Yet another game developer driven out of her home by internet misogynists

[Subyman]

Nah, I'm not failing to make a point. The point is, the anonymity of the internet has created an environment that can be sour with no regard to who you are or what you are. Women are simply shocked that they're treated equally as poor on the internet as the men are because they're used to being put onto a pedestal in real life.

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-...dp/0143038702#

Norah Vincent went undercover for a year, living as a man. She had to stop because she couldn't handle how men treat each other. Typical male crap that makes men the strong-spirited sex that we are. It's one of the most honest writing I've ever read about the differences between the sexes. She did it very respectfully of each sex and, more importantly, her point of view is more legit because she actually stepped into the shoes to live the life.

I don't think women just discovered the internet. This lady is a software developer, so she's likely been a part of the internet since its early days. IMO, the guys saying it is no big deal run in the darkest places of the net on a regular basis or they play games that have sour communities so they think death threats or harassment are completely normal. I can tell you that I've been on the internet for over 16 years and have been a part of hundreds of communities in gaming, computer hardware, art, programming, car audio, cars, home theater, etc etc and have never been handed a death threat or have been bombarded with harassment.

I think it is a matter of perspective. To give these guys a pass for egregious harassment because it goes on all around you is only helping the internet to spiral further down into hateful oblivion.

You can certainly not agree with her, but pretty much everyone should be against her getting harassment. If you aren't then you missed some fundamental lessons in grade school about empathy, sympathy, and how to properly engage people in disagreements.

 

[Subyman]

If you are shocked that there are bad people in the world, then you two have been living under a rock. Surprise, some people are jerks.

Not all people.

Not even most people.

SOME people.

Unfortunately, as always, the loudest ones seem to get the most attention and the rest of us get painted with the same brush whether it's true or not.

Like Nebor said, if you've played games with hostile communities like StarCraft and League of Legends, then this is no surprise to you.

If you're living in your own little bubble and have no idea that internet anonymity brings out the worst in some people, well then maybe the internet isn't for you.

Let me ask you straight up, is it okay that she was harassed? I am not saying I am surprised, so your point is moot. I am saying the harassment is wrong. You guys are side debating the issue by saying there are bad people. Do you agree with the harassment?

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

edited: nm not looking to get banned lol

 

[ThinClient]

I don't think women just discovered the internet. This lady is a software developer, so she's likely been a part of the internet since its early days. IMO, the guys saying it is no big deal run in the darkest places of the net on a regular basis or they play games that have sour communities so they think death threats or harassment are completely normal. I can tell you that I've been on the internet for over 16 years and have been a part of hundreds of communities in gaming, computer hardware, art, programming, car audio, cars, home theater, etc etc and have never been handed a death threat or have been bombarded with harassment.

You're making more blanket statements about people you don't know. You're part of the problem.

I've never received death threats either, but I've seen dark places on the internet that match the dark places I've seen in real life. Some people are awful. You can't get away from them. There's no place you can go where you should expect not to have to deal with bad people.

I'm not saying you should expect to receive death threats, but you certainly shouldn't be surprised when you make a meme to generalize an entire group of people by the worst of them and then reel back in surprise when that same worst of them fire back at you.

I think it is a matter of perspective. To give these guys a pass for egregious harassment because it goes on all around you is only helping the internet to spiral further down into hateful oblivion.

Nobody's giving anyone a pass. That includes not giving a pass to the few loud ignorant women who scream foul and blame EVERY man for the BS that only a few are responsible for. These women are blowing up the subject and making it into something that it isn't all so they can play the victim game.

You can certainly not agree with her, but pretty much everyone should be against her getting harassment. If you aren't then you missed some fundamental lessons in grade school about empathy, sympathy, and how to properly engage people in disagreements.

I'm not supporting her being harassed, but I'm not surprised. However, she made her bed by using her own irrational hatred to stoke the fires of these other hate-mongers and now she can lie in it.

On the other hand, she herself needs to be taught how to properly engage people in disagreements. She also needs a freaking reality check because her misandry isn't doing anyone any favors.

 

[ThinClient]

Let me ask you straight up, is it okay that she was harassed? I am not saying I am surprised, so your point is moot. I am saying the harassment is wrong. You guys are side debating the issue by saying there are bad people. Do you agree with the harassment?

