YAGT: OMG I love guns

[RampantAndroid]

Sorry for the double post, just saw these:

You haven't fired many 1911s have you? Under stress, I'd much rather be pulling a 4.5-5 lbs trigger a tiny fraction of an inch straight back than a 8 lb trigger over however many degrees of rotation about a pivot.

Get someone with equal experience on Glocks and 1911s. Then let them rapid fire a Glock 21 at 10 yards, and then rapid-fire a 1911. Make sure they don't slow down even a fraction for the Glock. If their groups aren't better with the 1911 I'll be surprised.

Agreed - less pull means less movement, means more accuracy. My accuracy with my glock skyrocketed with a modified trigger. Still was a terrible trigger, but WAY better.

A lot of states (like California) have strict laws on how guns operate. Meddling with them MIGHT make the gun illegal.

In CA, sneezing on your gun makes it illegal. Thanks Reagan, black panthers and nutjob liberal lawmakers. Different state, same crap as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U

 

[glenn1]

First, this is dead on:



Next up:
Weight. 1.4 lb vs 1.6 lb. Of a Glock 30. Loaded, the glock 30 takes 10 rounds. Mine takes 7.

Comfort: 1911 wins, hands down. The glocks are uncomfortable to me.

Age: the 1911 is proven reliable and lasts a long time; the glock is reliable, but plastic.

Also, comparing the CCO to a glock is...well, bad. My 1911 will outshoot a glock any day of the week. The fitting is very precise - not true of a glock. The barrel is match grade. Night sights come default, and those sights usually cost $100 or more before installation costs.

Carrying: the 1911 is slimmer, and easier to carry on my hip.

But hey, let's look at a S&W Scandium gun, it's cheaper....oh wait, only difference is less custom fitting, and a full sized mag.

I owned a glock 21. Dumped it, got a CCO.

Comparing a $1,500 plus tuned 1911 to a Glock costing a quarter that isn't really a fair contest. Comparing accuracy is ludicrous since either is likely more accurate than you're capable of shooting freehand at a competitive distance. There's plenty of guys out there who could probably outshoot your CCO with an old beater S&W 59 series or similar piece.

 

[jpeyton]

Are we really arguing about what's a better carry pistol for whom?

Seems a bit pointless, no? 1911, Glock 30, Ruger LC9, S&W 19, HK45C...and a hundred other pistols that can be carried reliably for self-defense. They all work fine as tools.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Comparing a $1,500 plus tuned 1911 to a Glock costing a quarter that isn't really a fair contest. Comparing accuracy is ludicrous since either is likely more accurate than you're capable of shooting freehand at a competitive distance. There's plenty of guys out there who could probably outshoot your CCO with an old beater S&W 59 series or similar piece.

Kimber CDP 2 for $800 then, Trebek.

Again, the accuracy is both the barrel, and the trigger. A shitty long trigger pull means you will be less accurate when firing quickly. There's a GOOD REASON my accuracy on my glock went UP when I smoothed the pull out.

As for accuracy, will a 4.25" barrel be less accurate than a comparable 5"? Sure, but not by much. But an old used 1911 with a non-match grade barrel and worn rifling, I doubt it - not if they shoot the CCO and older gun side by side.

Are we really arguing about what's a better carry pistol for whom?

Seems a bit pointless, no? 1911, Glock 30, Ruger LC9, S&W 19, HK45C...and a hundred other pistols that can be carried reliably for self-defense. They all work fine as tools.

I just want Merad to enumerate the issues with the 1911 as a platform.

 

[Kelvrick]

Kimber CDP 2 for $800 then, Trebek.

Again, the accuracy is both the barrel, and the trigger. A shitty long trigger pull means you will be less accurate when firing quickly. There's a GOOD REASON my accuracy on my glock went UP when I smoothed the pull out.

As for accuracy, will a 4.25" barrel be less accurate than a comparable 5"? Sure, but not by much. But an old used 1911 with a non-match grade barrel and worn rifling, I doubt it - not if they shoot the CCO and older gun side by side.




I just want Merad to enumerate the issues with the 1911 as a platform.

I think you're overreacting. 1911's are nice, but a lot of what you're marking up for them and against glocks are personal preference.

