rug and the carver would have been blame for everything if there weren't for the video.
We are living in a world that have different set of laws for different class of people and occupation.
He was shot in the right side, Williams was in a side stance. This is normal, thats why it hasnt come up in the courtroom, only the media, because they like to get guys like you.But lets get this straight, he was shot in the back. The 21 feet rule (as I understand) says that if a suspect with a knife makes any threatening moves, within 21 feet, that the cop can take action. Is turning around threatening?
Williams was, as it appears, looking at Birk, but he was not face to face. A very good chance he knew an officer was giving him an order, I have some doubts of this, however ignoring a command does not and should not be responded to with lethal force. If all he did was ignore commands, the officer should be charged with negligent manslaughter. The problem is, we dont know if this is what happened. The detective had holes in his story. Testimony from Lt. Lisa Barron, contradicts the detective. Birk changed his story; the witnesses are damn close to useless with their legal testimony so far. As I suspected, the media seemed to have twisted their testimonies.Lets also not forget that at this point, Williams did not know who was telling him to drop the knife. He probably never knew that this dude was even a cop. So as far as he knows, some dude shouts at him to drop the knife, he tries to turn around to see who and gets plugged. Unless you want to argue that he knows some mystical way of running backwards as fast as he can forwards, and stabbing an officer he cant see?
Im showing the possibilities here, and pointing out that none of you can know what happened. I guess preponderance is just really prevalent here. This was my original quote that set you all ablaze, and it was before courtroom testimony was published. I cant make this IF and larger than size seven.Please carry on defending a murderer though, its interesting to see how you justify his actions.
Williams was WELL within 21ft, if you don't know the significance of this then google it. If Williams made any indication of a threat, verbal or otherwise, the shooting should, and will be ruled justified.
Detective: No witnesses said police shooting victim a threat
The lead detective investigating the fatal police shooting of a homeless man acknowledged Tuesday that none of the witnesses to the Seattle shooting saw the man as a threat.
Jurors also heard the first testimony from witnesses Wednesday.
Amy Gill, who was driving in the area, testified that from about 75 feet away she saw Williams carrying what she thought was a cardboard box or paper bag. She said she heard someone yell: "Hey, hey," but couldn't tell who it was, then she heard gunshots.
Asked by Senior Deputy Prosecutor Melinda Young whether Gill saw Williams "do anything that you perceived as threatening," Gill responded: "No."
But under questioning by Birk's attorney, Ted Buck, Gill said she couldn't see if Williams was holding a deadly weapon and that her attention might have been diverted by traffic.
Another witness, John Hartsfield, testified that while driving, he saw Birk fire at someone Hartsfield couldn't see.
Hartsfield said he didn't sense "any delay at all" between the time the officer exited the car and when the shots were fired.
"I was shocked and surprised. He seemed more aggressive than I was expecting," Hartsfield said of the officer.
Wait... which shot in the back do you mean? The 1st? 2nd? 3rd? 4th or 5th?
They all said he didn't make any threatening moves towards the officer though. Of course they all saw something different, that's what happens when you see things from different angles.
We are living in a world that have different set of laws for different class of people and occupation.
State lawmakers enacted the malice and good-faith language in the mid-1980s, when they put limits on when police may use deadly force. At the same, legislators adopted a higher standard for criminally prosecuting officers than ordinary citizens, apparently in recognition of the demands put on police.
"I think it's appropriately high," said Snohomish County Prosecutor Mark Roe, citing the tough, split-second decisions police officers are required to make.
Officers are allowed to make a mistake or even panic without being held criminally liable, Roe said in an e-mail and interview.
Did Birk fuck up? Looks like it! On page one I agreed with someone that said that. Should he lose his job? Yes. Will he be charged criminally? I really doubt it. We can make reasonable assumptions, and it looks like a trigger happy rookie, but this case won't be proven legally, not with testimonies like yesterdays. Is it right? No. But thats the system, we dont send people to jail unless we know, and can prove charges. In this case, WE DONT KNOW and WE CANT PROVE.
If you didn't notice, this is exactly what people are upset about.
I've said it before in these types of threads, this type of behavior and attitude (the officers) needs to be addressed at the academy level.