The harassment she's receiving isn't any more right than the garbage she was flinging long before she started receiving harassment about it.

 

[artemicion]

Yep. If you're in the public eye and you fire shots first, don't be surprised when the group you've shot at fires back.

She jumped onto the man-hating bandwagon, now she's taking heat and she doesn't know how to handle it other than scream louder that all men are evil.

She made criticisms and other people escalated the situation by making violent threats against her. That is a crime. It doesn't matter if she's retarded, it's still a crime. It doesn't matter that it happens to other people on the Internet, it's still a crime.

To me, what she said and what people said to her isn't the interesting part of the story. The interesting part of the story is that there is a significant number of people on the Internet who hear what happened to her, and their response is one of A) "She asked for it," B) "She's just doing it for attention," C) "I don't agree with her views so I don't care (but I care enough to post to let everyone know that I don't care)," D) "It happens all the time so I don't care (but I care enough to post to let everyone know that I don't care)," or E) "OMG WOMEN DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THREATS OF VIOLENCE. SACK UP."

FWIW, GamerGate is pretty retarded. (Please don't threaten me with violence or post my home address online. I will report it to the police and take shelter in a hotel, since I think that's a pretty reasonable response when an Internet random creepily finds my personal info and feels the need to threaten me and post my info online.) Everything about GamerGate is retarded, from the events that led up to it, to the response that resulted. I think Sarkeesian's podcasts are largely stupid and overly critical, but it's even MORE stupid that so many people had such emotionally charged responses about it. Gamers treat gaming as some PRECIOUS BOX that must be defended with fanatical zealotry whenever someone tries to put something in their PRECIOUS BOX that Gamers don't agree with. Who f-ing cares? It's video games, it's not world peace, or worldwide financial crisis, or Ebola outbreaks. We're really having some kind of Eastern Orthodox Gaming Church vs. Catholic Gaming Church Internet pissy fit over what the definition "gamer" is? Really? And people are so invested in this pissy fit that they are making threats of violence against the other side? Really? These people need to move out of their parents' basements.

 

[Nebor]

She made criticisms and other people escalated the situation by making violent threats against her. That is a crime. It doesn't matter if she's retarded, it's still a crime. It doesn't matter that it happens to other people on the Internet, it's still a crime.

To me, what she said and what people said to her isn't the interesting part of the story. The interesting part of the story is that there is a significant number of people on the Internet who hear what happened to her, and their response is one of A) "She asked for it," B) "She's just doing it for attention," C) "I don't agree with her views so I don't care (but I care enough to post to let everyone know that I don't care)," D) "It happens all the time so I don't care (but I care enough to post to let everyone know that I don't care)," or E) "OMG WOMEN DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THREATS OF VIOLENCE. SACK UP."

FWIW, GamerGate is pretty retarded. (Please don't threaten me with violence or post my home address online. I will report it to the police and take shelter in a hotel, since I think that's a pretty reasonable response when an Internet random creepily finds my personal info and feels the need to threaten me and post my info online.) Everything about GamerGate is retarded, from the events that led up to it, to the response that resulted. I think Sarkeesian's podcasts are largely stupid and overly critical, but it's even MORE stupid that so many people had such emotionally charged responses about it. Gamers treat gaming as some PRECIOUS BOX that must be defended with fanatical zealotry whenever someone tries to put something in their PRECIOUS BOX that Gamers don't agree with. Who f-ing cares? It's video games, it's not world peace, or worldwide financial crisis, or Ebola outbreaks. We're really having some kind of Eastern Orthodox Gaming Church vs. Catholic Gaming Church Internet pissy fit over what the definition "gamer" is? Really? And people are so invested in this pissy fit that they are making threats of violence against the other side? Really? These people need to move out of their parents' basements.

I cross-posted this with a link to your post to 4chan so you can get some more open and honest discussion of your arguments. :awe:

 

[Nebor]

Let me ask you straight up, is it okay that she was harassed? I am not saying I am surprised, so your point is moot. I am saying the harassment is wrong. You guys are side debating the issue by saying there are bad people. Do you agree with the harassment?

