You are not buying games on Steam, you are only renting them. DRM is evil

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,376
762
126
This is another huge reason to stay away from always on DRM games--heck, any DRM that requires online activation of any type.

This is a bad move by Steam, as well as Square Enix.
At the very least, they should have offered a credit.

Just think what will happen when more companies tell Steam to do this, and the people that "bought" the game are SOL.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...e-order-of-war-challenge-from-user-libraries/

*Edit: The game in question is back in your steam library so you can still play it in SP mode.
They posted a update about it in that link.
Update: It appears that contrary to what I first believed, the single-player portion of the game—Order of War without the “Challenge”—is still available on Steam, and only the multi-player content has been removed.

That’s good, and changes some of the details in the above post. But my larger point still stands: Single-player games that have always-online DRM attached are inherently at the mercy of the servers’ longevity, having an internet connection to begin with, etc. That’s a problem that complicates the notion of digital ownership.
original quote:
It was bound to happen sooner or later. Valve’s online gaming distribution website Steam has removed what appears to be the very first game from user libraries. Many games have been removed from the Steam store, but have remained in user libraries. Individuals have had games removed for various reasons as well, but this appears to be the first game, in its entirety, removed from every user library.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,980
126
I find it amazing that refunds weren't given out. How can this even be legal? There needs to be a lawsuit here.

Still, Valve pulled a similar stunt with the Orange Box fiasco were they retroactively disabled previously working legitimate keys, without warning. The amazing part is that some people were actually defending it on the basis that you "must be dodgy" if you shop online.

This crap would've never gained traction if they hadn't blackmailed users as the only way to get HL2. But when EA tried the same stunt with BF3 and Origin, suddenly they were the bad guys.

I guess Steam is great because it has achievements, trading cards, and HL2 is awesome!
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,460
775
126
I don't know how it's legal, but it is. I don't remember which book it was, but I bought one off Amazon on my Kindle and it ended up getting removed. To do that and not give a refund's uber shitty.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
The book removed on Amazon was ironically 1984 by George Orwell. Its funny because after they did that I stopped buying Kindle books, I literally just 100% stopped. I was already buying the grand majority of my books without DRM from elsewhere but that was the push I needed to remind me that Amazon didn't have my interests at heart.

I have felt this was coming from Steam for a long time, it was inevitable. Even if people had found a way to play the game (cracking it) steam still feels the need to remove it from their libraries. This will continue, Steam will gradually purge games, GFWL being turned off later this year will be another point where games get removed.

The reality is DRM of all kinds is bad for all of us, it seems most people need to be ripped off before they realise this, but its kind of already too late. Steam is a horrible concept, you are paying full price for a rental that they can remove at any time for any reason. Worse than that if you complain they can just cut your entire account off and you loose the entire collection. Even worse than that is its extremely hard to avoid steam even if you don't buy from them, many games install only with Steam and you have no choice but to use it and accept their DRM. Simply activities like lending a game to a friend or another family member are now impossible and yet that is a completely reasonable thing to be doing.

I have games I still play that I bought back in 1990's, but the games I buy today I doubt will be playable in 20 years.
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,660
198
106
Square shut the game servers down which caused the game to no longer function. Steam removed a game that would no longer work from a user's library.

Does anyone really think these are the same things? Or am I the only one that read the article?

-KeithP
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Who knows there might be a crack out there that allows the game to still be played. Square turning off the DRM server != to the game not being playable. The legality of such a crack is dodgy but honestly what square has done is legally questionable as well. Steam didn't need to delete the game, but it tells you they are going to.
 

AdamantC

Senior member
Apr 19, 2011
478
0
76
To be fair, with the servers shutdown, the game would have been impossible to play anyways. This isn’t simply because it’s an online-only game. In fact, Order of War: Challenge has 18 single-player missions as well. But due to always-online DRM, even the single-player portion of the game requires the servers to be up and running.

Oh noes! They removed a game nobody can play anymore! It's the end of Steam! RIOT RIOT RIOT!!!
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,980
126
Square shut the game servers down which caused the game to no longer function. Steam removed a game that would no longer work from a user's library.
The point here is that a patch to allow the single-player version to be played offline should've been issued, or a refund should've been given. You don't just silently kill-switch a game paying customers have purchased.

