YAGT: OMG I love guns

[irishScott]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnwkZIJRoa4

Lost it. His license. Also his mind.

And making us all look bad in the process. James Yeagar is the gun control lobby's wet dream.

Worst thing is in his response video he called anyone who told him to tone it down a "fair weather 2nd amendment supporter" and told them to "fuck off". He sounds like one of those guys who wants a civil war so they can have personal validation.

 

[shortylickens]

And making us all look bad in the process. James Yeagar is the gun control lobby's wet dream.

Worst thing is in his response video he called anyone who told him to tone it down a "fair weather 2nd amendment supporter" and told them to "fuck off". He sounds like one of those guys who wants a civil war so they can have personal validation.

Yeah this is a dude with issues who refuses to deal with them and instead lashes out at the world. He's like Hitler but lacking charisma and good speech-giving ability.

Hopefully no one follows him or else we have another dangerous gun-cult on our hands, and we all know what happens to them.

 

[exdeath]

Ugh this is like people whining about wearing out throwout bearings on clutches if you sit at a light with the clutch in. /doublefacepalm

 

[irishScott]

Yeah this is a dude with issues who refuses to deal with them and instead lashes out at the world. He's like Hitler but lacking charisma and good speech-giving ability.

Hopefully no one follows him or else we have another dangerous gun-cult on our hands, and we all know what happens to them.

Apparently we already do. He mentioned he got a lot of calls from subscribers essentially asking "where and when?" and that he'd basically accidentally assembled an army with that video. Granted I'm not sure what in his mind constitutes an "army" but the fact that any significant number of people "answered the call" as it were is... kinda freaky.

And he has 70k subscribers. Suffice it to say I'd bet money he's on a terrorist watch list of some sort at this point.

 

[HumblePie]

Sorry, I know Yeager is an idiot, but he does have some actual correct points in that video I linked. That many guns are scaled up 9mm for .40 cal and there have been some bad malfunctions from some of those designs.

Also, because a pistol's barrel is so small, the actual terminal ballistics seen from a 9mm, .40, .45 acp, .357 or even a good .380 hollow point are negligible in difference. If we talking ball ammo only then the bigger rounds make bigger holes. If we are talking all modern hollow point defensive rounds the size of the wound channels are very hard to tell. I've seen 9mm hollow points make bigger wound channels than .45 acp hollow points for example on ballistc gel.

Since the damage is roughly the same for basically all those calibers, I go with the 9mm for my caliber of choice. The recoil is lighter than .40 which means follow on shots are more accurate, and the round is more fun to shoot at the range over longer time frames. 9mm is cheaper to shoot, even in the current gun market. And in a SHTF scenario, 9mm is common enough that if I had to scrounge for ammo, the chances of finding 9mm is much higher than other calibers.

Those are the main reasons I personally prefer 9mm over .40. Also, I like .45 acp, but only because it's subsonic. So if you need a nice pistol round for quiet work for some reason in a SHTF scenario then that would be the round to go with and still get the job done over something like a .22lr which also comes in subsonic. While .22lr can be quite lethal, a .45acp is definitely going to make a bigger wound channel.

 

[irishScott]

Sorry, I know Yeager is an idiot, but he does have some actual correct points in that video I linked. That many guns are scaled up 9mm for .40 cal and there have been some bad malfunctions from some of those designs.

Also, because a pistol's barrel is so small, the actual terminal ballistics seen from a 9mm, .40, .45 acp, .357 or even a good .380 hollow point are negligible in difference. If we talking ball ammo only then the bigger rounds make bigger holes. If we are talking all modern hollow point defensive rounds the size of the wound channels are very hard to tell. I've seen 9mm hollow points make bigger wound channels than .45 acp hollow points for example on ballistc gel.

Since the damage is roughly the same for basically all those calibers, I go with the 9mm for my caliber of choice. The recoil is lighter than .40 which means follow on shots are more accurate, and the round is more fun to shoot at the range over longer time frames. 9mm is cheaper to shoot, even in the current gun market. And in a SHTF scenario, 9mm is common enough that if I had to scrounge for ammo, the chances of finding 9mm is much higher than other calibers.

