YAGT: OMG I love guns

[MtnMan]

That's wrong. Leave a spring compressed, and it will absolutely get weaker.

I can't believe anyone would even question it. Well known fact.

Now whether it will lose enough to matter is a different issue, but they absolutely get weaker if you leave them compressed.

My guess is, they're a little stronger than necessary to begin with, so it won't matter.

Just like your vehicle in the driveway, sinking lower every day. :whiste:

 

[rudeguy]

Pacfan, I guess. Had to scroll back through the legal-talk and check, heh.

Re-reading, I guess he really just wants a 1911 to just have it. Maybe shoot recreationally every once in while. I just remembered 'not experienced with handguns' and 'CCW' and wondered why everyone was going with the idea of a 1911.

I mean (IMO) if it's a newer 1911, it's just a gun. I can understand wanting an older model for more 'collector' purposes; but a new one just becomes a firearm with a purpose, and if there is any intent to have it for more than recreational target shooting,a 1911's not a great first gun. I'd move on a generation and go with at least a Hi-Power or a derivative thereof.

You don't have to go all-polymer striker fire or something. For the same money as a budget 1911 (or less), there are plenty of similarly-functioning (notably, an external safety and a decent single-action trigger) metal-framed double-stack 9's.

Wanted to throw that out there, is all.

Gotcha. I thought you were talking to me and I got really confused.

He wants one more for the history aspect. I'm thinking about one for carry, which is why I asked for input on one (hint).

 

[velillen]

Gotcha. I thought you were talking to me and I got really confused.

He wants one more for the history aspect. I'm thinking about one for carry, which is why I asked for input on one (hint).

I cant speak for that particular RIA 1911 but i own the 1911 in 10mm and it works perfect.

 

[boomhower]

What in the world would I need 15 rounds of anything for?

I can't conceive of a situation in which I'd need that many rounds to protect myself or someone else. If I get to the point to where I need to shoot a gun at someone, one or two rounds is all it's going to take, one way or another.

Multiple assailant attacks have gotten more and more common, two or three rounds isn't going to cut it. Then take into account your decrease in accuracy under high stress. Studies show an average of a 50% decrease. Unless it's a gut shot, which isn't going to stop the assailant anyways, chances of getting it done in two shots is marginal at best.

 

[olds]

What in the world would I need 15 rounds of anything for?

I can't conceive of a situation in which I'd need that many rounds to protect myself or someone else. If I get to the point to where I need to shoot a gun at someone, one or two rounds is all it's going to take, one way or another.

Well Annie Oakley, what if the adrenaline causes you to miss or there are 8 home invaders? And to think one or two rounds is all it takes to stop a person is naive at best. Don't get your gun training from movies.
(boomer posted as I was typing)

 

[Tiamat]

That's wrong. Leave a spring compressed, and it will absolutely get weaker.

I can't believe anyone would even question it. Well known fact.

Now whether it will lose enough to matter is a different issue, but they absolutely get weaker if you leave them compressed.

My guess is, they're a little stronger than necessary to begin with, so it won't matter.

I'm willing to learn, please post a link? My understanding is that spring fatigue only occurs under cycling of the spring. Spring creep may occur with over compression, over extension, and extreme heat. My assumption is that the magazine manufacturer chooses an appropriate spring well within the capacity of the magazine so that the first two causes of creep are moot. I haven't been able to find any empirical evidence comparing same magazines against each other over an extended period of time where one set was unloaded and another loaded. My Google searches all come up with opinions similar to what I posted. :-\

 

[rudeguy]

What in the world would I need 15 rounds of anything for?

I can't conceive of a situation in which I'd need that many rounds to protect myself or someone else. If I get to the point to where I need to shoot a gun at someone, one or two rounds is all it's going to take, one way or another.

Please don't carry.

Ever

 

[Fenixgoon]

That's wrong. Leave a spring compressed, and it will absolutely get weaker.

I can't believe anyone would even question it. Well known fact.