Oh noes! They removed a game nobody can play anymore! It's the end of Steam! RIOT RIOT RIOT!!!
I'm sure you'll feel exactly the same way if one of your Steam titles vanishes without warning from your library. :awe:
 

Fire&Blood

Platinum Member
Jan 13, 2009
2,331
16
81
-Square Enix and Wargaming should have patched the game to allow offline play prior to shutting down the servers. No excuse.

-Steam deleting local files? We granted them the right to do that when we installed the client. Steam could have left the game libraries intact despite them being useless and they would look 100% innocent but in a way, I am glad they are "violating" hard drives, reminds people what these DRM platforms are capable of.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Wow, who ever saw such issues coming.
Give a company control of your games. Also require internet.
Invest most of your gaming catalogue in such a service (as many people seem to do).
Have all your eggs in one basket.

Assume that in the long term nothing will go wrong. Because that's a safe plan!
 

thedosbox

Senior member
Oct 16, 2009
961
0
0
Square shut the game servers down which caused the game to no longer function. Steam removed a game that would no longer work from a user's library.

Does anyone really think these are the same things? Or am I the only one that read the article?

The second was a consequence of the first, presumably because SE were too lazy to issue a patch to allow for the SP campaign to run offline.

And since the move to digital distribution, this doesn't surprise me. It's also why I never buy games at full price anymore.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
106
This has always been the downside of "locked" online distribution which requires online checks (as opposed to more "open" digital distribution like GOG).

Amazon did exactly the same thing with Kindle's in the past (deleted them off the user's device). Of course with Kindle's you can safeguard against it by disabling wireless (enable Aircraft mode) and downloading purchased books to disk then copying it over via USB (a perfectly legal option made available for those with no wireless router and thus no direct syncing capability):-
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/oct/22/amazon-wipes-customers-kindle-deletes-account

No such legal option with Steam though. Meanwhile, pirates continue to steal & play the single player aspect of the "wiped game" perfectly well with cracked files and the only people affected suffer are paying customers... Not going to say "I told you so", but a lot of people predicted something like this years down the line when Steam first came out only to get shouted down with "Don't be silly, they'd never do that".

If you read Steam's T&C they do indeed have get-out clauses that allow them to potentially erase your entire collection if they wanted for any reason "at their sole discretion", which you've already "agreed" to along with waiving your rights to a class-action lawsuit for wiping all your games by revoking your "privilege" to get their "permission" to play them:- :whiste:

"2. Ordering Goods

In addition to all other rights available to Valve including those set forth in these Purchase Terms, Valve reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to terminate your account, refuse service to you, or cancel orders."


7. : DISCLAIMERS; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY; NO GUARANTEES

IN NO EVENT WILL VALVE BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE, EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, OR ANY OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH THE GOODS, OR THE DELAY OR INABILITY TO USE THE GOODS, EVEN IN THE EVENT OF VALVE’S OR ITS AFFILIATES’ FAULT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), STRICT LIABILITY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, OR BREACH OF VALVE’S WARRANTY AND EVEN IF VALVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THESE LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS REGARDING DAMAGES APPLY EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE RECOMPENSE."


10. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER

YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF THE VALVE STORE, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE GOODS. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY"

...Followed by...

"YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU AND VALVE ARE GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND TO HAVE A TRIAL BEFORE A JUDGE OR JURY."

...and...

"YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA’s PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE.
"
http://store.valvesoftware.com/terms_and_conditions.php

I'm no legal expert, but "in its sole discretion" usually means no law has to be broken (ie, counterfeiting / copyright infringement) for them to shut you out of every game in your library and delete your account. They could do it for any reason such as request of one or multiple game developers (even years later), or simply because supporting older games are "too much hassle" several years down the line (even if they are 100% single player games that use no online servers or resources whatsoever), etc. Steam has enabled games developers to entirely take away your games at any point in time long after you bought them.