Those are the main reasons I personally prefer 9mm over .40. Also, I like .45 acp, but only because it's subsonic. So if you need a nice pistol round for quiet work for some reason in a SHTF scenario then that would be the round to go with and still get the job done over something like a .22lr which also comes in subsonic. While .22lr can be quite lethal, a .45acp is definitely going to make a bigger wound channel.

So to avoid apples-to-oranges comparisons, you're saying that if I take a standard pressure 9mm Gold Dot and a standard pressure 45 ACP gold dot, they're going to produce roughly the same size wound channel? I highly doubt that. Also note that permanent wound channels are not the only arbiter of ballistic performance. A 45 ACP will deliver substantially more energy to the target than a comparable 9mm. The extra shock of that energy will do damage even if it doesn't directly transfer into a larger permanent wound channel.

Now granted the differences might be "close" from a certain perspective, but in my mind that extra fraction of an inch of the .45's wound channel as well as the extra shock of energy delivered to target could make a vital difference in a lethal encounter.

Not that the 9mm isn't a capable round, but saying that 9mm, .40, and .45 produce the same ballistic performance is... wrong.

 

[BladeVenom]

And in a SHTF scenario, 9mm is common enough that if I had to scrounge for ammo, the chances of finding 9mm is much higher than other calibers.

The recent ammo shortage has proven that 9mm ammo will be the first to disappear. It's what everyone with a gun will be looking for.

 

[irishScott]

The recent ammo shortage has proven that 9mm ammo will be the first to disappear. It's what everyone with a gun will be looking for.

Time to stock up on .50 GI.

 

[Nintendesert]

Remind me to never bad mouth a Glock. Daaamn. I've never seen such a level of butthurtness before over a foreign gun brand.

 

[HumblePie]

The recent ammo shortage has proven that 9mm ammo will be the first to disappear. It's what everyone with a gun will be looking for.

From store shelve when a market SHTF scenario hits. Not an actual SHTF scenario. Say something stupid happens like NK actually got some missiles into orbit that we thought was just another satellite. Drops them down on a ballistic trajectory into the US. Kills lots of people. They or another country see the devastation and like wolves decide to send an advanced invasion force to test what has survived first before full scale invasion. While the 9mm on the store shelves might be hard to find, I pretty sure I can walk into garages of empty homes and find some if need be. Like I said, true SHTF scenarios where for some reason people are dying and society is falling a bit for whatever reason.

9mm if I have to scrounge for it will be the more common round to find.

 

[Nintendesert]

Just get a handgun chambered in 300 Win mag, that stuff is always on the shelf.

 

[HumblePie]

So to avoid apples-to-oranges comparisons, you're saying that if I take a standard pressure 9mm Gold Dot and a standard pressure 45 ACP gold dot, they're going to produce roughly the same size wound channel? I highly doubt that. Also note that permanent wound channels are not the only arbiter of ballistic performance. A 45 ACP will deliver substantially more energy to the target than a comparable 9mm. The extra shock of that energy will do damage even if it doesn't directly transfer into a larger permanent wound channel.

Now granted the differences might be "close" from a certain perspective, but in my mind that extra fraction of an inch of the .45's wound channel as well as the extra shock of energy delivered to target could make a vital difference in a lethal encounter.

Not that the 9mm isn't a capable round, but saying that 9mm, .40, and .45 produce the same ballistic performance is... wrong.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Again, plenty of ballistic tests out there to show this. From many sources on the internet. Here is a video of one such test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=eJKZO71mEns&v=gisORlD3cDg

There are plenty more like it. As well as great sights showing plenty of pictures of the terminal ballistics between any modern 9mm hollow point and other various calibers of hollow points.

Also the main reason is the end energy. 9mm is a faster round than a 45 acp. The 45 acp is bigger, but slower. Force = Mass x Acceleration. The 9mm has a little less mass, but far more acceleration. The end energy is very close between the two.

The other main reason why the terminal ballistics being the same between the 45 and 9mm is the spread of the petals on the hollow point. The 9mm is a little bit more of an elongated round than 45. When those petals spread, the actual diameter of many 9mm hollow points is actually greater than many 45 acp hollow points. That spread of the hollow point and it's ability to pull with it while it spins additional tissue while it is passing through a body is what causes the additional damage over a hard ball round.