To sum up, according to FDF12389 the following is excellent police work:
1) Approach suspect from behind
2) Close to within a distance at which (allegedly) the only option if he doesn't immediately comply is to kill him
3) Do not identify yourself as a peace officer
4) Yell, "Hey!" a few times but don't bother to say anything that would inform the suspect that you're talking to him
5) Yell, "Drop the knife" a few times before even verifying that the suspect heard you, knows that you're addressing him, or knows that you're an officer
6) Fatally shoot the suspect as he turns around to see who's yelling
7) Lie on your initial report and falsely claim that suspect lunged at you
For especially good police work, be sure to perform steps 1-6 in seven seconds and steps 5 & 6 in four.
You have some pretty terrible reading skills there dude.
his summation is actually pretty accurate. Maybe in your mind that's not what you're saying. If so, you're doing a shitty job of communicating your thoughts, because most of us think you're saying exactly what Venix just listed
To sum up, according to FDF12389 the following is excellent police work:
1) Approach suspect from behind Nothing against SOP there
2) Close to within a distance(Again, this is fine) at which (allegedly) the only option if he doesn't immediately comply is to kill him
I never said that, I said within that distance, any threatening behavior, will justify the officers actions. I never said there wasn't a better way Birk could have handled it. And I never claimed the suspect performed any threatening actions, only that if he did, the use of force will be justified.
3) Do not identify yourself as a peace officer
Should have, but his lights were on, and Birk claims Williams turned his head and looked at the him. Witnesses have not refuted this.
4) Yell, "Hey!" a few times but don't bother to say anything that would inform the suspect that you're talking to him
I wasn't there, but there wasn't anyone else close to Williams(~50-60 ft), I would have to think Williams knew he was being addressed.
5) Yell, "Drop the knife" a few times before even verifying that the suspect heard you, knows that you're addressing him, or knows that you're an officer
Don't see much horrible wrong here, if he's looking at you, and you say drop the knife, you expect him to do so.
6) Fatally shoot the suspect as he turns around to see who's yelling
I never said this was correct, I've just been saying might not have happened this way, witnesses are vague. And a lot can happen in a few seconds. Again, only saying something else might have happened. (And when I said this it was before Birk's testimony)
7) Lie on your initial report and falsely claim that suspect lunged at you
Obviously never said this was ok.
For especially good police work, be sure to perform steps 1-6 in seven seconds and steps 5 & 6 in four.
If it happened the way Birk says, then it was just a quick situation. If it didn't, then Birk fucked up big time, but we still don't know. Either way he could have handled it differently, but with the information we have, who is to say he should have?
The video clearly shown that the man on the ground was breathing, and all the cops (10 of them) just stand there in a stance with their gun drawn and point at the wounded body on the ground. They yank on the limped body instead of helping the obviously badly wounded person.View from the camera of a responding vehicle, has a great angle and shows the positions very well.
Warning: Dead body clearly visible in video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5IDdUxzs1s
You can jump to :50 for the scene, but you will miss some of the radio traffic.
damn. that is pretty damning for him.
IMHO, it is better that this cops and the buddies that protects him are taken off the street ASAP.Witness contradicts Seattle police officer's version of woodcarver shooting
By Steve Miletich and Christine Clarridge
Seattle Times staff reporters
John T. Williams did not hold up a knife or do anything threatening before he was fatally shot by Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk, a key witness testified Thursday.
"Not that I recall," Deanna Sebring, a city of Seattle technician, told an inquest jury when asked whether she saw anything that justified the Aug. 30 shooting.
Sebring, who was walking near where the shooting occurred, testified that Williams appeared to be trying to put something in or out of a box.
Williams, a woodcarver, was carrying a piece of wood and a small knife when he was shot four times.
Sebring's testimony contradicted Birk's earlier testimony that he fired after Williams brandished a knife and prepared to attack him.
Sebring took the witness stand on the fourth day of the fact-finding hearing.
On the third day of the hearing Wednesday, Birk was grilled by an attorney for the Williams family who sought to show Birk was fabricating or embellishing his story.
Attorney Tim Ford asked how many times Birk had practiced his testimony and whether he had been professionally coached...
View from the camera of a responding vehicle, has a great angle and shows the positions very well.
Warning: Dead body clearly visible in video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5IDdUxzs1s
You can jump to :50 for the scene, but you will miss some of the radio traffic.