http://i.imgur.com/x0FlIkq.jpg
Was going to post a response, but this is pretty much it. While the spin/twist of the bullet can affect energy transfer, judging from the plots it's a fairly negligible advantage, likely due to the .45's lesser initial velocity and increased surface area. What matters is how much energy is transferred inside the human torso, not how it's transferred there. From those plots, the .45 would appear to be superior in this regard.
I'm willing to admit that 9 is a more efficient cartridge in terms of damage per $$$, material, and perhaps ammo capacity depending on the gun, but round-for-round the .45 is consistently superior IMO.
I wish I had the data, but those plots are just screenshots of youtube videos. I poked around the site but couldn't find the raw data anywhere. I'd also like to know how they got their data, as I didn't see any sensors hooked up to the ballistic gel blocks in the video.
As others have pointed out ballistic gel tests are an approximation at best. They don't take into account bones, the varying density of internal organs, or bullet path/angle. IIRC the FBI put their standard at 12 inches in part because penetration in a human body is consistently less than penetration in gel.
So we need real-world testing, and that's where the .45 has its century in the military. Not that 9 is a bad round, but it's hardly developed the legacy of the .45. Granted, it hasn't really had the chance. .45 was used in two world wars and Vietnam. 9 was used in the Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan, and I doubt pistols are used much in Afghanistan.
Not that I've seen...but pretty sure it's effective enough tooDid anyone even bring up the 5.7?
I think I prefer the original. Did anyone even bring up the 5.7?
Not that I've seen...but pretty sure it's effective enough too
Ammo is expensive and hard to find, even before this latest craze. I can get a PS90 for $800 but won't because of the ammo price and scarcity.
There's several police departments around the county that would argue that. Street performance has been underwhelming at best. I've seen a few go back to AR's after lackluster real world performance of the PS90's.
Military testing means crap. Militaries under the Geneva Convention are only allowed to use ball ammo. Where .45 acp is superior in terms of terminal ballistics to 9mm. However, .45 acp weighs a crap ton in comparison to 9mm. Which is why 5.56 is typically used since the round is designed to pitch and tumble more to cause bigger wound channels despite being "ball" ammo bullets. That pitching, yawing, and tumbling by a 5.56 round is what causes the increased damage.
Good real world studies are taking from accounts of actual hollow point defensive rounds used on human targets in the civilian world. There is plenty of that.
The trick is comparing MODERN and I can't stress that enough, hollow points. Going back to data in the 90's or earlier is clearly not going to be an accurate representation.
Slightly older 9mm hollow points were not nearly as effective as more recent offerings. The technology has actually made several leaps and bounds. Previous 9mm rounds had problems with expansion, and more so when too much loose clothing got stuck in the expanding petals. The petals lost integrity more. So in a sense, 9mm were inferior in every way to the damage caused by any .45 acp round. This was a very true statement for a long time. The problem with looking up info in the internet is looking at the time frame the information is coming from. I can find tons of tests where they show the .45 acp superior in every way to any 9mm round. But they info is 10-15 years old. Great info at the time, but certainly out dated. More recent info, like the links and videos I've shown thus far, show more recent tests with more recent technology. The newer 9mm hollow point rounds have made massive leaps in performance. So much so they are on par with any of the .45 acp rounds.
With modern ammo as it currently is, the 9mm hollow point is about equal in trauma caused as .45 acp. But has the advantages of being more proliferate, cheaper, less recoil, more accurate follow up shots in a rapid fire scenario, and lighter to carry if one needs to carry extra rounds in a SHTF scenario. The fire arms can be made smaller, easier to conceal, and cheaper as well.
Alright, let's look at modern ammo. Specifically Cor-bon Powerball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HMmbtDFR5qo#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed9u6_sHgas&feature=player_embedded
If would seem to take the .45 ACP's slight native advantage and multiply it, with the .45 version having close to 60 ft-lbs more peak energy at what might be considered the ideal point to release it (about 2.5" in).
As I said, I agree that 9mm is the more efficient cartridge, just that the .45, modern loads or not, has significantly (10%+, depending on rounds) superior performance on a round-per-round basis.
Frankly most people won't need 17 rounds in self defense, they likely won't need more than 10, or even 6. In those circumstances, I'd want every marginal performance gain I could get.
Anyone have an LC9 they can review?
Is there a reason you chose the powerball? I'm just wondering because, personally, I consider it one of the worse rounds you can choose for self defense.
How many world wars has .40 fought?
But yeah, at the end of the day whatever we shoot, be it with .9, .40, .45, whatever, is likely going to die rather quickly. We're just debating about what kills faster than what.
How many world wars have there been since 1990?
No but theres literally thousands all over the web.
Hickock45 has several videos with it. http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45/videos
Indeed. I was heavily intrigued by his recent Boberg XR9 video. Been reading about it for some time, but this is the first time I've seen it shot. Pricey, but looks pretty sweet overall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckyUmldwiDo
Get a Taurus Judge and have both! D:
Eewwwwww. Taurus. EEwwwwwwwwww.
As for the FiveSeven, I want one...just not until ammo is available at better pricing.
Ammo is expensive and hard to find, even before this latest craze. I can get a PS90 for $800 but won't because of the ammo price and scarcity.
There's several police departments around the county that would argue that. Street performance has been underwhelming at best. I've seen a few go back to AR's after lackluster real world performance of the PS90's.
I want a PS90 to SBR so I can own the Stargate Gun. That + a Mini-14 and CX-4 and I'll bet set for my sci-fi collection.
Leave Taurus alone
And if you want to see something comparable to the 5.7 check out .22 TCM
One of these days I'll actually be able to go shoot mine...
No. I don't leave shitty companies alone. Taurus is among the names I advise people not fund. Same with Marlin these days.
Ammo is expensive and hard to find, even before this latest craze. I can get a PS90 for $800 but won't because of the ammo price and scarcity.
No. I don't leave shitty companies alone. Taurus is among the names I advise people not fund. Same with Marlin these days.