If we are talking hard ball ammo only, the bigger the bullet the bigger the hole. How much a bigger of a hole? Only a millimeter in difference really, but still bigger. If we are talking hollow points, then the bigger the petal spread while maintain integrity of the petal, the total tumbling amount of the bullet, and the energy delivered is going to cause far more damage.

This guy talks a bit more about that as well as presenting the Brass Fetcher Ballistic wound channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7JxF4TYJps

 

[irishScott]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Again, plenty of ballistic tests out there to show this. From many sources on the internet. Here is a video of one such test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=eJKZO71mEns&v=gisORlD3cDg

There are plenty more like it. As well as great sights showing plenty of pictures of the terminal ballistics between any modern 9mm hollow point and other various calibers of hollow points.

Also the main reason is the end energy. 9mm is a faster round than a 45 acp. The 45 acp is bigger, but slower. Force = Mass x Acceleration. The 9mm has a little less mass, but far more acceleration. The end energy is very close between the two.

The comparison I used was TNOutdoors9's gold dot tests. While the wound channels are close, it's clear the .45 ACP's channel is bigger, and that the temporary wound channel (see discoloration of the gel around the permanent channel) is far larger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frFfF-hWpxk&list=PL47112947DB1DE491&index=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFQgP30Lao&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF&index=4

As for energy, we're not debating principles but discussing known quantities.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

147 gr 9mm: 317 Ft-lbs
230 gr 45 ACP: 404 Ft-lbs

So the .45 in a standard pressure speer gold-dot delivers a slightly larger permanent wound channel and about 25% more energy into the target (which would account for the larger temporary cavity). If I had to shoot someone only once, I'd choose the .45 every time.

 

[HumblePie]

The comparison I used was TNOutdoors9's gold dot tests. While the wound channels are close, it's clear the .45 ACP's channel is slightly bigger, and that the temporary wound channel (see discoloration of the gel around the permanent channel) is far larger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frFfF-hWpxk&list=PL47112947DB1DE491&index=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFQgP30Lao&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF&index=4

As for energy, we're not debating principles but discussing known quantities.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

147 gr 9mm: 317 Ft-lbs
230 gr 45 ACP: 404 Ft-lbs

So the .45 in a standard pressure speer gold-dot delivers a slightly larger permanent wound channel and about 25% more energy into the target (which would account for the larger temporary cavity).

Modern hollow points. There have been better developments in hollow points since Speers.

Try this site.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

And watch their videos. There are plenty of other dedicated ballistic testing organizations and groups for this. The conclusion is damn near almost universal. The difference in modern hollow point ammo from .380 to .45 acp is negligible from a terminal ballistics standpoint. Hollow points are all about the amount of petal spread, petal integrity, the amount if spin of the bullet, and the amount of kinetic energy transferred through the spinning petals into the surrounding tissue to cause the big secondary wound channel.

As for hard ball, .380 is the same diameter as 9mm. .40 is 10mm in diameter. And .45 is just slightly more than 10mm. We are talking a difference of a millimeter in hole size. There is a difference in hardball ammo, but not so much in hollow points.

 

[irishScott]

Modern hollow points. There have been better developments in hollow points since Speers.

Try this site.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

And watch their videos. There are plenty of other dedicated ballistic testing organizations and groups for this. The conclusion is damn near almost universal. The difference in modern hollow point ammo from .380 to .45 acp is negligible from a terminal ballistics standpoint. Hollow points are all about the amount of petal spread, petal integrity, the amount if spin of the bullet, and the amount of kinetic energy transferred through the spinning petals into the surrounding tissue to cause the big secondary wound channel.

As for hard ball, .380 is the same diameter as 9mm. .40 is 10mm in diameter. And .45 is just slightly more than 10mm. We are talking a difference of a millimeter in hole size. There is a difference in hardball ammo, but not so much in hollow points.

Actually watching those videos just proved my point. You have to go into the +P range on a 9mm to get the same temporary cavity as a standard pressure .45 ACP.