You've also "agreed" to region locking too. Eg:-

"Retail copies [of Deus Ex: Human Revolution] sold in the UK will only activate on UK Steam accounts"
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/17/deus-ex-human-revolution-is-region-locked/
http://www.ghacks.net/2013/11/21/steam-region-lock-guide/

So if you emigrated or lived / worked abroad at any point, half your Steam games could become useless overnight. Something long known to happen to Russian / Eastern European Steam users who move to Western Europe.

"The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (72850)
Purchase: The RU version of this game cannot be bought in your region.
Play: Even if you bought and activated the RU version of this game with a VPN, it cannot be played in your region"
http://www.regionlocks.com/

It might be more "hassle" for some, but I'm glad I bought 90% of my "PC golden era" games on CD / DVD / GOG that will be playable for potentially decades regardless of what the original developer / retailer says, thinks, wants or does. I agree with thedosbox, you'd have to be a complete fool to pay full price for what are essentially rented games with a whole boatload of geographical & "support time" based limitations, and an open-ended revocation policy.
 
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maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
What is needed in the nascent digital age are laws against this.

Additionally, this seems like a good place to throw this in, a Gamer's Rights Act is also needed that protects owners of characters in MMOs. That is, people put hundreds/thousands of hours into MMO characters only to be banned for dubious quasi-political reasons, or for hacking without any form of due process/real investigation and the average person doesn't have the finances to fight it in court. Worse is when the gaming company fails to quality control their product and bans for "exploits", wherein the definition of exploit is "anything we didn't intend". If the gaming company allows an action to be performed with in-game actions only (ie, not hacking the game) then they should bear the responsibility of fixing it without banning. That is, if the developers accidentally put in a bug that if you sell to a vendor, buy it back then sell it to the vendor next to him he gives you 10 times the gold, then they need to fix that. If they need to go into the account and take away all the duplicated gold that's fine, but they don't do that, they usually ban.
 
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NickelPlate

Senior member
Nov 9, 2006
652
13
81
Oh noes! They removed a game nobody can play anymore! It's the end of Steam! RIOT RIOT RIOT!!!

That's what I was thinking. No big deal really. In so far as the thread title is concerned it's pretty much always been that way. Even in the days of buying games in retail stores on disks. If one reads the EULA (which nobody does), most software you purchase regardless of delivery or media only grants you the right to use it within the stated terms. There is no ownership of any kind on the part of the buyer.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
That's what I was thinking. No big deal really. In so far as the thread title is concerned it's pretty much always been that way. Even in the days of buying games in retail stores on disks. If one reads the EULA (which nobody does), most software you purchase regardless of delivery or media only grants you the right to use it within the stated terms. There is no ownership of any kind on the part of the buyer.



Too bad the law and consumer rights supercede the TOS and EULA. The companies can claim anything they want but if the law says otherwise guess who wins?

The more non-physical media distribution becomes the more pressure to create more legislation. The question becomes which group gets to the legislature first: consumer advocates or corporate shills?

It's too bad many gamers are defending practices that hurt them to protect company bottom lines. I at least hope some of you own the stock...
 

NickelPlate

Senior member
Nov 9, 2006
652
13
81
Too bad the law and consumer rights supercede the TOS and EULA. The companies can claim anything they want but if the law says otherwise guess who wins?

The more non-physical media distribution becomes the more pressure to create more legislation. The question becomes which group gets to the legislature first: consumer advocates or corporate shills?

It's too bad many gamers are defending practices that hurt them to protect company bottom lines. I at least hope some of you own the stock...

Well I'm not an attorney but it seems there's nothing for the consumer protection laws to protect. Most EULAs state that by using the software you agree to the terms set forth therein, however one sided that might be. All of those little "I Accept" buttons that everyone clicks seals the deal does it not? I'm not advocating it's good practice, just making an observation and I agree it's good for the corporations not for the consumers.
 

stahlhart

Super Moderator Graphics Cards
Dec 21, 2010
4,273
77
91
I take comfort in knowing that I can always fire up a game of Doom at 5,000fps.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
I find it amazing that refunds weren't given out. How can this even be legal? There needs to be a lawsuit here.

Still, Valve pulled a similar stunt with the Orange Box fiasco were they retroactively disabled previously working legitimate keys, without warning. The amazing part is that some people were actually defending it on the basis that you "must be dodgy" if you shop online.

