Yet Another Atlas Shrugged Thread - Toyota Not Guilty

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
U.S. Department of Transportation Releases Results from NHTSA-NASA Study of Unintended Acceleration in Toyota Vehicles

WASHINGTON, DC -- The U.S. Department of Transportation released results from an unprecedented ten-month study of potential electronic causes of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) launched the study last spring at the request of Congress, and enlisted NASA engineers with expertise in areas such as computer controlled electronic systems, electromagnetic interference and software integrity to conduct new research into whether electronic systems or electromagnetic interference played a role in incidents of unintended acceleration.

NASA engineers found no electronic flaws in Toyota vehicles capable of producing the large throttle openings required to create dangerous high-speed unintended acceleration incidents. The two mechanical safety defects identified by NHTSA more than a year ago – “sticking” accelerator pedals and a design flaw that enabled accelerator pedals to become trapped by floor mats – remain the only known causes for these kinds of unsafe unintended acceleration incidents. Toyota has recalled nearly 8 million vehicles in the United States for these two defects.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said, “We enlisted the best and brightest engineers to study Toyota’s electronics systems, and the verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended high-speed acceleration in Toyotas."

In conducting their report, NASA engineers evaluated the electronic circuitry in Toyota vehicles and analyzed more than 280,000 lines of software code for any potential flaws that could initiate an unintended acceleration incident. At the Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland, NASA hardware and systems engineers rigorously examined and tested mechanical components of Toyota vehicles that could result in an unwanted throttle opening. At a special facility in Michigan, NHTSA and NASA engineers bombarded vehicles with electromagnetic radiation to study whether such radiation could cause malfunctions resulting in unintended acceleration. NHTSA engineers and researchers also tested Toyota vehicles at NHTSA’s Vehicle Research and Test Center in East Liberty, Ohio to determine whether there were any additional mechanical causes for unintended acceleration and whether any of the test scenarios developed during the NHTSA-NASA investigation could actually occur in real-world conditions.

"NASA found no evidence that a malfunction in electronics caused large unintended accelerations," said Michael Kirsch, Principal Engineer at the NASA Engineering and Safety Center (NESC).
June 2009: US government takes over GM.
March 2010: US government forces Toyota to turn over its source code and hardware designs.
April 2010: US government fines Toyota tens of millions of dollars.
February 2011: US government admits that Toyota was not at fault in any of the accidents, publishes a report with a complete description of Toyota's proprietary material, and has no plans to repay the fines.

Through all of this, we see that the US government undertook to extort both money and intellectual property from Toyota while maintaining a controlling stake in Toyota's largest competitor. The US government also spent millions on a massive smear campaign over and above the cost of the "investigation." In short, the US government stole Toyota's money and technology, trashed Toyota's reputation, and then published a minor press release saying "oops, our bad." Is there a single person here who thinks this behavior is ethical, defensible, or otherwise acceptable?
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Toyota, moving shitty cars companies like Chrysler and GM forward thanks to Big Brother.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
While I commend you for your sense of fairness, you should take into consideration that the Japanese government would not bat an eye to do the same if the opportunity arose. It's playing dirty, but if everyone else is...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
A thread of lies.

It's a reminder why I have cyclowizard on my ignore list, but when I browse not logged in it shows me the posts.

From his link:

NASA engineers found no electronic flaws in Toyota vehicles capable of producing the large throttle openings required to create dangerous high-speed unintended acceleration incidents. The two mechanical safety defects identified by NHTSA more than a year ago – “sticking” accelerator pedals and a design flaw that enabled accelerator pedals to become trapped by floor mats – remain the only known causes for these kinds of unsafe unintended acceleration incidents. Toyota has recalled nearly 8 million vehicles in the United States for these two defects.

His conclusion: the fines were proven baseless and should be refunded.

From his link:

# April 5, 2010: NHTSA demands the maximum, $16.375 million, civil penalty on Toyota for its failure to notify the agency of the sticky pedal defect for more than four months after discovering it. Auto manufacturers are legally obligated to notify NHTSA within five business days of determining that a safety defect exists. Toyota pays the full fine on April 19.
# December 20, 2010: Toyota agrees to pay the maximum $16.375 million civil penalty as the result of another NHTSA investigation into whether their recall of 5.5 million vehicles for pedal entrapment was conducted in a timely manner.

So, he misinterprets the article which says there were two mechanical defects and no electrical defects as saying 'Toyota did nothing wrong'.

Then he fails to post the facts about the fines proving his opinion wrong on the fines:

That one was for a violation of the notification law about one of the mechanical failures, the other for the recall for a mechanical failure not being timely.

Neither of these fines is 'proven wrong' by his link at all about there not being any mechanical failures.

Rather, it's a mindless attack on the idea of government, democracy, public safety regulation, implying the agency is a dishonest 'thief' - based on lies.

