YAGT: OMG I love guns

[BladeVenom]

Safety tip of the day, if your firearm or grenade launcher isn't working, don't look down the barrel and bang it on the ground. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c4a_1382633588

 

[pontifex]

Got bored, so I made this

magnet?

 

[onza]

magnet?

Neodymium magnet - yep

 

[Nebor]

I didn't mean to be snarky. 1911s are just more expensive than modern pistols on the whole. $500 will buy only a very modest 1911 (whereas it will buy an excellent, bombproof polymer gun like a Glock). $1,000 will buy a midrange 1911 like a Kimber or Springfield. $1,500 will buy what I'd consider a high-end production 1911, like a Springfield TRP. If you want a truly high-end 1911, like a Les Baer, Ed Brown or Wilson Combat, you're talking $2,000 to get your foot in the door, and can easily spend $3-4K or more. Personally I am a Glock guy, but I totally get the appeal of the 1911.

I've got several Kimbers, a couple Ed Brown's and a Wilson Combat. None of them changed my mind about 1911s. They've all had failures, whereas none of my modern polymer pistols have ever had one (and I have quite a few.) I had a new Walther PPS First Edition that would stovepipe, but I lost it, so it doesn't count anymore. :biggrin:

 

[Bartman39]

Well used some of the money from the sale of the 50 bmg and bought this...

http://www.ruger.com/products/sr762/index.html

Will be here possibly before the weekend...:awe:

 

[HumblePie]

That assumes the parts on your $400 gun are made of materials of similar quality to a high-end custom 1911 (which they aren't), and that hand matching and fitting of parts on high-end custom 1911 has no benefit (which isn't true). You have what is, no doubt, a perfectly adequate, cheap, Turkish gun which cannot compare favorably in any meaningful respect to something like a garden-variety Springfield or Colt, much less a Baer, Wilson Combat or Ed Brown. Moreover, those guns will all hold their value better and will in some cases appreciate in value over time, whereas yours will always remain what it is - a very inexpensive 1911 that the market doesn't particularly value.

None of that means you shouldn't enjoy your Girsan or that it isn't perfectly adequate, but saying it is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a high-end 1911 is just silly.

And yeah, Taurus sucks, for the most part.

LOL what?? You are trying to bring in steel to the equation? I know steels my man. I have tons of high end custom swords made from specific steels I want and same with many custom knives.

Yes there are cheap guns made from basically pot metal that barely have the strength needed to be "safe" to fire for the most part. There certainly are bady machined guns with sloppy tolerances, and just poor attention to detail. I promise you that my gun is not that.

Do you think there is some magical formula that is involved with making a 100+ year old design gun that automatically makes it command a huge price tag? Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is not. Using good steel and good CNC machines, one can make very nice 1911's for a decent price.

Do you know what commands the higher price of 1911's? It's the hand fitting. 1911's have more "parts" that have to integrate together than more modern guns. They each have specified tolerances to the individual parts. Knowing how to "tune" the gun to a certain performance response is the ONLY thing you are paying for, along with the brand name, when you are buying a high priced gun. That's it.

If a gun is made with the proper materials, in the proper way, with a good CNC machine, one can do that same tuning to their own firearm if they wish. Which is what I certainly did. It's not magic. It's not even all that hard to do.

Are there Turkish guns that have been absolute crap? Sure, but there are also some that absolutely stellar in quality. Same can be said for products of any sort sold anywhere. You are going to have good quality and bad quality makers of any product. Using a bigotted prejudice approach to denounce all firearms because they are made by "Turks" or "Mexicans" or some other nationality is just simply being racist on your part. If you can express why, Girsan for example, as a company makes inferior 1911's then that is one thing. Saying it's crap because it is made by Turks is just being a racist bigot on your part.

Now do some countries tend to have more inferior products produced for various reasons? Yep. Take Japan as an example. Sony, Samsung, Mitsubishi and others are all considered excellent producers of electronic goods. However, there was a time that anything that came from Japan of electronic nature was pure junk. It was wise to be wary of buying anything from Japan at one time.

Similar can be said of Chinese products, especially when it comes to knockoffs. But I have seen some stellar quality Chinese products of various product lines that rival the quality level of those same products made anywhere else in the world.

It takes research, diligence, and some degree of risk taking (if you are one of the first to try) to determine if a product is quality or not.

I promise you that there are quality level 1911's that don't cost an arm and a leg to own. They may not be "hand tuned" by someone with a "name" in the business, but that doesn't mean they are crap or not even as good as a hand tuned 1911.

 

[HumblePie]

For reference I have about 7000+ rounds down my 1911 and not a single hiccup after I changed out the original leaf spring that was interacting badly with some magazines I had. Even then, I was only having the last shot with a failure to feed on a couple of magazines (not the original ACT mags I got with the firearm). It happened a few times. I looked into what the cause may be, figured out I had a slightly miss bent leaf spring (I'm thinking the person that hand assembled mine may have bent it when putting on the main spring housing). I switched it out and it has run fine with out a single problem since in about 6500+ rounds. It looks good, runs well, and I HAVE compared it against guns that command higher dollar values. Even going so far as to strip those higher priced guns and compare them completely part for part.

