In general, I don't want to muddy this otherwise fun thread up too much with our conversation so I really won't go much further here (but would be happy to take it to PMs or another thread).
You ignore the fact that risk is mitigated or worsened based on individual behavior. Those who train and take safety precautions with their weapons are much less likely to have accidents that those who are careless with them.
On a case by case basis, the safety habits of the individual gun owner equates directly to the level of risk owning a gun involves.
Do you have any evidence of this, or is it just you're feeling? Directly? You mean linearly? That's a pretty bold statement - particularly when we have police officers, active duty/veteran service men and women with negligent discharges and they should be at the pinnacle of training. This is part of my point - we don't ACTUALLY have data (at least not any high quality data that I've seen, though I would be happy to review some - I admittedly don't spend hours looking for it) that supports what you're saying. It is certainly the intuitive conclusion, but intuition is very often NOT reality. Let's even say that some gun safety education/practices DO decrease risk (we don't have proof, but we'll assume it for sake of argument here) - how much? Is it linear? Is it enough to change the risk/benefit calculation?
Yes, statistically, gun owners AS A GROUP are more likely to hurt themselves with a gun than use it defensively.
I'm glad we can at least agree on this foundation.
And I'm really only concerned with the risk my own guns pose to myself, my family and those around me. I won't change my behavior or forego gun ownership because some idiots act like idiots or commit crimes.
This is No True Scotsman.
Now, that post I made before was talking about gun safety and I went off on a tangent, for which I did apologize. Then you come in and post your statistical drivel and how owning a gun is an emotional decision and I'm the bad guy for asking you not to? Well, since I just agreed (for about the eleventy-hundredth time) with the point you insist on continually making, now there's no reason for you to repeat it again, right?
I don't think you're a bad guy, I think you're pretty reasonable. Shrug.
By the way, why would you read books on self-defense with a firearm if there is no escaping the statistical increased danger from owning one? Everyone is equally unsafe with a gun aren't they? No escaping it via training, right?
Firstly, I just love learning things. I read, A LOT, always have. I also believe that owning firearms is a responsibility and owning them without significant education (academic and "hands on") is irresponsible. Be careful with logic here. People may not be equally unsafe, we honestly just don't know. However, one of the things I did learn throughout the years of learning more and more about firearms is exactly that - we don't know. This is semi reasonable application of Dunning Kruger, right? The more I learned, trained (as I mentioned, shot with IPDA), the more I realized that I may not actually be mitigating my risk at all. Maybe I am, but maybe I'm not. As I've gotten older, I've gotten far more data driven and far less driven by emotion (I think as a result of my career which largely boils down to "show me the data" before making most decisions).
Now you've had your say and I've had mine. Let's discuss this elsewhere. Or not discuss it at all because nothing you say will change my mind.
Damn it. I just got here at the end but I see we agree here, too. I'm not wasting all that glorious typing!
Honestly, I'm not passing any value judgment on anyone's ownership of firearms. I think it's great sport (obviously, or I wouldn't own them), but part of my "gun enthusiasm" is being frank and honest with the data out there and not making it an emotional argument. Making emotional arguments is what keeps the NRA et al getting richer, makes a real loss of gun rights possible, and does nothing to increase population safety - and as enthusiasts isn't safety (not just for us, but for everyone) one of the big points?
EDIT: and sorry for assuming you knew nothing about guns themselves. I don't keep track of who's who around here except for a few who stand out in particular.
I appreciate that.
Just for to lighten the mood, and to try to get things back on track here's my new AR (I actually have 3 now). An acquaintance never really used it - something like 2-300 rounds through it - and wanted to get rid of it so I got it "as is" for 700 bucks (including the all the pictured Magpul accessories and the red dot, the Streamlight TLR-2 is one of mine I had lying around). Nice looking Sig M400 chambered in 5.56.