Looks? I'm glad you think your 1911 looks really good, but that isn't how I decide what to carry.
Safety? I won't carry a gun with a safety and I only carry DAO. Because you prefer SAO and a manual safety, you're going to say that my choice is wrong?
Accuracy? Are you really saying the accuracy between a glock and a 1911 will make the difference in a shoot at under 21 feet? Take a shot longer than that and I would think you better be saving someone's life or expect prosecution.
Comfort? Its your opinion that the glock is uncomfortable. I agree with that, but who are weto decide what people consider comfortable?

Main drawback for the 1911's? My opinion is cost and in my personal experience, more of them have problems out of the box that need to be tuned away than the plastic options, especially when you start looking at shorter versions since the stroke was originally designed for a 5" slide.

In the end, the "problem" with 1911's is that it is just a design, and which brand someone gets means they're getting that version of a 1911. Just look at mags to see how different things are.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[irishScott]

Well, I also don't know how much you modified your 1911 trigger - removing any of the pull before the break is something I've been warned off of doing. Same with reducing the pull weight, to prevent accidental firing. That said, if you were to do that, the pull would probably rival a SA revolver.

Aside from the Springfield Armory loaded package it's stock. I have over-travel adjustment, but haven't touched it yet. Don't have a trigger scale to measure the exact weight, SA manual says "match grade 5 - 6 lbs".

 

[shortylickens]

Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

Not.

Had to used beat up old handmedowns in security and they were shit. Grips are too fat for most people but we werent allowed to change them.
WORST part by far was all the MA's telling us how fucking great they were but none of those assholes carried them. They all took Sig's.

Thats like bully teenagers pushing you off Mortal Kombat (while you still got a quarter in) and saying PacMan is just as good.

Except in this case PacMan will get you killed when it breaks.

 

[irishScott]

Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

It's OK. It's an 80s design, very heavy and bulky for a 9mm by modern standards. A lot of guys get a kick out of it because it's the US military service pistol, but even that won't be true for long. The military's currently looking for a replacement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Handgun_System

Personally I'd say it's inefficient and there are better options.

 

[shortylickens]

Ummm, its already been replaced by Sig. They havent bought new Berettas in a long time.

 

[irishScott]

Ummm, its already been replaced by Sig. They havent bought new Berettas in a long time.

Since when? Last I checked the M9 was still standard issue. I know SOCOM units and some Naval units use Sigs, but beyond that...

 

[Merad]

Why would a customizable gun (or one that's actually customized to be specific) get you in more trouble?

The argument usually revolves around 2 areas: lightened trigger pulls and using ammo that you've loaded yourself.

A very light trigger can let the prosecutor argue that your gun was unsafe, and that you were reckless or negligent for making such a modification. They can also try to say that you fired accidentally because of the light trigger, rather than it being a justified self defense shooting. It also opens the door for accusations about things like, how you want to make your gun easier to shoot so you could kill people.

Hand loaded ammo is a bit more complex, but more or less comes down to: (1) they may not allow things like ballistic tests with hand loaded ammo (since they can't verified how the rounds are loaded, and it's evidence you made yourself), and lack of that evidence may hurt you, and (2) opens you to accusations about trying to make "more deadly bullets" etc.

Personally, I take those a step further and say, I'll just carry a stock gun. Other customizations to a gun can probably be defended, but there's no reason in my mind to take the risk. Could I shoot a heavily customized gun better than a stock G19? Sure. Is the difference significant enough that I feel like I'm missing anything? Nope.

Now, odds are pretty good that there will be some replies pooh-pooh'ing everything I've said. Are some of the arguments stupid? Yep. Well, news flash: juries are stupid, and can/will fall for them.

That's why this topic usually turns into huge debates on gun forums. The bottom line IMO is that most gun people seem to believe that if they're involved in a self defense shooting it will be cut & dry, and their use of force will quickly & easily be judged as justified (and they'll probably get a pat on the back for taking out a thug). Me, I'd rather assume the worst, and do everything I can to make sure the cards are lined up in my favor if I get stuck in that situation so I don't have huge lawyer fees and potentially many years trying to avoid being someone's prison bitch.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Inline

I think you're overreacting. 1911's are nice, but a lot of what you're marking up for them and against glocks are personal preference.

