YAGT: OMG I love guns

[irishScott]

Here's a question for the 938 crowd:

How does it compare to the Colt Mustang? It seems odd that I don't really see the latter mentioned much. AFAIK their pricing is pretty similar and I think (not sure) Colt still makes them? If not, it's fairly recently discontinued, as I still see new ones popping up for sale.

edit: oh, is the Mustang only .380? I thought there were 9mm's. So I guess that would make it a 238 contender, rather.

Yep, Mustang is only .380, and Colt may have fixed it with the re-release but from what I've read the originals were notoriously unreliable.

They did release a polymer framed-model that takes the weight down an oz from aluminum though.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt380Mustang®.aspx

 

[SpatiallyAware]

The P938 is a great gun. Small, easy to carry, and reliable from everything I put mine through.

The trigger is the downfall. Not just the heavy SA pull, but also because it's plastic, and the texture is horrible. When people say it will give you blisters on your trigger finger after a long range session, they're not exaggerating.

I purchased an aftermarket smooth aluminum trigger thinking that it would fix my only gripe with the gun, but alas, the trigger pin is a bear to remove. After marring my frame before finally getting the thing out, I shelved the gun for now.

With that said, after a couple of months of carrying my M&P Shield or Cold Defender instead, I really miss the P938. It was just that comfortable to carry, and although the trigger wasn't great and the site radius is short, it shoots well. It's just that good of a gun.

I put a partsproduction trigger on my 238 and it greatly improved the feel. It has a cap that goes over the trigger spring that smooths everything out.

Use a nail set rather than a punch on that pin. Heat the frame up just a bit. Use pb blaster and let it soak. Use masking tape to cover the entire face of the frame. Use a piece of oak or other hardwood on top of concrete, as tables/workbenches introduce too much 'bounce' when knocking out the pin. Don't use too heavy or too light of a hammer.

 

[Tiamat]

Here's a question for the 938 crowd:

How does it compare to the Colt Mustang? It seems odd that I don't really see the latter mentioned much. AFAIK their pricing is pretty similar and I think (not sure) Colt still makes them? If not, it's fairly recently discontinued, as I still see new ones popping up for sale.

edit: oh, is the Mustang only .380? I thought there were 9mm's. So I guess that would make it a 238 contender, rather.

Overall same design. My gunsmith said the internals were almost identical comparing the mustang and 238 which means that very little can be done to improve the triggers other than some minor polishing. The 938,is a little bigger. The flaws of the crap trigger of the mustang remain in the 238 and 938. Regardless of the crap trigger I still like the 938 overall as ccw because of its size for caliber and it not having the very long double action pulls its competitors has.

 

[Zargon]

The first shot with any gun is as accurate as the shooter can make it. It's any rapid follow on shots that would be through off on accuracy by the "kick" of the shot. A short sight radius only means that if the sight picture isn't perfect when shot, there is going to be a chance of a bit more degree of being off.

Otherwise, nothing about a short barrel versus a long barrel inherently changes the direction of a bullet coming out of it.

So long as there is no damage to the barrel, ammo, or some other variable that is causing a bullet to have an accuracy problem when shot, a short barrel versus long barrel only affects accuracy in that it may be harder for some people to line up the sight picture of the gun sights perfectly on their target.

Now, one can argue that guns with smaller barrels tend to be lighter, which in turn would make a lighter gun more prone to be affected by natural muscle movement that constantly happens over a heavier gun. That is true. But that is accuracy of the shooter and not the gun. Something I stated at the start of this post.

all I did was list reasons (valid reasons) that the 938 would be harder to shoot than a larger gun

I agree with everything you said.

ligher guns have more felt recoil making follow up shots harder

shorter barrels generally decrease sight radius making lining up shots more difficult

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Overall same design. My gunsmith said the internals were almost identical comparing the mustang and 238 which means that very little can be done to improve the triggers other than some minor polishing. The 938,is a little bigger. The flaws of the crap trigger of the mustang remain in the 238 and 938. Regardless of the crap trigger I still like the 938 overall as ccw because of its size for caliber and it not having the very long double action pulls its competitors has.

