Yay for power efficiency

[Arachnotronic]

Right now I'm in the middle of doing a low-cost gaming build for a friend. I am committed to including a high performance GPU, but at the same time I am stuck with a fixed budget. Typically I like to over-provision the PSUs in my builds, but with this build I can't afford any frills.

I'm really happy that today's video cards use single 6/8 pin power connectors, even the highest performance ones. This makes it cheaper to build a system at a given performance level. I suspect it also makes upgrading pre-built systems from OEMs to feature gaming capable GPUs easier.

Next, I want to see the dGPU makers start pushing the performance envelope for cards that only draw power from the slot. This should make it even easier to upgrade pre-built systems (though I would never do a new build with a PSU that doesn't have a 6-pin PCIe connector). Looking forward to RX 460 reviews soon and, whenever it drops, GP107.

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

I'm interested to see what GP107 brings. My guess is between 960 and 970 performance with no PEG connector.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I'm interested to see what GP107 brings. My guess is between 960 and 970 performance with no PEG connector.

That would be a killer card, no brainer upgrade for anybody stuck with a pre-built with a crap PSU. Hope NVIDIA doesn't neglect this portion of the market.

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

Based on the steam survey results I don't think they will. There are still a lot of people using GeForce 750 Tis, 650s, and 660s. A GP107 with that level of performance and no need for a PEG connector would be a great upgrade path for these people.

 

[antihelten]

I'm interested to see what GP107 brings. My guess is between 960 and 970 performance with no PEG connector.

I think the latest rumours had the GP107 featuring a single GPC or the equivalent of 640 CUDA cores. This would then be exactly half of a 1060 (GP106) and if the performance is also half of a 1060 , then it would be somewhere between a 950 and 960, not between a 960 and a 970.

The level of performance you are talking about (between 960 and 970) will more likely be taken up by a cutdown GP106 GPU.

 

[tviceman]

I think the latest rumours had the GP107 featuring a single GPC or the equivalent of 640 CUDA cores. This would then be exactly half of a 1060 (GP106) and if the performance is also half of a 1060 , then it would be somewhere between a 950 and 960, not between a 960 and a 970.

The level of performance you are talking about (between 960 and 970) will more likely be taken up by a cutdown GP106 GPU.

It should actually outperform a gtx 960, albeit not by much. Given that it will be half a GP106 in core count, and 33% less ROPs and bus width, the core clocks can be upped from GP106 and still be within 75 watts while vram speed can be decreased to 6-6.6gbps to save some wattage.

It should be 55-60% the speed of GP106 at ~65 watts.

 

[antihelten]

It should actually outperform a gtx 960, albeit not by much. Given that it will be half a GP106 in core count, and 33% less ROPs and bus width, the core clocks can be upped from GP106 and still be within 75 watts while vram speed can be decreased to 6-6.6gbps to save some wattage.

It should be 55-60% the speed of GP106 at ~65 watts.

How do you know the GP107 will have 33% less ROP than a GP106? If anything it might actually have less than half the ROPs of GP106, given that GP106 has an unusually high ROP count compared to GP104 and GP102 (50% higher relative to shader count). If GP107 only has a 33% lower ROP count than GP106 (and thus has 32 ROPs), then it would have double the relative ROP to shader amount of GP104 and GP102 (1 ROP per 20 CUDA cores, compared to 1 ROP per 40 CUDA cores for the GP104 and GP102).

It is true that if the GP106 is primarily bandwidth limited then the GP107 might trend closer to the 33% gap in bandwidth rather than the 50% gap in shader performance, but I'm not sure if there's any indications that the GP106 is more bandwidth limited than shader limited.

 

[RussianSensation]

I'm really happy that today's video cards use single 6/8 pin power connectors, even the highest performance ones. This makes it cheaper to build a system at a given performance level.

I disagree with this statement completely. I've been following the GPU landscape for close to 15 years and I've noticed that the low powered videocards with good perf/watt tend to have large premiums and generally poor/awful performance/$. That means saving $30-50 on a high quality PSU actually ends up costing MORE long-term in terms of GPU upgrades. Cards such as GTX750/750Ti/950/960 all come to mind that had excellent performance/watt but horrible price/performance compared to much faster card that required a solid 500-550W PSU unit.