The only actual story here beyond the fact all the issue was the two mechanical issues is that the US government has a 'cap' on fines of $16 million.

This is often a very bad idea - a political sellout that lets the agencies find fault, but protects wrongdoers from any meaningful deterrent, increasing wrongdoing.

There is the sometimes-effective, sometimes not, potential deterrent of 'bad PR', but this is greatly exaggerated for the public, and the fines have an important role.

If they're reasonable large for large wrongs, they're both a better deterrent - saving a lot by preventing wrongdoing - and help save taxpayers the cost of the agency.

It doesn't sound like a good idea that no matter how badly a car company breaks the law, how much harm is caused by wrongdoing, there is a cap for the fine at $16M.

Such fines, if paid, do potentially 'hurt the consumer' - but they help the consumer far more as a deterrent and tax reducer. Without them, companies often find that wrongdoing is more profitable than not doing the wrong - the Ford example of calculating the costs of lawsuits for leaving a known defect that would kill people versus the costs of fixing it is a classic example (and an example what 'tort reform' is really about).

Business is guided by profit over morality or the public interest. A functioning elected government is the voice for the people's interests.

By functioning, I mean one that has people trying to represent the public interest, rather than one serving the big donors like the car manufactures over the public.

But our challenged citizens who have frothing, ignorant ideology making them scream against all government, lead to threads like this, and to bad voting.

This is rather a story of government working (outside the fine cap), where its rules at least DID produce the public knowing about the mechanical defects, DID produce a product safety recall to fix defects, and DID result in a quality investigation into the safety of the electronic systems, which honestly reported there were none.

This is why driving is as safe as it is, rather than letting only 'market forces' determine the safety of vehicles, where secrecy, coverups and marketing can be profitable.

A nice ad campaign about safety can outweigh any pesky facts that go largely unpublicized without the government's regulations and investigation.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
While I commend you for your sense of fairness, you should take into consideration that the Japanese government would not bat an eye to do the same if the opportunity arose. It's playing dirty, but if everyone else is...

Except he wasn't fair. And in this case I won't agree with your cynical suggestion to regulate corruptly if 'the other guy does it'.

First, I don't see any evidence the Japanese government regulates corruptly, either.

And if they did, there are better remedies than bad regulation in retaliation.

From exposing their wrongdoing and pushing for change, to tariffs (if the corppratists haven't made such tariffs illegal).
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
A thread of lies.

It's a reminder why I have cyclowizard on my ignore list, but when I browse not logged in it shows me the posts.

From his link:
His conclusion: the fines were proven baseless and should be refunded.

From his link:
So, he misinterprets the article which says there were two mechanical defects and no electrical defects as saying 'Toyota did nothing wrong'.
I wish your eight brain cells could come together to understand what a paragraph was instead of adding multiple linebreaks between every sentence. That would probably also enable you to read with comprehension. The US government fined Toyota a total of $48 million for failing to report problems which were never substantiated (indeed, problems which the US government has since shown do not exist). Toyota had to issue a recall to stop the hemorrhaging which resulted from a smear campaign. They had to pretend to fix a non-existent problem to interrupt the never-ending media campaign about how them newfangled cars were setting innocent Americans on fire as they drove down the highway with their incorrectly installed aftermarket floormats. They agreed to pay the fines to get the government off its ass. That didn't even work because the government had a conflict of interest and was out for blood with completely illegitimate reasons.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,439
211
106
So the Firestone/Explorer incident was substancially overblown too by the media and gov't. Poor driving skills + poor maintenance = rollover potential
Ford took a beating, Firestone less so
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
I wish your eight brain cells could come together to understand what a paragraph was instead of adding multiple linebreaks between every sentence...
Fresh out of ad hominems, CycloWizard invents the ad punctuatem.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Fresh out of ad hominems, CycloWizard invents the ad punctuatem.
Craig already said I'm on his ignore list, so I'm only attacking a shadow. No harm no foul. He has nothing to add except his usual trolling crap based on his mindless support of his deity of choice (government). You also added nothing. Either address the OP or leave.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
I don't see how any of this directly relates to Atlas Shrugged other than an ordinary alleged abuse of government power. If you use a broad brush, technically just about anything the government ever does relates to Atlas Shrugged in some sort of a way.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Yet, people scream to high hell when the Chinese wanted some of our companies to do the same shit we did with Toyota. Toyota has been treated completely unfairly by our government and imo they should sue our government for their fines back, legal fees and the loss of reputation they had to take on. Fuck the Feds and their douche bag ways of doing business.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I don't see how any of this directly relates to Atlas Shrugged other than an ordinary alleged abuse of government power. If you use a broad brush, technically just about anything the government ever does relates to Atlas Shrugged in some sort of a way.
It's exactly what was done to Rearden in the book: the government and its cronies weren't able to compete on level footing with him, so they used the heavy hand of government to take his intellectual property by force. The US government (and, therefore, GM) now has all of the source code and hardware designs for most of Toyota's lineup. I don't think it's a huge leap to see the parallels between the two cases.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Toyota has been treated completely unfairly by our government

Except you can't show any bit of evidence of that. You are spewing lies.