 

[HumblePie]

Actually watching those videos just proved my point. You have to go into the +P range on a 9mm to get the same temporary cavity as a standard pressure .45 ACP.

Uhh, they used +p for the 45 acp.

It was 230gr +p 45 versus 147gr +p for 9mm. The wound channels for the two were exactly the same.

 

[BladeVenom]

Modern hollow points. There have been better developments in hollow points since Speers.

Speer Gold Dots are one of the best. I don't think the 147gr is the best option for them, but Gold Dots are a good choice.

 

[HumblePie]

Speer Gold Dots are one of the best. I don't think the 147gr is the best option for them, but Gold Dots are a good choice.

Federal HST has shown to make a bigger wound channel than Speer Gold Dots every single time. Same with Hornady Criticals. It's all about petal spread and integrity.

Here is a good page for 45 acp hollow point ammo types. It lists the path of the bullet as well showing the picture of the petals as well a the remaining weight.

http://www.stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

for .45 acp the Federal JHP P45HST1 open the most, maintain the most integrity, and retain the most weight.

Pretty much the same for 9mm

http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

Federal HST is the clear winner. Although the Speer GD is not that far behind in recovered weight and petal spread. Also the speer GD takes the +P to barely eek out over the FPS of the HST.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[HumblePie]

Wish I could find some federal HST at a reasonable price.

Definitely good stuff for a defensive round. A bit more pricey, but it's not exactly target practice ammo either.

To me, the smallest round I would go for defensive rounds would be a .380. I have that with my p238 for a reason. For an EDC defensive situation the biggest round I will go is 9mm. The guns can be made very compact, the wound channels for 9mm are similar to other bigger caliber pistol ammo, it's cheaper, recoil is a little lighter allowing for more accurate follow up shots, and guns with flush fitting mags for 9mm hold more than the bigger calibers.

Cause when it comes to taking down a bad guy, it's more about shot placement than anything else. More accurate follow on shots make for better shot placement. There are several studies that show the human ability to "zero in" while shooting. Meaning people, even people that never shot before, rapidly adapt to shooting and putting a bullet on target with follow on shots. Which means with novice shooters, the first shot may go wide, but any shots done after will be closer on target and more accurate. But recoil can make that longer to happen. Meaning more shots are needed to be on target. This also has an effect on advanced shooters as well.

 

[BladeVenom]

Federal HST has shown to make a bigger wound channel than Speer Gold Dots every single time. Same with Hornady Criticals. It's all about petal spread and integrity.

Here is a good page for 45 acp hollow point ammo types. It lists the path of the bullet as well showing the picture of the petals as well a the remaining weight.

http://www.stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

for .45 acp the Federal JHP P45HST1 open the most, maintain the most integrity, and retain the most weight.

Pretty much the same for 9mm

http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

Federal HST is the clear winner. Although the Speer GD is not that far behind in recovered weight and petal spread. Also the speer GD takes the +P to barely eek out over the FPS of the HST.

P45HST1 are +P. Just look at the velocity. P45HST2 is standard.
Hornady JHP XTP = 0.690"
Speer GD 200gr = 0.745"

 

[Pia]

Wow, very informed and informative posts from HumblePie. Thank you for putting the info out there.

I haven't personally bothered to look into terminal ballistics, but I have listened to a few experts I trust, and everything you just posted is congruent with their rules of thumb.
- With all pistol calibers, no matter what the caliber, you need to hit something vital to get an immediate stop.
- Increasing the caliber does basically nothing to your chances of a given shot hitting something vital, but an additional shot almost doubles those chances.
- Ergo, 9mm is an obvious choice. No less effective, easier to train for, cheaper, allows for lighter and more compact guns or more capacity.

Not to say that other calibers are somehow terrible. Rather, training >>>>> equipment.

 

[Nintendesert]

I'm on my phone, so gotta be brief. What's the over penetration on a 9mm JHP vs .45 ACP JHP? I'm talking standard loads and not the +P stuff.

Wound channels being near equal other factors play a big role in caliber selection.