There have been so many deals on good PSUs over the years in the US, that there is 0, and I repeat 0 excuses why someone should sacrifice the choice of what CPU/GPU they can buy over the next 5-10 years to save what $20-50? Saving on the PSU is literally THE worst thing any new PC builder can do long-term. The PSU is the most important component in a system and money should first be saved on the motherboard, case, memory or just about anywhere else, not the PSU.

There is no reason a budget build cannot include a good PSU that can power any single GPU on the market. Some deals in the past:

XFX TS Series 750W Quiet ATX 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (P1-750S-NLB9) 5 Years Warranty $35 ( MIR $35)

750W Thermaltake Toughpower 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply (PS-TPD-0750MPCGUS-1) for $79.99 - $25 Rebate = $54.99.

EVGA 600W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply (100-W1-0600-K1) on sale for $29.99.

700 Watt EVGA 700B 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (100-B1-0700-K1) [newegg.com]

• Price (after coupon): $54.99 - $15.00 Rebate [newegg.com] = $39.99 AR + $1.99 S&H

The PSU also allows overclocking headroom and stability for both the CPU/GPU and upgrade path to more powerful 6-10 core CPUs. Furthermore, gamers who are just entering the PC gaming scene could eventually choose to move away from 6/8-pin videocards towards 200-250W GPU class of flagship cards. This is especially true as 3440x1440, 4K, 1440p 144-200Hz, etc. start to gain traction over the next 5 years.

I've been on the forums for so long that I can say without a shadow of a doubt any PC build with a budget/lower end PSU is an incorrectly build PC system. Any small amount of $$$ saved to meet some arbitrary budget will end up costing a lot more in the future.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I disagree with this statement completely. I've been following the GPU landscape for close to 15 years and I've noticed that the low powered videocards with good perf/watt tend to have large premiums and generally poor/awful performance/$. That means saving $30-50 on a high quality PSU actually ends up costing MORE long-term in terms of GPU upgrades. Cards such as GTX750/750Ti/950/960 all come to mind that had excellent performance/watt but horrible price/performance compared to much faster card that required a solid 500-550W PSU unit.

Even the GTX 1070/1080 today only require a single 8-pin power connector. The trend in power on these GPUs is down.

There have been so many deals on good PSUs over the years in the US, that there is 0, and I repeat 0 excuses why someone should sacrifice the choice of what CPU/GPU they can buy over the next 5-10 years to save what $20-50? Saving on the PSU is literally THE worst thing any new PC builder can do long-term. The PSU is the most important component in a system and money should first be saved on the motherboard, case, memory or just about anywhere else, not the PSU.

Deals come and go, but you can't sit around waiting for one to pop up. When it's time to build a system it's time to build a system. That's the case with the rig I'm doing right now.

There is no reason a budget build cannot include a good PSU that can power any single GPU on the market. Some deals in the past:

XFX TS Series 750W Quiet ATX 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (P1-750S-NLB9) 5 Years Warranty $35 ( MIR $35)

750W Thermaltake Toughpower 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply (PS-TPD-0750MPCGUS-1) for $79.99 - $25 Rebate = $54.99.

EVGA 600W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply (100-W1-0600-K1) on sale for $29.99.

700 Watt EVGA 700B 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (100-B1-0700-K1) [newegg.com]

• Price (after coupon): $54.99 - $15.00 Rebate [newegg.com] = $39.99 AR + $1.99 S&H

The past is the past, not now. If deals pop up when it's time to buy, great, but when you are on a budget and the person whom you're building for is unwilling to spend even a dollar more, you have to work with what you've got. Period.

The PSU also allows overclocking headroom and stability for both the CPU/GPU and upgrade path to more powerful 6-10 core CPUs.

This system will be using an H81 motherboard, so the only upgrade path as far as this system is concerned is a quad core 4790K, a respectable CPU for gaming. It'll be equipped with an i3-4160 to begin with though.

Furthermore, gamers who are just entering the PC gaming scene could eventually choose to move away from 6/8-pin videocards towards 200-250W GPU class of flagship cards. This is especially true as 3440x1440, 4K, 1440p 144-200Hz, etc. start to gain traction over the next 5 years.

That's luxury stuff you're talking about here. This system I'm working on will be powering a cheap 1920x1080 60Hz monitor. 200W+ GPUs need not apply.

I've been on the forums for so long that I can say without a shadow of a doubt any PC build with a budget/lower end PSU is an incorrectly build PC system. Any small amount of $$$ saved to meet some arbitrary budget will end up costing a lot more in the future.

For this build, I seriously doubt it. The 400W PSU that I'm using should be more than enough for many, many years to come.