Now whether it will lose enough to matter is a different issue, but they absolutely get weaker if you leave them compressed.

My guess is, they're a little stronger than necessary to begin with, so it won't matter.

please explain this phenomenon, because i have never heard of it.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

please explain this phenomenon, because i have never heard of it.

Nowadays the consensus in the industry is that springs do not fatigue meaningfully from being under steady compression, even after years. Obviously coil springs are used under heavy, steady compression in automotive and other industrial applications (like construction equipment) and last for years and years.

 

[olds]

Nowadays the consensus in the industry is that springs do not fatigue meaningfully from being under steady compression, even after years. ....

This.

 

[alkemyst]

please explain this phenomenon, because i have never heard of it.

This is a common debate on many gun forums.

The truth is a spring can remain indefinitely compressed or expanded and not wear, it's cycling the spring that wears it out.

Now, what is a worn out spring is a matter of debate among gun fanatics. Some say even as little as 100 full cycles is when they'd replace a mag they wanted to trust their life with.

 

[Fenixgoon]

This is a common debate on many gun forums.

The truth is a spring can remain indefinitely compressed or expanded and not wear, it's cycling the spring that wears it out.

Now, what is a worn out spring is a matter of debate among gun fanatics. Some say even as little as 100 full cycles is when they'd replace a mag they wanted to trust their life with.

i wanted to hear the rationale before destroying it

<--- metallurgist

 

[Pacfanweb]

Just like your vehicle in the driveway, sinking lower every day. :whiste:

Only to a point, but vehicles do lose ride height over the years.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Well Annie Oakley, what if the adrenaline causes you to miss or there are 8 home invaders? And to think one or two rounds is all it takes to stop a person is naive at best. Don't get your gun training from movies.
(boomer posted as I was typing)

If you shoot at a home invader, their ass is running for the door, immediately. It would have to be on hell of a unique situation where they did not. You don't have to hit them. Doesn't matter how many there are.

Fire at them, they're gone.

You can always come up with some ridiculous situation that has happened about once ever to justify more, more, more, but the overwhelming odds say your standard clip is FAR more than enough. Why stop at 8 invaders? Hell, maybe they stole a Bradley from the local Guard armory, I think I need a tank to be sure.

 

[phucheneh]

I think everyone pretty much agrees. To disagree.

But it's semantics. My only objection is saying a compressed spring suffers no ill effects...I think that would be phsyics-defying.

But does being held in compression hurt the spring enough to ever cause a functional issue with the mag? No, not in a quality mag (like MEC-GAR or other widely-known common OEM suppliers). There would have to be other factors (dirt, rust, ect) at play in the mag's failure to work properly.

Just don't tell a picky, analytical dick like me that holding a spring at it's maximum compression does literally nothing to it. It's something. Just not anything that matters in practical application.



Anyway...here's an attempt at changing subjects: anyone do any refinish work on their firearms? I just HAVE to tinker with shit; it is commonly my downfall. But I know I can do assembly/disassembly stuff, and minor mods.

However, I just attempted to strip and polish an aluminum pistol frame and failed epicly. When I finally started getting it clean of the softer (but resilient) paint on top, I then encountered some other process underneath. Long story short, I got some shiny edges, but truly getting the whole thing to bare metal proved futile.

For now, I have accepted defeat and am baking some spraypaint onto it. As a 'good enough for now' coverup of the horrorshow I created. Looking at eventually going with one of two options. 1) Send it out for durakote, cerakote, or something else affordable. I dunno which processes work with aluminum...can it be blued of nickeled? 2) Try polishing again with better equipment...bead blaster? I'm sure that will remove any paint/paint-like coating, but I suspect I will still be left with the yellowish etching or whatever that is underneath it.

I tend to get in over my head on things. It's fun sometimes.

 

[phucheneh]

Pacfan, 'shoot to scare' talk does not make your case better.