The partsproduction trigger solves a major issue by including a tiny machined cap for the trigger return bar. It allows the trigger bar to glide over the top of the spring rather than boing across it.

 

[phucheneh]

Here's a random question: in the case of hammers that use a coil spring in the grip for their 'oomph'...as in, talkin' CZ clone here...is there any danger to lightening that mainspring? Aside from the obvious: you want to make sure their is adequate tension on the hammer/sear to make it safe, and that the hammer strikes hard enough to be reliable.

But is there any other interaction I should worry about? Like, say, needing other springs to match it (recoil or firing pin springs)? I'm gonna get a whole spring kit supposedly engineered to work together eventually (from a 'pro shop'); right now, though, I'm just experimenting. I have cut, uh...about four coils from my mainspring. It is a sizeable modification. There is still preload with the hammer down, and the sear still locks up tight at both half and full cock. But SA trigger pull has got to be down to 4 pounds or less and the DA is 500% better.

FYI I'm not carrying this gun or anything, and am astute enough to judge what might actually make it unsafe. I'm not filing hammers/sears or anything. Just did minor polishing and took the pressure down on a very aggressive mainspring. It is a functional gun that is tested in a controlled eviroment.

...but I might carry it. For a 15rnd hammer-fired 9mm, it is damn streamlined. And the grips feel fucking awesome. I gotta get this out and shoot it tomorrow...I predict great success with the great ergonomics and buttery-smooth trigger. But I just wanna be sure I haven't missed anything that immediately affects the safety of this gun.

edit: and it fits in my damn IWB holster made for an LC9. Like...really well. The grip on my polymer EAA is a lot narrower, but the rest of the gun chunkier. It does not fit in said LC9 holster (originally had that one for my CW9...so it's not big). And wood and cold metal just feel great in the hand. I'm definitely gonna have to go all out and make this gun great...new hammer parts, new trigger, and other major stuff probably to come.

 

[BladeVenom]

In addition to the recoil spring, the radius of the firing pin stop, and the strength of the hammer spring all combine in slowing down the reward momentum of the slide. So, at least on a 1911, a lighter hammer spring means the slide will come back harder.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I would not regularly carry a self modified gun that has a trigger pull below 6lbs. While camping, hunting, around the property.. Sure.. But not in public.

 

[Zargon]

I would not regularly carry a self modified gun that has a trigger pull below 6lbs. While camping, hunting, around the property.. Sure.. But not in public.

trigger pull shouldn't matter

finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you are going to fire it anyways :sneaky:


Glock 19's come from the factory with ~4.5lbs

 

[SpatiallyAware]

trigger pull shouldn't matter

finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you are going to fire it anyways :sneaky:


Glock 19's come from the factory with ~4.5lbs

I'm not attesting to the 'gun safety' aspect of a light trigger, only the legal aspect.

It's a DA's wet dream to find a self defense situation that involves a gun modified by its owner specifically to be easier to shoot. Think about zimmerman/dunn, and what would've happened had either of those guys lowered trigger pull to under 4lbs.

I'm pretty sure those 9mm blocks are 6lb trigger pull, but I don't have to the time to research at the moment. Either way, the key here is that you shouldn't lower it if you might end up in court, not to avoid a gun that came that way from the factory.

 

[cmdrdredd]

A short and decent article about trigger pull weight from Vickers Tactical. He says a standard box stock glock is around 5lbs.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/trigger-pull-weight/

 

[HumblePie]

all I did was list reasons (valid reasons) that the 938 would be harder to shoot than a larger gun

I agree with everything you said.

ligher guns have more felt recoil making follow up shots harder

shorter barrels generally decrease sight radius making lining up shots more difficult

Wasn't disagreeing with what you said. I was just expanding upon it with more detail. There are quite a few people that for some reason really think that barrel length directly affects accuracy of a stabilized rifled shot.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I don't know about the exact technical reasons why (short barrel, weight, length of barrel) but no doubt that a short gun is much harder to consistently shoot compared to a larger one.