Toyota:

- introduced two mechanical flaws causing accidents, injury, fatalities

- violated the law on notifying the government when they found the flaw and were fined

- violated the law on the speed of the recall and were fined

- had the government investigate the problem for an electronic flaw and report that Toyota had no electronic flaw

Oh, the horrible behavior by the government!

and imo they should sue our government for their fines back

Yes, they are entitled to their capped $16 million fines being returned, even though they are completely guilty of the wrongdoing the fines are for.

Or, you are such an anti-government idiot that you simply want them to 'sue' for the return of their fines simply because you hate government.

legal fees

Yes, there should be no legal costs to running a major corporation. Things would work great if there was no regulation and no lawyers to resolve issues.

and the loss of reputation they had to take on.

Yes, they should not lose any reputation for allowing flaws into their products, and then violating the laws on announcing the flaws and recalling unsafe cars.

If it seems like my only point is "the poster is an idiot", you are understanding.

Fuck the Feds and their douche bag ways of doing business.

Evidence that a flaw in democracy is that idiots harm the quality of government.

How about, screw idiot citizens and their douche bag way of championing harmful policies.

But your post is helpful in exposing further how baseless the ranters' views are.

Here's an idea, short of better quality in cars, which are going to have mistakes: follow the laws on notifying government of flaws, and recalling unsafe vehicles.

How to make the cars safer: effective regulation, which the poster rants against.

His argument boils down to nothing more than DEMANDING less car safety.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,439
211
106
Auto manufacturers historically fight every safety, CAFE legislation to come along but embrace protection like import tariffs.
It isn't a free market its regulated, and we as citizens benefit more from that than are harmed
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Auto manufacturers historically fight every safety, CAFE legislation to come along but embrace protection like import tariffs.
It isn't a free market its regulated, and we as citizens benefit more from that than are harmed

It's really such an abuse of the word 'free' to even have the phrase 'free market', as if a totally unregulated market would somehow be better because 'free' is good.

It's like saying that Americans aren't 'free' because there are criminal laws against murder and rape - as if being 'free' to do those things would be a good thing.

These sorts of trivial rhetorical issues actually seem to have a harmful effect on views.

How about we call the anti-regulatory people the 'pro-crime' ideologues?
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
Am I the only one concerned that NASA has turned into a consumer product safety commission, when it really should be tasked with getting the human race out into space?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Auto manufacturers historically fight every safety, CAFE legislation to come along but embrace protection like import tariffs.
It isn't a free market its regulated, and we as citizens benefit more from that than are harmed
This has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about extortion and theft by a government with a huge conflict of interest.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Am I the only one concerned that NASA has turned into a consumer product safety commission, when it really should be tasked with getting the human race out into space?

Hopefully; unless you can show that the efficient use of resources by the government in borrowing this help instead of spending more to get it actually hurt the space mission so much that it was unjustified, rather than the government having a good prioritization of its resources.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Am I the only one concerned that NASA has turned into a consumer product safety commission, when it really should be tasked with getting the human race out into space?

NASA has many roles, from making Muslim nations feel better to climate change research.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
I don't see how any of this directly relates to Atlas Shrugged other than an ordinary alleged abuse of government power. If you use a broad brush, technically just about anything the government ever does relates to Atlas Shrugged in some sort of a way.

This.

Who is John Galt? Who cares
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
This.

Who is John Galt? Who cares
You either skipped my response to this above or didn't read the book. Either way, here it is again:
It's exactly what was done to Rearden in the book: the government and its cronies weren't able to compete on level footing with him, so they used the heavy hand of government to take his intellectual property by force. The US government (and, therefore, GM) now has all of the source code and hardware designs for most of Toyota's lineup. I don't think it's a huge leap to see the parallels between the two cases.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Yet, people scream to high hell when the Chinese wanted some of our companies to do the same shit we did with Toyota. Toyota has been treated completely unfairly by our government and imo they should sue our government for their fines back, legal fees and the loss of reputation they had to take on. Fuck the Feds and their douche bag ways of doing business.

This sounds exactly like what China would do. Wait, this is the U.S. right?
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Craig already said I'm on his ignore list, so I'm only attacking a shadow. No harm no foul. He has nothing to add except his usual trolling crap based on his mindless support of his deity of choice (government).
Craig validly pointed out that the fines you characterize as unfair and unwarranted and which you think the government should be forced to refund were actually justified on the basis of the mechanical problems Toyota found with the pedal mechanism and their failure to rectify the problem in a timely manner.
You also added nothing. Either address the OP or leave.
All you add is your refusal to acknowledge Craig's point.

edit: removed inappropriate personal comment.
 
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