Personally, I think 6-8 round guns are fine for carry; but I'd be doing it as a tradeoff to get a very light, concealable gun. I would never plan to fire one or two rounds. My reflexive action for firing on a direct threat at a typical self-defense distance would be to dump controlled fire into him until he hits the ground. Even with a .45, that's going to be 3-4 rounds or more. With a decently-sized 9mm, I might double that.

It's just hard to guess at what will happen in a situation you hope you're never in. I may freak out an dump a whole mag. I may fire much less than I think I would. Point being; err on the side of caution. Your reactions under stress are going to be somewhat unknown, and the specifics of the situation can, at best, be expressed in general probabilities.

I'd like to be prepared for as much of that as I can. For me, that means a gun I feel very in control of with as much ammo as I can reasonably have.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I'm willing to learn, please post a link? My understanding is that spring fatigue only occurs under cycling of the spring. Spring creep may occur with over compression, over extension, and extreme heat. My assumption is that the magazine manufacturer chooses an appropriate spring well within the capacity of the magazine so that the first two causes of creep are moot. I haven't been able to find any empirical evidence comparing same magazines against each other over an extended period of time where one set was unloaded and another loaded. My Google searches all come up with opinions similar to what I posted. :-\

Your understanding is the correct one. Assuming no other changes (in say temperature, corrosive materials being present and such) a compressed spring will last forever. It wears by being extended and compressed. I've fired magazines that have been loaded in ammo cans for 40 years. They work fine.

This is just one of those myths. Like the one that an aluminum framed gun will wear within a few thousand rounds...

 

[clamum]

If you shoot at a home invader, their ass is running for the door, immediately. It would have to be on hell of a unique situation where they did not. You don't have to hit them. Doesn't matter how many there are.

Fire at them, they're gone.

You can always come up with some ridiculous situation that has happened about once ever to justify more, more, more, but the overwhelming odds say your standard clip is FAR more than enough. Why stop at 8 invaders? Hell, maybe they stole a Bradley from the local Guard armory, I think I need a tank to be sure.

I just read in this month's "American Rifleman" about a middle-later aged woman having to fire several times at an assailant before they decided to flee. I hope I'm not getting trolled here; between this and your position on spring wear you're pretty frickin clueless man.

Oh, and it's "magazine," not "clip." Like I said...

 

[Svnla]

Went to Academy and Walmart today.

Academy: Glock 9mm 33 rounds magazine for $50 and 9mm 15 rounds magazine for $30. Total price - $85.xx after sale tax. Not great but finally I was able to get extra magazines (hi cap). Internet stores are still out of stock.

Walmart: Colt 6920 Magpul Edition AR15 for $1167 or about $1266.xx after sale tax. The rifle was nice and all (Magpul stock, magazine, and furniture) but I will wait for the next 2nd Amendment sale for no sale tax on guns and ammo.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I just read in this month's "American Rifleman" about a middle-later aged woman having to fire several times at an assailant before they decided to flee. I hope I'm not getting trolled here; between this and your position on spring wear you're pretty frickin clueless man.

You apparently have a problem with reading comprehension.

I said there is no way a spring can stay compressed and not lose a LITTLE pressure. That is a fact. Also said whether the slight pressure loss MATTERS is a different thing.

Technically speaking, a spring WILL lose some pressure. And that is 100% correct. And I said it also probably doesn't matter, because the manufacturer probably figured that into the spring when it was designed, so when new it's slightly stronger than necessary, so when it 'fades' slightly, it's still within tolerance.

So I never, ever said or implied that the spring will just sit there and keep getting weaker. Only that technically speaking, they DO lose at least a little pressure. That's it.

My actual quote, so you don't think I'm misrepresenting what I originally posted:

Now whether it will lose enough to matter is a different issue, but they absolutely get weaker if you leave them compressed.

My guess is, they're a little stronger than necessary to begin with, so it won't matter.