 

[Zargon]

I'm not attesting to the 'gun safety' aspect of a light trigger, only the legal aspect.

It's a DA's wet dream to find a self defense situation that involves a gun modified by its owner specifically to be easier to shoot. Think about zimmerman/dunn, and what would've happened had either of those guys lowered trigger pull to under 4lbs.

I'm pretty sure those 9mm blocks are 6lb trigger pull, but I don't have to the time to research at the moment. Either way, the key here is that you shouldn't lower it if you might end up in court, not to avoid a gun that came that way from the factory.

they come with a 5.5 or 4.5 depending on Model

the basic sull sized are all 5.5

the smaller and specialized larger ones usually have a 4.5

you have much MUCH more to worry about that a non stock trigger if you end up in court....unless its a slide fire stock


I don't see how this FUD gets all over the internet

sure a DA could bring it up, but a decent lawyer will talk you right back out of it

 

[HumblePie]

OK...telling fish stories is one thing but now you are straight up lying.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36054332&postcount=3015
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36054650&postcount=3031
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36061629&postcount=3288

You not only claimed you could do it, you claimed you do it all the time. Then you said anyone could do it if they had a rest. No mention of a vice. Then you got called out because you said you did it at Bass Pro Shops and the one you claim to have done it at doesn't have a 50 yard lane.

Here is your exact quote:



I really hope you can make the shot. I really do hope you post the video in this thread like you promised. But come on man...don't lie. We like you, you don't need to lie to be accepted.

In none of those posts does it not say I don't make that shot using a rest. Nor do any of those statements counteract anything about making an accurate shot at 50 yards without a rest. So calling me a liar and trying to use links, of which none of them shows me lying, doesn't exactly do what you think it does. That whole argument stemmed from my comment saying I could make a very accurate shot in ideal conditions and I probably couldn't do anything close to what the shooter in that thread did under "live fire" conditions. Then the other idiot in that thread tried to make a stupid claim that it is physically impossible for a short barrel to make an accurate shot at that distance. To which I showed through physics and video shots made by others how wrong he was. Then you guys had to nitpick and believe that I couldn't make that shot although others could. Although why you would not believe someone that has a service medals from the military in marksmanship is beyond me. Still if you really want proof of my capabilities that is taking me time.

As far as doing a video, that is the part I'm hung on. Got some friends with some land that I can shoot on where I can also record. The regular shooting ranges around here don't let you record anything at all. So I've been trying to convince someone I know to take a weekend out to go shooting. But busy people with busy lives, it's not that easy to just get together and do it on a weekend.

 

[rudeguy]

In none of those posts does it not say I don't make that shot using a rest. Nor do any of those statements counteract anything about making an accurate shot at 50 yards without a rest. So calling me a liar and trying to use links, of which none of them shows me lying, doesn't exactly do what you think it does. That whole argument stemmed from my comment saying I could make a very accurate shot in ideal conditions and I probably couldn't do anything close to what the shooter in that thread did under "live fire" conditions. Then the other idiot in that thread tried to make a stupid claim that it is physically impossible for a short barrel to make an accurate shot at that distance. To which I showed through physics and video shots made by others how wrong he was. Then you guys had to nitpick and believe that I couldn't make that shot although others could. Although why you would not believe someone that has a service medals from the military in marksmanship is beyond me. Still if you really want proof of my capabilities that is taking me time.

As far as doing a video, that is the part I'm hung on. Got some friends with some land that I can shoot on where I can also record. The regular shooting ranges around here don't let you record anything at all. So I've been trying to convince someone I know to take a weekend out to go shooting. But busy people with busy lives, it's not that easy to just get together and do it on a weekend.