Looks? I'm glad you think your 1911 looks really good, but that isn't how I decide what to carry. Sure, not saying it is. I just like the look of a 1911.
Safety? I won't carry a gun with a safety and I only carry DAO. Because you prefer SAO and a manual safety, you're going to say that my choice is wrong? I think you're misreading what I'm saying. I never said a DA/SA revolver is bad to carry - it's got what I call a terrible trigger pull in DA, but as a carry gun, I think it's pretty safe. A hard pull means safer. The glock pull is not hard, and the gun always has energy stored in the strike if a round is chambered. I call this unsafe - I never ever advise someone to carry a gun in condition 0; carry in conditions 1 or 2 (if you can reach condition 2 safely.
Accuracy? Are you really saying the accuracy between a glock and a 1911 will make the difference in a shoot at under 21 feet? Take a shot longer than that and I would think you better be saving someone's life or expect prosecution. I think I was arguing that my CCO is a bad comparison to a G21 or G30.
Comfort? Its your opinion that the glock is uncomfortable. I agree with that, but who are weto decide what people consider comfortable? Again, things in my posts are from my POV. When talking looks, comfort and whatnot that should be pretty clear.

Main drawback for the 1911's? My opinion is cost and in my personal experience, more of them have problems out of the box that need to be tuned away than the plastic options, especially when you start looking at shorter versions since the stroke was originally designed for a 5" slide. I've seen a Rock Island out of the box perform flawlessly. I think I was speechless for a few hours, but it happened. I think the idea that a 1911 is unreliable until you tweak it is stemming from a few people making stuff up, or things like Kimber's external extractor which was an absolute travesty. I think pretty much any RI, SA, Kimber, S&W or similar 1911 should perform fine out of the box.

In the end, the "problem" with 1911's is that it is just a design, and which brand someone gets means they're getting that version of a 1911. Just look at mags to see how different things are. This is dead on - which is why I recommend people avoid Kimber - they modify too much, and add a worthless safety. Despite that though, they seem reliable.

Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

They had serious reliability issues in past. They're probably past them, but it still gets a bad rap because of those issues.

 

[RampantAndroid]

The argument usually revolves around 2 areas: lightened trigger pulls and using ammo that you've loaded yourself.

A very light trigger can let the prosecutor argue that your gun was unsafe, and that you were reckless or negligent for making such a modification. They can also try to say that you fired accidentally because of the light trigger, rather than it being a justified self defense shooting. It also opens the door for accusations about things like, how you want to make your gun easier to shoot so you could kill people.

Hand loaded ammo is a bit more complex, but more or less comes down to: (1) they may not allow things like ballistic tests with hand loaded ammo (since they can't verified how the rounds are loaded, and it's evidence you made yourself), and lack of that evidence may hurt you, and (2) opens you to accusations about trying to make "more deadly bullets" etc.

Personally, I take those a step further and say, I'll just carry a stock gun. Other customizations to a gun can probably be defended, but there's no reason in my mind to take the risk. Could I shoot a heavily customized gun better than a stock G19? Sure. Is the difference significant enough that I feel like I'm missing anything? Nope.

Now, odds are pretty good that there will be some replies pooh-pooh'ing everything I've said. Are some of the arguments stupid? Yep. Well, news flash: juries are stupid, and can/will fall for them.

That's why this topic usually turns into huge debates on gun forums. The bottom line IMO is that most gun people seem to believe that if they're involved in a self defense shooting it will be cut & dry, and their use of force will quickly & easily be judged as justified (and they'll probably get a pat on the back for taking out a thug). Me, I'd rather assume the worst, and do everything I can to make sure the cards are lined up in my favor if I get stuck in that situation so I don't have huge lawyer fees and potentially many years trying to avoid being someone's prison bitch.

The handloading one I've heard. But i'm not talking about hand loading here. I carry speer or similar hollow points. I don't load defense ammo, ever. I don't trust myself enough.

The trigger one IS BS, and I will call you on that one. It doesn't take much for you to say "I was in danger and I pulled the trigger, I intended to fire."

 

[Merad]

The trigger one IS BS, and I will call you on that one. It doesn't take much for you to say "I was in danger and I pulled the trigger, I intended to fire."