 

[shortylickens]

Is there anything shorter than an M4 that still qualifies as a rifle?

 

[coxmaster]

Is there anything shorter than an M4 that still qualifies as a rifle?

Shorter in what way? Barrel length or total length?

 

[shortylickens]

Shorter in what way? Barrel length or total length?

both
either

 

[schneiderguy]

both
either

A short barrel AK with a folding stock is about as short as you'll get for a rifle.

 

[HumblePie]

Is there anything shorter than an M4 that still qualifies as a rifle?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-rifle.html

The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

So it is a weapon designed to always be fired from the "shoulder" at all times. Weapons not designed to be fired from the shoulder are not rifles. A rifle has a minimum non classification barrel length of 16.5 inches. Anything shorter is a Class III "dangerous weapon" that is considered a short barreled rifle.

Now there are technically legal loop holes around all that right now. Strangely enough. One can get AR or AK pistols. These are the receiver from an AK or AR with a very short barrel but no stock. With no stock, they are designed to be fired 1 handed. Thus they are a pistol. Some come with "stabilizing" stumps that are designed to allow the pistol to be pushing into the bicep or chest, but not the shoulder, while firing.

This picture is an example of an AR pistol with such a stabilizing stump.

There is a new recent development that allows one to affix a forearm brace to the stump for more stability when firing 1 handed.

The intent and design of the firearm and the accessories is for helping to stabilize the "pistol" when used 1 handed. However, there are no laws surrounding actual personal use of the firearm and accessories. So if you want to purchase an AR pistol with stump and brace but press them against your shoulder while firing there is nothing currently illegal with that. Although you are not following the design of those products and using them in a fashion outside the the intended design is done so at your own risk to injury. As such I am not advocating usage as such.

But for point of argument sake. If you want to take a Glock pistol and press it against your shoulder to fire the weapon there is nothing illegal about doing so, although you just attempted to fire the weapon as you would a rifle. That doesn't make the Glock a rifle because you decide to shoot it stupidly against your shoulder. Speaking of which, I wouldn't advise that either since it will probably cause injury to yourself to do so.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

LOL what?? You are trying to bring in steel to the equation? I know steels my man. I have tons of high end custom swords made from specific steels I want and same with many custom knives.

Yes, I will bring steel into the equation. I too know my steels as I am a bit of a knife collector - I have both ZDP-189 and CPM S30V on my person as I write this!

Since you know steels so well, you know that all steels are not the same. This is admittedly more immediately noticeable with a knife than with a gun, but steel choice can make a dramatic difference in initial cost and long-term longevity and long-tem accuracy. A Springfield Professional or an Ed Brown uses 4340 tool steel for its hammer and sear, and a 416 stainless barrel. What steels are used for these items on your 1911? I expect the maker doesn't say, and there is no way a $400 1911 has a 416 stainless barrel.

 

[coxmaster]

both
either

Build an SBR and you can have as short of a rifle as you want.

Otherwise, you've got to stick with 16" of barrel so it will only get so short.

That being said, my AK is only 25" when folded, which is pretty damn short for a 16" barrel rifle.

 

[coxmaster]

So it is a weapon designed to always be fired from the "shoulder" at all times. Weapons not designed to be fired from the shoulder are not rifles. A rifle has a minimum non classification barrel length of 16.5 inches. Anything shorter is a Class III "dangerous weapon" that is considered a short barreled rifle.

Just a few things to point out.. A rifle must have a 16" barrel, not 16.5". Also there is no such thing as a Class III weapon, SBRs and other similar items are Title II weaspons. Class III is a tax paid by a dealer, just a pet peeve but it drives me crazy when people use that term completely incorrectly.

Now there are technically legal loop holes around all that right now. Strangely enough. One can get AR or AK pistols. These are the receiver from an AK or AR with a very short barrel but no stock. With no stock, they are designed to be fired 1 handed. Thus they are a pistol. Some come with "stabilizing" stumps that are designed to allow the pistol to be pushing into the bicep or chest, but not the shoulder, while firing.

None of those are loop holes in any way. The law says if it doesn't have a shoulder stock then it isn't a rifle, thus AR and AKs without stocks are in fact, pistols. Not a loophole at all.

 

[rudeguy]

Yes, I will bring steel into the equation. I too know my steels as I am a bit of a knife collector - I have both ZDP-189 and CPM S30V on my person as I write this!

Since you know steels so well, you know that all steels are not the same. This is admittedly more immediately noticeable with a knife than with a gun, but steel choice can make a dramatic difference in initial cost and long-term longevity and long-tem accuracy. A Springfield Professional or an Ed Brown uses 4340 tool steel for its hammer and sear, and a 416 stainless barrel. What steels are used for these items on your 1911? I expect the maker doesn't say, and there is no way a $400 1911 has a 416 stainless barrel.