I'll settle for a video of you shooting a silver dollar off of a hooker's nipple.

Deal?

 

[HumblePie]

I don't know about the exact technical reasons why (short barrel, weight, length of barrel) but no doubt that a short gun is much harder to consistently shoot compared to a larger one.

From a physics standpoint, nothing about a short barrel affects accuracy over a long barrel. As long as the barrel can stabilize a rifled round it will fly where ever it is aimed at.

The difference is a short barrel with a short sight radius is harder for a person to aim. That's why we say the guns are more accurate that the shooter. Because it is up to the shooter to aim and shoot properly to make the shot go where they want. Also, recoil will affect accuracy of follow up shots if the shooter is trying to make a followup shot without taking enough time to aim like the first shot. If a shooter is taking enough time between shots to aim as accurately as possible, recoil means nothing.

 

[HumblePie]

I'll settle for a video of you shooting a silver dollar off of a hooker's nipple.

Deal?

Give me your mom's number and I'll try to set it up.

 

[rudeguy]

Give me your mom's number and I'll try to set it up.

:biggrin:

 

[TerryMathews]

It's a DA's wet dream to find a self defense situation that involves a gun modified by its owner specifically to be easier to shoot. Think about zimmerman/dunn, and what would've happened had either of those guys lowered trigger pull to under 4lbs.

This is brought up a lot but ive never seen someone cite a court case where it was mentioned. Have one?

The consensus among the people I talk to seems to be that it would only be an issue in a ND/AD situation. Alering the gun to fire with a lighter trigger shouldn't be a factor in a case where youre asserting self defense.

 

[Phanuel]

I'm not quite sure how you expect to hit an area the size of a quarter with more than one round at 50 yards. "Accurate" pistols are still only accurate to about 10moa at 100, which translates to a little over 5" at 50 yards. We're talking in a rest, you're going to get 2-3" groups at 25-30 yards.

I'd love to see this magical hitting of a quarter size at 50 yards all the time feat.

 

[HumblePie]

I'm not quite sure how you expect to hit an area the size of a quarter with more than one round at 50 yards. "Accurate" pistols are still only accurate to about 10moa at 100, which translates to a little over 5" at 50 yards. We're talking in a rest, you're going to get 2-3" groups at 25-30 yards.

I'd love to see this magical hitting of a quarter size at 50 yards all the time feat.

Terminal ballistics of most pistol caliber bullets don't have their accuracy affected by loss of velocity until after 200 yards. MOA is just the arc of the sights, not the actual accuracy inherent with the gun/ammo. Most pistol sights aren't precise, which is where that 10 MOA you are referring to comes from. Unless you as a shooter can pick up on something smaller to shoot with in the sight picture. The dots for the sights are a guideline for accuracy for the shooter. Having very good eye sight allows a shooter to pick up something smaller to aim with in the sight picture to change that. As well as practice and experience in knowing where you are aiming and how.

 

[Phanuel]

Welp, guess I'm done here.

Feel free to post a youtube of your amazing skills, because I sure as shit don't believe you.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Ugh I wish you all would get off this friggin 150ft bullseye crap. Who cares. Probably someone said something they shouldn't have, and you all are like the annoying kid at the party who won't STFU about it.

Just let... it... go.. We're weeks into this pointless argument.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

From a physics standpoint, nothing about a short barrel affects accuracy over a long barrel. As long as

You also have to factor in that the longer the barrel the more of a chance the round has to get to it's maximum speed. Speed usually = distance

Ugh I wish you all would get off this friggin 150ft bullseye crap. Who cares. Probably someone said something they shouldn't have, and you all are like the annoying kid at the party who won't STFU about it.

Just let... it... go.. We're weeks into this pointless argument.

I'd be happy if we could get off of AR15s (ugh) and pistols and get into some good rifles.

Come on guys...get an M14, G43, K98 or something cool. Or at least something that you can't get at Academy/Walmart .

I still have a Sig 551 on my list to buy...