I presume you've heard of Massad Ayoob? He disagrees with you. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/

As I've said, do what you will. It's quite literally your own life that will be affected.

 

[glenn1]

I just want Merad to enumerate the issues with the 1911 as a platform.

Allow me. Cost vs comparable weapon. Capacity in original single stack configuration. Far more difficult to disassemble vs modern competitors. Magazines tend to give you problems. Feeding can be hit or miss unless the feed ramp is polished. Common problems with extractor and slide stop failures. Weight vs competitors. Traditional cartridge (.45 ACP) is less than ideal for most shooters in terms of recoil and price per round. Single action and preferred method of carrying in Condition 1 is often inappropriate for newbie users. Weapon generally needs a fair amount of expensive tuning by a gunsmith to have the feel and trigger pull always cited as its main strength. I could probably continue, but this seems like a good enough list to start with.

 

[velillen]

Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

I didnt mind it when i shot it at the range. Shot pretty well and fit me decently as well. The slide seemed to have a bit of wiggle room which i disliked though. but overall it was honestly my second choice when i was looking before i went with the 226.

Ummm, its already been replaced by Sig. They havent bought new Berettas in a long time.

And yet the 92fs (well m9) is still in every holster in the US Navy when i board/exit their ships. Though they are rather beat up looking (from lots of carrying) so they might not be buying them but they are still in use. I think only the Seals for the Navy use Sigs. Others might but i just know the general carry gun for sentries in the m9.

The handloading one I've heard. But i'm not talking about hand loading here. I carry speer or similar hollow points. I don't load defense ammo, ever. I don't trust myself enough.

Why wouldnt you trust yourself enough to load defense rounds? Its no different than normal loading but with better bullets.

Though i am with ya in that i do use store bought defensive rounds if i carry. But only cause i bought them prior to learning to reload my own. Be curious if they could really use it against you or not. I use plated bullets that fall apart at around 1300fps (for 9mm) so not like i could load them all that much hotter with out the bullet falling apart and being useless. And i also use plain round nose bullets so they arent designed to break apart or anything like a JHP

 

[RampantAndroid]

I presume you've heard of Massad Ayoob? He disagrees with you. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/

As I've said, do what you will. It's quite literally your own life that will be affected.

He offers no sources to back up his claims, and no case law. Interesting theories, but they are just that. In some states even, if they clear you of criminal charges in self defense, you are immune from civil charges (as it should be.)

Allow me. Cost vs comparable weapon. Capacity in original single stack configuration. Far more difficult to field strip vs modern competitors. Magazines tend to give you problems. Feeding can be hit or miss unless the feed ramp is polished. Common problems with extractor and slide stop failures. Weight vs competitors. Traditional cartridge (.45 ACP) is less than ideal for most shooters in terms of recoil and price per round. Single action and preferred method of carrying in Condition 1 is often inappropriate for newbie users. Weapon generally needs a fair amount of expensive tuning by a gunsmith to have the feel and trigger pull always cited as its main strength. I could probably continue, but this seems like a good enough list to start with.

Magazines: OK, I own 3 types of mags: Checkmate, Wilson Combat and Cobra. Zero failures. You were saying? Only thing I'll give you here is an aluminum frame + unramped barrel + metal follower type that can nose dive = bad. You put a cheap mag in any gun, and you will see issues.

On an SA basic model, I saw no issues with the unpolished feed ramp, and I've seen no slide stop issues.

Tuning: again, I disagree. RIA 1911s function fine out of the box, and they're about the cheapest 1911s that exist. Soooo....

Field stripping: I can do it in a few seconds. Is the Glock a little simpler? Yeah. But I don't see this as an issue. Popping the spring is the hardest part, and I can do it without the stupid tool.

Condition 1 being inappropriate. What? No. Condition 1 is the safest, and easy to deal with. When unholstering, flip off the safety with your thumb, grip gun. Period, end of story. If a newbie cannot handle that, they should no be carrying. You do not remove an entire safety mechanism that prevents accidental discharges just so some new person can carry a gun.

Why is single action bad? If you wish to carry a gun with no energy stored, fine. But I would never say that SAO in of itself is bad.

Cost? Again, I can point you to an RIA gun.