First, I'm not convinced that she's received any actual harassment. She has so much to gain from making it up that it calls the entire story into question.
Second, even if she is being harassed, I don't care. It's the equivalent of a woman who won't shut up about how hot it is outside. I know it's hot outside. It sucks. There's nothing anyone can do about it, so just shut. up.

 

[Subyman]

The harassment she's receiving isn't any more right than the garbage she was flinging long before she started receiving harassment about it.

Great, I'm glad to see this. From reading some of the stuff in this thread I got the impression that people were thinking that she somehow deserved it. As for some of these ladies playing the "victim", I find it hard to even make any statement on that. You'd have to know someone personally or have some decent hard evidence that these ladies are conspiring together to try to illicit extremist responses to set themselves up as victims. From what I've seen they've just been arguing their points. Perhaps the meme image is a punch below the belt, but is really rather tame for a meme image and makes some funny points.

I do think she is ill informed on parts of the issue. She specifically called out Giantbomb on MSNBC for being male dominated. The site certainly is, but they have one of the best gaming communities on the internet. Very down to earth. The discussions they've had on their forums have been really civil and some of the best I've read.

 

[Subyman]

First, I'm not convinced that she's received any actual harassment. She has so much to gain from making it up that it calls the entire story into question.
Second, even if she is being harassed, I don't care. It's the equivalent of a woman who won't shut up about how hot it is outside. I know it's hot outside. It sucks. There's nothing anyone can do about it, so just shut. up.

Well, that's a hell of a paradox lol. Anyone that's a victim is automatically assumed to be guilty in your world and they have to prove they didn't do it. That'd be a hilarious legal system lol. Your other comment is so strange as well. I guess you are a status quo kind of person.

 

[BoberFett]

I don't see anyone here saying she deserved it. Nobody is surprised by it, but nobody is supporting it either.

What bothers me the most about people like her, Quinn, Sarkeesian, and these other attention seekers is that they're projecting their own insecurities onto everyone, not because it's the truth, but because they will personally gain from it.

Statements like "Men don't understand. All women in tech deal with harassment and misogyny every day of their lives just because they're women."

Really? That's patently false, because the women I've worked with are some of the most respected. Of my four current direct reports, my applications admin is a female and the most respected person on my team. Very talented, dedicated and well liked by everyone she works with. I'm trying to figure out why these professional victims get to claim that they speak for everyone. This has held true at other companies as well, the female techs I've known are outstanding, and treated as such.

 

[motsm]

Skimming her online presence, it almost seems like she is interpreting guys treating her like they would treat other guys, as sexism. I can only imagine that a lot of game studios have social environments not too dissimilar from a group of friends like many of us here have, telling jokes at each others expense, and generally being comfortable saying horrible things. If you don't understand the way guys interact with each other, or are just generally a humorless ass, I could see problems arising. Of course this is obviously just speculation, and it's easily possible that she has experienced real sexism, but if that's the case, she seems to have thrown everyone under the bus for the actions of very few.

I'm not defending the threats and general nonsense however, just some detached thoughts.

 

[ThinClient]

Well, that's a hell of a paradox lol. Anyone that's a victim is automatically assumed to be guilty in your world and they have to prove they didn't do it. That'd be a hilarious legal system lol. Your other comment is so strange as well. I guess you are a status quo kind of person.

More like a realistic kind of person with actual real world experience to prove his statements, lol.

 

[ThinClient]

Skimming her online presence, it almost seems like she is interpreting guys treating her like they would treat other guys, as sexism. I can only imagine that a lot of game studios have social environments not too dissimilar from a group of friends like many of us here have, telling jokes at each others expense, and generally being comfortable saying horrible things. If you don't understand the way guys interact with each other, or are just generally a humorless ass, I could see problems arising. Of course this is obviously just speculation, and it's easily possible that she has experienced real sexism, but if that's the case, she seems to have thrown everyone under the bus for the actions of very few.

I'm not defending the threats and general nonsense however, just some detached thoughts.

Not detached at all. You're spot on and this is at the heart of the matter. Women demand equality, then cry when they get it because they realize that equality means stepping down off of their pedestal.