 

[USER8000]

You do realise that even a RX480 or GTX1060 will work fine with a reasonable quality 400W to 450W PSU??

Valve was using a Silverstone 450W small form factor power supply with a Geforce Titan and a Core i7.

 

[Arachnotronic]

You do realise that even a RX480 or GTX1060 will work fine with a reasonable quality 400W to 450W PSU??

Valve was using a Silverstone 450W small form factor power supply with a Geforce Titan and a Core i7.

Yep, and in the build I'm doing, I'm pairing a GTX 1060 with a 400W EVGA PSU. I expect it to work great.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Honestly, people have been overestimating their power draw for a long time. My computer's on a UPS. With an i5 4570, an R9 390 and a few other minor devices on it like my router, the highest power draw I saw when gaming was ~370. A 500-550 watt power supply is enough for virtually every single-card system.

How much is the 400 watt PSU? I'm honestly curious, as most times I've checked the price differences between sub-500 watt units and 500-550 ones was virtually nil.

 

[Wall Street]

How do you know the GP107 will have 33% less ROP than a GP106?

GP106 has a 192-bit memory interface. It is not likely that nVidia will release a 64-bit cart. Therefore, GP107 is likely 128-bit, which would mean 33% less ROPs.

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

I disagree with this statement completely. I've been following the GPU landscape for close to 15 years and I've noticed that the low powered videocards with good perf/watt tend to have large premiums and generally poor/awful performance/$. That means saving $30-50 on a high quality PSU actually ends up costing MORE long-term in terms of GPU upgrades. Cards such as GTX750/750Ti/950/960 all come to mind that had excellent performance/watt but horrible price/performance compared to much faster card that required a solid 500-550W PSU unit.

There have been so many deals on good PSUs over the years in the US, that there is 0, and I repeat 0 excuses why someone should sacrifice the choice of what CPU/GPU they can buy over the next 5-10 years to save what $20-50? Saving on the PSU is literally THE worst thing any new PC builder can do long-term. The PSU is the most important component in a system and money should first be saved on the motherboard, case, memory or just about anywhere else, not the PSU.

There is no reason a budget build cannot include a good PSU that can power any single GPU on the market. Some deals in the past:

XFX TS Series 750W Quiet ATX 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (P1-750S-NLB9) 5 Years Warranty $35 ( MIR $35)

750W Thermaltake Toughpower 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply (PS-TPD-0750MPCGUS-1) for $79.99 - $25 Rebate = $54.99.

EVGA 600W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply (100-W1-0600-K1) on sale for $29.99.

700 Watt EVGA 700B 80 Plus Bronze Certified Power Supply (100-B1-0700-K1) [newegg.com]

• Price (after coupon): $54.99 - $15.00 Rebate [newegg.com] = $39.99 AR + $1.99 S&H

The PSU also allows overclocking headroom and stability for both the CPU/GPU and upgrade path to more powerful 6-10 core CPUs. Furthermore, gamers who are just entering the PC gaming scene could eventually choose to move away from 6/8-pin videocards towards 200-250W GPU class of flagship cards. This is especially true as 3440x1440, 4K, 1440p 144-200Hz, etc. start to gain traction over the next 5 years.

I've been on the forums for so long that I can say without a shadow of a doubt any PC build with a budget/lower end PSU is an incorrectly build PC system. Any small amount of $$$ saved to meet some arbitrary budget will end up costing a lot more in the future.

I agree with this sentiment, however the beauty of not having a PEG connector is realized when a buyer of a pre-built wants to buy a graphics card but cannot upgrade their PSU. This is where these cards make the most sense.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Honestly, people have been overestimating their power draw for a long time. My computer's on a UPS. With an i5 4570, an R9 390 and a few other minor devices on it like my router, the highest power draw I saw when gaming was ~370. A 500-550 watt power supply is enough for virtually every single-card system.

How much is the 400 watt PSU? I'm honestly curious, as most times I've checked the price differences between sub-500 watt units and 500-550 ones was virtually nil.

That is quite true. I could probably run my system with only a 400W supply (or lower as the GTX1070 I have pulls less power than the GTX780 I was using before) as long as the PSU is well built. Also output Wattage =/= build quality so as long as the power supply has good efficiency which tends to mean quality build, its ok.

If one has dual socket motherboards and multi GPUs, I tend to think that ~500W supplies are more enough.

 

[Burpo]

I grabbed one of the EVGA PS for my son..