Weight? Yes - the 1911, in steel, is heavier.

Capacity? Are you seriously telling me that you see situations where you will need 10 rounds? Where 3 rounds is not enough? If you say "I might miss a few times" then I respond with "yes, and that means you might be hitting bystanders" - if you take a shot, it had better hit, or be in a safe direction. I honestly would have no real issue carrying 7+1 and no other mags with me. If I need that second mag, I'm in deep trouble, and another mag is likely not enough anyway.

 

[glenn1]

Originally Posted by kazaam
Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

It's OK. It's an 80s design, very heavy and bulky for a 9mm by modern standards. A lot of guys get a kick out of it because it's the US military service pistol, but even that won't be true for long. The military's currently looking for a replacement.

I can speak from experience in carrying it, that I dislike the open slide as it's a sand magnet (especially for that talcum powder sand they have in Egypt).

 

[Merad]

Though i am with ya in that i do use store bought defensive rounds if i carry. But only cause i bought them prior to learning to reload my own. Be curious if they could really use it against you or not.

I don't think it's very likely that it would be used against you. It's more that you would probably lose things like ballistics tests and GSR evidence that could help you.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[velillen]

nevermind

 

[Merad]

Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for that info merad! Are these prosecutors insane?!

Just depends. Sometimes people get away with claiming SD in shootings that seem to be ludicrous, other times a shooting looks clearly justified but a prosecutor is trying to make a name for themselves...

 

[IGemini]

Subject change: how do you guys like the Beretta 92FS?

Pretty much the same as previous answers. If I really was to go with a steel Beretta, it would be the Beretta Cougar over the 92. It's not significantly lighter but it is much more compact (not to mention it's also has a .45ACP chambered option). Newer ones are manufactured by Stoeger, which is the exact same gun made with the same equipment.

Yes, the M9 is still standard issue in the Army. I think the Navy is still with the M11 (SIG P228). SEALs use the P226, and a few other branches have their own sidearms. They've talked about replacing the entire military stockpile at one point or another, but I think they'll do the rifles before the pistols (if they can find the money for it).

 

[glenn1]

Magazines: OK, I own 3 types of mags: Checkmate, Wilson Combat and Cobra. Zero failures. You were saying? Only thing I'll give you here is an aluminum frame + unramped barrel + metal follower type that can nose dive = bad. You put a cheap mag in any gun, and you will see issues.

On an SA basic model, I saw no issues with the unpolished feed ramp, and I've seen no slide stop issues.

Tuning: again, I disagree. RIA 1911s function fine out of the box, and they're about the cheapest 1911s that exist. Soooo....

Field stripping: I can do it in a few seconds. Is the Glock a little simpler? Yeah. But I don't see this as an issue. Popping the spring is the hardest part, and I can do it without the stupid tool.

Condition 1 being inappropriate. What? No. Condition 1 is the safest, and easy to deal with. When unholstering, flip off the safety with your thumb, grip gun. Period, end of story. If a newbie cannot handle that, they should no be carrying. You do not remove an entire safety mechanism that prevents accidental discharges just so some new person can carry a gun.

Why is single action bad? If you wish to carry a gun with no energy stored, fine. But I would never say that SAO in of itself is bad.

Cost? Again, I can point you to an RIA gun.

Weight? Yes - the 1911, in steel, is heavier.

Capacity? Are you seriously telling me that you see situations where you will need 10 rounds? Where 3 rounds is not enough? If you say "I might miss a few times" then I respond with "yes, and that means you might be hitting bystanders" - if you take a shot, it had better hit, or be in a safe direction. I honestly would have no real issue carrying 7+1 and no other mags with me. If I need that second mag, I'm in deep trouble, and another mag is likely not enough anyway.

Dude, chill out and use whatever firearm makes you happy. The 1911 is a reasonable choice, but you shouldn't hold it out as being some kind of Excalibur. You asked for advantages of a more modern design, I provided them - saying things like "it's not THAT much more effort to disassemble," or that "capacity doesn't matter because who will ever need more than 7 shots" is disingenuous. Point is, for most folks simple is better, and a revolver or modern SA/DA or even double-action only pistol in 9MM or similar calibre is a far better option than a 1911, especially for a newbie just starting out.