 

[etrigan420]

I'm on my phone, so gotta be brief. What's the over penetration on a 9mm JHP vs .45 ACP JHP? I'm talking standard loads and not the +P stuff.

Wound channels being near equal other factors play a big role in caliber selection.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

[HumblePie]

Wow, very informed and informative posts from HumblePie. Thank you for putting the info out there.

I haven't personally bothered to look into terminal ballistics, but I have listened to a few experts I trust, and everything you just posted is congruent with their rules of thumb.
- With all pistol calibers, no matter what the caliber, you need to hit something vital to get an immediate stop.
- Increasing the caliber does basically nothing to your chances of a given shot hitting something vital, but an additional shot almost doubles those chances.
- Ergo, 9mm is an obvious choice. No less effective, easier to train for, cheaper, allows for lighter and more compact guns or more capacity.

Not to say that other calibers are somehow terrible. Rather, training >>>>> equipment.

Exactly. Shot placement is the most important. People have been easily killed with a .22lr with proper shot placement. People have been "dropped" with a single shot of .22lr straight away dead. It's not unheard of or impossible. But the damage a .22lr will cause into a less vital spot of the body isn't going to be nearly the same as any .380 or above pistol caliber. Which is why it's not that great of a defensive round overall. But a .22lr does allow for very rapid and very accurate follow on shots. So in the right hands, even a .22lr is very fatal for self defense.

Actually, here is a website with charts listed for various guns used in self defense situations and their lethality. Data comes from records found of shootings in news, police reports, and other public sources.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

In the site it shows that out of the ammo used for handgun ammo, the most popular is 9mm. But the most "lethal" is .22lr. Meaning when a .22lr pistol was used, the chances of kill the target with a successful hit to a vital spot was higher.

But when multiple rounds are used, the picture changes. It takes a bit more rounds from .22lr to incapacitate than a 9mm. Even .45 acp is less than 9mm for multiple shots.

.45 acp has even a greater failure to incapacitate than 9mm over all with either one shot or multiple shot scenarios.

Granted, the charts and data presented are the most inclusive of all data. And it is more a "study" than a full scientific experiment, but good trends can still be taken from it.


This site expresses the opinion of the data and charts from that previous site. Pretty much the same conclusion.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/


If you want to stop someone use a shotgun. It's going to be the most lethal. If you are using a handgun and are very accurate with the ability to maintain absolute calm in a crisis, then a .22lr might actually be a damn good round for you.

For most people a 9mm or a .357 is going to be the better choice. The 9mm might have less "incap" potential by those charts with the initial shot, but that's because of how popular the caliber is. Meaning many people use that caliber, especially novices. A novice shooter in a defensive situation is not going to have the best shot placement with the initial shot. It speaks to such in those charts. The other calibers, besides .38 special, are typically not considered "novice' calibers. Meaning most people buying their first gun are going to buy a 9mm. If they are a novice they are going shoot badly with that first shot. What is telling is that in scenario's requiring multiple shots to take someone down, the 9mm is then the most lethal of all pistol calibers. Again, this is due to the zeroing in effect and light recoil of the caliber. Allowing for more accurate and better follow on shots. Even novices after the first shot can place better and faster follow on shots with the 9mm.
Those are the trends that the data from those sites show.

Other rounds are FINE rounds and can get the job done. Even .22lr. But if looked at from an completely objective angle...

9mm is the most proliferate round. In a SHTF scenario finding ammo and guns in this caliber for pistols is going to be easiest.

Under normal market conditions, 9mm is the cheapest to train with.

9mm makes just a big a hole as any other modern defensive pistol hollow point round. The differences in the damage caused between calibers from .380 to .45 is really negligible.

The recoil from 9mm is considerably lighter than some other pistol caliber ammo. Making follow on shots more accurate and at a higher firing rate.

9mm guns typically hold far more ammo in flush fit magazines for the available handguns out there. Especially when considering compact or subcompact guns that are easy to conceal and carry.

There is a reason 9mm the world over is primary defensive round of choice. It works for the vast majority of situations out there. As a caliber that is very popular the world over, in a SHTF scenario where you find yourself in a different country for whatever reason, again 9mm is going to be much easier to scrounge for.