Wow..I never knew there were steel snobs :biggrin:

Just kidding. I totally agree. I have a couple cheap knives that I would not trust with anything more than their current box opening duties. Oddly...I am ok with plastic though...

 

[HumblePie]

Just a few things to point out.. A rifle must have a 16" barrel, not 16.5". Also there is no such thing as a Class III weapon, SBRs and other similar items are Title II weaspons. Class III is a tax paid by a dealer, just a pet peeve but it drives me crazy when people use that term completely incorrectly.




None of those are loop holes in any way. The law says if it doesn't have a shoulder stock then it isn't a rifle, thus AR and AKs without stocks are in fact, pistols. Not a loophole at all.

Um SBR's have to be sold by someone with a class 3 license (when sold as retail). So calling them class 3 weapons isn't too far off.

As for the loophole, you don't understand the definition of that word do you? 1.
an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules.

The law for denoting short barrel rifles was to prevent easy access to them a weapons. That was the intent of the law. The law was drawn up with specific definitions and many laws after being defined have gray areas. Pistols, while not being designed to fire from the shoulder, can certainly be done so. Most pistols are certainly not safe to be fired from the shoulder. Which is why no one usually fires their pistol from the shoulder. But by attaching a device to the backside of the pistol that allows it to be strapped to the forearm for support, that device could allow a pistol to be buttressed against a shoulder instead. Hence getting around the original intent of the law which is to keep short barrel rifles from being easily accessible. With the forearm brace, one can fire a pistol like a rifle without as much likelihood of injury.

It is a loophole if the intent of the law was to prevent short barrel guns that can be fired safely from the shoulder from being readily accessible. Of course, all it takes is modification to that law that prevents any form of equipment from being attached to a pistol that may allow it to be fired like a rifle without undue risk of injury to the operator.

 

[Svnla]

A short barrel AK with a folding stock is about as short as you'll get for a rifle.

What about this? Full size bullets (7.62 x 39) in 30 rounds mags for a small little thing = http://www.classicfirearms.com/hand-guns/papm92pv

I am not a big fan but it was so cute and not too expensive but it is out of stock for now.

 

[coxmaster]

Um SBR's have to be sold by someone with a class 3 license (when sold as retail). So calling them class 3 weapons isn't too far off.

There is no such thing as a class 3 license, even for dealers. The dealer simply needs to hold an FFL and pay their SOT class 3 tax.

I know it seems pedantic but I deal with this all too frequently. Class 3 is a tax, not a license, or permit, or anything else. It drives me insane.


As for the "loophole".. I would call the sig arm brace a loophole, but a standard AR pistol or AK pistol isn't really at all since firing one from the shoulder definitely isn't easy or painless

 

[Tiamat]

Is there anything shorter than an M4 that still qualifies as a rifle?

Iwi tavor and other bullpups are as short as they get in a form that is usable as a rifle without needing a tax stamp. Folding stocks might be an inch shorter when not in use, but they usually have to be deployed to be used as a rifle, and thus they become longer than bullpups.

 

[HumblePie]

There is no such thing as a class 3 license, even for dealers. The dealer simply needs to hold an FFL and pay their SOT class 3 tax.

I know it seems pedantic but I deal with this all too frequently. Class 3 is a tax, not a license, or permit, or anything else. It drives me insane.


As for the "loophole".. I would call the sig arm brace a loophole, but a standard AR pistol or AK pistol isn't really at all since firing one from the shoulder definitely isn't easy or painless

Class 3 tax, license, whatever... It is a firearm category that requires a class 3 of something from the ATF. Thus it is easy to call SBR's class 3 guns.

 

[Ns1]

Wow..I never knew there were steel snobs :biggrin:

srsly!

 

[rudeguy]

srsly!

do you remember the compass thread?

People were getting seriously worked up about compasses!

Blew my mind.

 

[HumblePie]

As for other brand guns...

Don Vito you do realize that the Rock Island Armory 1911's are made from the exact same bar stock steel and from the exact same machines that Colt has always made 1911's from? Being serious here because those machines were ported to the phillipines and left there after world war 2. They've been making 1911's there for a long time.

The Girsan, Tisas, and Regent (all turkish) are all made to the same colt NATO approved standard. All have major military and police contracts. All had to pass several very stringent tests of durability, workmanship, and other standards that many of the higher priced 1911's never had to pass such as Kimber.

The only thing I hate about the Girsan 1911 is having to buy them only through Buds. Ugh.

 

[shortylickens]

Fuck it.
I bought the cheetah off Gun broker.
Nickle, (which I prefer) and heavily used but with the money saved on such a bargain I'll be able to take it to the shop and have a full cleaning and op test.