 

[Nebor]

Well, that's a hell of a paradox lol. Anyone that's a victim is automatically assumed to be guilty in your world and they have to prove they didn't do it. That'd be a hilarious legal system lol. Your other comment is so strange as well. I guess you are a status quo kind of person.

Anyone that accuses someone else (or a group of people) had better be prepared to prove it and be scrutinized.

 

[Veliko]

First, I'm not convinced that she's received any actual harassment. She has so much to gain from making it up that it calls the entire story into question.

That your first instinct is to assume that a woman is lying if she claims to have been harassed is very telling.

Second, even if she is being harassed, I don't care. It's the equivalent of a woman who won't shut up about how hot it is outside. I know it's hot outside. It sucks. There's nothing anyone can do about it, so just shut. up.

Just how many logins does Nehalem have?

 

[Fulle]

I can understand the perspective that it's unfair to "blame the victim", but don't people need to have some small level of personal accountability for their actions too?

It's unreasonable to expect to go through one's day, doing foolish, reckless things, expecting others to protect you.

 

[Nebor]

I can understand the perspective that it's unfair to "blame the victim", but don't people need to have some small level of personal accountability for their actions too?

It's unreasonable to expect to go through one's day, doing foolish, reckless things, expecting others to protect you.

Be prepared to be called a victim blamer. A woman who goes out wearing a g-string and pasties, does a bunch of drugs and gets drunk in a major metropolitan downtown area and is sexually assaulted is absolutely blameless.

I mean, you could probably wear an offensive t-shirt, some shorts and flip flops and stroll through Kandahar City unmolested, right? It would be wrong of the locals to kill you for your behavior, right?

 

[Nebor]

That your first instinct is to assume that a woman is lying if she claims to have been harassed is very telling.

Because the vast majority of women that complain about harassment are never actually harassed. It's always the whales and walruses complaining about "street harassment." The reality is that they see more attractive women getting attention, and they're jealous that they don't get that attention, so they seek to stigmatize and ban that attention.

Please, refer me to the hot white girl who pens articles complaining about how everyone opens doors for her, buys her coffee at starbucks, takes her out for dinners, takes her on vacations, pays her rent and buys her cars. Not gonna happen. You'll find articles railing against the "patriarchy" written by women who receive relatively few of the advantages of being women, so instead they either try to take the advantages that men have, or degrade the advantages that attractive women have.

And IIRC Nehelem has 3 accounts, none of which are mine. He hates women out of some sort of lack of understanding. I don't hate women at all.

 

[BoberFett]

That your first instinct is to assume that a woman is lying if she claims to have been harassed is very telling.



Just how many logins does Nehalem have?

Any chance your head will explode when you realize the irony of your post? We can hope.

 

[Veliko]

Be prepared to be called a victim blamer. A woman who goes out wearing a g-string and pasties, does a bunch of drugs and gets drunk in a major metropolitan downtown area and is sexually assaulted is absolutely blameless.

Yes, she is blameless.

I mean, you could probably wear an offensive t-shirt, some shorts and flip flops and stroll through Kandahar City unmolested, right? It would be wrong of the locals to kill you for your behavior, right?

Yes, it would be wrong for them to kill you; I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

 

[Veliko]

Because the vast majority of women that complain about harassment are never actually harassed.

Oh? Do you have some research that backs this up?

I don't hate women at all.

Your posts suggest otherwise.

 

[Nebor]

Yes, she is blameless.

I mean, you could probably wear an offensive t-shirt, some shorts and flip flops and stroll through Kandahar City unmolested, right? It would be wrong of the locals to kill you for your behavior, right?

Yes, it would be wrong for them to kill you; I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

If you cover yourself in chum, and go swimming in shark infested waters, are the sharks wrong for eating you?

 

[Theb]

'I was threatened on the Internet' is the new sex tape. It's a springboard. She's already done an interview and a roundtable. I'm sure there'll be more appearances.

It bugs me when one person does something and it gets pluralized to mysoginists or threats to sensationalize it. It was a terrible thing, but it was only one person.

 

[Veliko]

[ If you cover yourself in chum, and go swimming in shark infested waters, are the sharks wrong for eating you?

Whilst you're welcome to assume that you personally have no more intelligence or self control than a shark, don't expect everyone else to follow that same pattern of thought.