EVGA - 80 PLUS 600W ATX 12V/EPS 12V Power Supply - Black
Model: 100-W1-0600-K1
SKU: 8511029
Quantity: 1

Status: Your order has been received
Processing Preparing Ready to Pick Up
Item Total $32.09

Too good a deal to pass up..

 

[SolMiester]

You don't need a 750w PSU for a budget build period.....400 is ample!

 

[2is]

Honestly, people have been overestimating their power draw for a long time. My computer's on a UPS. With an i5 4570, an R9 390 and a few other minor devices on it like my router, the highest power draw I saw when gaming was ~370. A 500-550 watt power supply is enough for virtually every single-card system.

How much is the 400 watt PSU? I'm honestly curious, as most times I've checked the price differences between sub-500 watt units and 500-550 ones was virtually nil.

Agreed. My secondary box is running an (inefficient by today's standards) i7 2600k and a 7970 on a 430watt Corsair PSU with zero issues. Both with mild overclocks as well. My primary system (specs in sig) pulls a little over 500 watts from the wall when playing a demanding game, and that includes the power draw from 24" and 27" monitors

 

[frozentundra123456]

7970 is a 300 watt card (board power as listed by AMD) and requires 1 six pin and 1 eight pin connector. You are running that with an i7 on a 430 watt PSU? Not saying it is impossible, but how did you jerry rig the connectors? That 430 watt PSU must only have one six pin.


Edit: As far as the general topic, one can argue it is easy to just get a more powerful psu. But that begs the question of someone that already has a system with a low wattage PSU that wants to upgrade without changing the PSU (a perfectly reasonable outlook IMO).

 

[2is]

7970 is a 300 watt card (board power as listed by AMD) and requires 1 six pin and 1 eight pin connector. You are running that on a 430 watt PSU? Not saying it is impossible, but how did you jerry rig the connectors? That 430 watt PSU must only have one six pin.

Molex to PCIe adapter, the PSU has a single 8 pin

 

[frozentundra123456]

Molex to PCIe adapter, the PSU has a single 8 pin

Certainly your choice and more power to you, but that seems like a very risky set-up.

 

[2is]

Certainly your choice and more power to you, but that seems like a very risky set-up.

The only risk is "will it work" once you make that determination, there is no risk. Adapters work fine. It either works or it doesn't. If the PSU can't support the power draw, it shuts down. If there was a bad connection with the adapter, it would have surfaced in the last 3+ years I've used this setup. Hardly "very risky" unless you define "very risky" as "highly unlikely to have any issues"

 

[antihelten]

GP106 has a 192-bit memory interface. It is not likely that nVidia will release a 64-bit cart. Therefore, GP107 is likely 128-bit, which would mean 33% less ROPs.

You're right, I forgot that Pascal's ROP count is tied to the memory controller count.

Interestingly enough I just looked at the numbers for GP104 and GP102 (from TPU), and it would seem that they are in fact both ROP or bandwidth limited. When looking purely at the relative difference in shading performance, a 1080 and a Titan X both gets roughly 88% of their theoretical performance compared to a 1060 at 4K* (a 1080 has 94% more shading performance, but is only 71% faster. a Titan X has 157% more shading performance but is only 127% faster).

Of course the GP102 and GP104 being ROP or bandwidth limited doesn't necessarily indicate that GP106 also is, but either way it will be interesting to see where GP107 lands.

*The subpar scaling of GP102/104 could of course also be due to CPU bottlenecking, but at 4K that hopefully shouldn't be the case.

 

[beginner99]

Honestly, people have been overestimating their power draw for a long time. My computer's on a UPS. With an i5 4570, an R9 390 and a few other minor devices on it like my router, the highest power draw I saw when gaming was ~370. A 500-550 watt power supply is enough for virtually every single-card system.

How much is the 400 watt PSU? I'm honestly curious, as most times I've checked the price differences between sub-500 watt units and 500-550 ones was virtually nil.

Fully agree. Just get a 500w PSU and you are good to run a 390x oced with no issue. Worst case it's $20 more if at all. Also the PSU is probably the one thing you can keep longest besides the case.

 

[Rezist]

In the GPU space cheaper/low powered cards were pretty bad performance/dollar, this is kinda changing because we now have low powered/expensive cards which are pretty decent in terms of performance, still in most cases buying a 400W bronze power supply and beefier GPU is smarter then relying on the PSU in a pre-built and staying under 75W.