 

[HumblePie]

Pacfanweb

Springs you buy in a mag are precompressed and designed as new to fit ideally in a magazine without ever going bad. The springs areeither ina state of mostly compressed or less compressed depending upon if the magazine is loaded ir empty. A magazine spring never goes fully compressed nor fully extemded. Modern magazines can stay fully loaded for damn near forever and not lose any additional springiness from doing so.

 

[coxmaster]

Went to Academy and Walmart today.

Academy: Glock 9mm 33 rounds magazine for $50 and 9mm 15 rounds for $30. Total price - $85.xx after sale tax. Not great but finally I was able to get extra magazines (hi cap). Internet stores are still out of stock.

Holy crap, did you seriously pay $2 per round for 9mm? I've got some pretty expensive carry ammo and it was still dramatically cheaper than that.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Pacfanweb

Springs you buy in a mag are precompressed and designed as new to fit ideally in a magazine without ever going bad. The springs areeither ina state of mostly compressed or less compressed depending upon if the magazine is loaded ir empty. A magazine spring never goes fully compressed nor fully extemded. Modern magazines can stay fully loaded for damn near forever and not lose any additional springiness from doing so.

I agree.

But they DO lose at least a LITTLE. They have to. That was my only point. A technicality, but still.

I realize that the manufacturer already thought of that and compensated for it in the spring design and they will last indefinitely in working order. Never said that wasn't the case.

 

[Svnla]

Holy crap, did you seriously pay $2 per round for 9mm? I've got some pretty expensive carry ammo and it was still dramatically cheaper than that.

I mean it was a magazine that hold 15 rounds (hi cap). I edited the sentence to make it clearer. I usually paid about $.30 per 9mm round.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Thanks, and you pretty much nailed my intentions. The CCW is mainly so I don't have to get a permit every time I want a pistol, and so I can keep a gun in the car, forgot to mention that. Gotta have a CCW if you want it concealed anywhere, not just on your person.

Depends on where you are. In WA, you can carry any gun in a car legally if it is unloaded. If it's loaded, you must be en route to the range, then it is also legal. So I can carry an unloaded gun anywhere in my car in WA. I suggest you check your actual laws; unless you're in Chicago or DC, it WILL be legal to carry an UNLOADED gun in your car.

Moreover, I restate that antique weapons are a toss up. I've seen Garands and M1 Carbines in TERRIBLE shape; 1903s from Rock Island for example are almost universally a death trap due to lack of hardening. Handle the gun before buying or buy ONLY with a 3 day inspection policy.

What in the world would I need 15 rounds of anything for?

I can't conceive of a situation in which I'd need that many rounds to protect myself or someone else. If I get to the point to where I need to shoot a gun at someone, one or two rounds is all it's going to take, one way or another.

You're a fool if you believe this. IF you're accurate, IF there's one perp, IF you don't get a dud round (I've seen them. Hit the primer once and it doesn't go. Maybe if you hit the primer again it will. Maybe it won't.) Go look up the guy who had 6 .38spl rounds in him and walked away.

When I carry my 1911, which is a Dan Wesson CCO with 7 rounds in the mag instead of 8, I always carry the gun loaded (so 7+1) and two more magazines in a pocket. It's not because I think I'll need them. It's because it's better to be prepared. If 22 rounds can't finish the job, I'm running in the opposite direction.

I'm considering carrying a FN Hi Power, which is 13 or 16 rounds per magazine...simply because of the capacity.

I agree.

But they DO lose at least a LITTLE. They have to. That was my only point. A technicality, but still.

I realize that the manufacturer already thought of that and compensated for it in the spring design and they will last indefinitely in working order. Never said that wasn't the case.

You should start quoting hard facts here. I don't mean to be insulting or demeaning, but you're going after one of the most popular myths. It's been disproven. Moreover, when talking guns, you will generally get a better response if you get terminology correct; a magazine holds and feeds ammunition. A clip simply holds it. Stripper clips and enbloc clips hold rounds. The M1 Garand has an internal magazine. AR15s, M1As, 1911s and so forth have detachable magazines (not clips.)