This crap would've never gained traction if they hadn't blackmailed users as the only way to get HL2. But when EA tried the same stunt with BF3 and Origin, suddenly they were the bad guys.

I guess Steam is great because it has achievements, trading cards, and HL2 is awesome!

That Orange Box fiasco was something else and not similar in any way whatsoever. It was people buying the keys from overseas sellers at dirt cheap prices. Those keys are/were only to be sold in that region due to how much cheaper they were they due to different economies and such. So Valve disabled those keys from that region that were not being activated/played from that region. You want to get mad at someone there, get mad at the key sellers that were not upfront with the buyers or hell get mad at the buyers for trying to work the system.

Now Steam simply makes redeeming and actually playing with those keys that are dirty cheap (in the vast majority of cases from Russia/Ukraine area) not possible unless you have an IP from that region. Also, it is up to the publisher if they wish to region lock their game to start with.





As for the OP post. It is shitty and should of been left on your account still, but in the end it is a SE problem as they put the shitty always on DRM in place and with no offline patch, the game was useless in its current state. Both parties messed up, but one was a effect from the other. SE should of put out an offline patch, but they don't give a fuck, Steam shouldn't have removed the game from people's libraries even though the game is 100% useless now.

Oh and btw, pretty much all software you buy you are just "renting" it and don't own it
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
Well I'm not an attorney but it seems there's nothing for the consumer protection laws to protect. Most EULAs state that by using the software you agree to the terms set forth therein, however one sided that might be. All of those little "I Accept" buttons that everyone clicks seals the deal does it not? I'm not advocating it's good practice, just making an observation and I agree it's good for the corporations not for the consumers.





No, some do some don't. It will be adjudicated again and again with cases coming up like the "fine" for negative reviews. The EU has ruled people have the right to resell even digital only games. So one court ruling has completely tossed most EULAs/TOS out the window there.

Will that make it back to the US? I don't know, but it will need to be further addressed when people no longer own physical copies of media and the first sale doctrine, that however was largely eroded by the 9th circuit so it will take more legislation to address. That's why it's important for gamers/consumers to get involved with their representatives and change laws/create laws to protect the rights of consumers in regards to buying digital only software.

At some point every piece of media we use from music to movies to games will not have physical copies. Giving these companies the ability to simply turn off your service and remove the item you paid for is a scary possibility. Many in the media industry get the biggest hardon for making us buy a license to use their product on each and every device. Can you imagine a world where when a new piece of technology like a tablet to a phone to a laptop each requires you to buy the movie to use it on it? Talk about fleecing the public.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
It was not Steams fault, don't blame them at all. It is not Steam job to provide 3rd party patches for games to work if a publisher shuts down a server.

You know all the Alpha games on steam right now? Lots during the flash sells? None of those games guarantee a finished game, lots come right out and say it "This game may be abandoned and no refunds give".
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Well Valve always said if they go under they'd unlock everybodies stuff on Steam.
Of course, that was with the assumption you'd actually still HAVE the games.


as to the other issue: I really wish there was a way to completely block paid alphas from my shopping experience. I dont even wanna see them on the list. Ever.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
It was not Steams fault, don't blame them at all. It is not Steam job to provide 3rd party patches for games to work if a publisher shuts down a server.

You know all the Alpha games on steam right now? Lots during the flash sells? None of those games guarantee a finished game, lots come right out and say it "This game may be abandoned and no refunds give".



It's not their fault the game is no longer playable due to the online DRM, it is their fault for the PR backlash with removing it from people's libraries. I don't see the big advantage Valve gained by doing this. Had the game simply not worked nobody would have given two squirts about this. So in that sense Valve has created this story by taking unnecessary actions against the owner's libraries.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
106
That's what I was thinking. No big deal really. In so far as the thread title is concerned it's pretty much always been that way. Even in the days of buying games in retail stores on disks. If one reads the EULA (which nobody does), most software you purchase regardless of delivery or media only grants you the right to use it within the stated terms. There is no ownership of any kind on the part of the buyer.

It's still not the same as on physical disks, the developer didn't try (because they can't) to retroactively "uncreate" the game and wipe everyone's copy years later after they couldn't be bothered to patch it. Historically, on most disks, there is nothing whatsoever to prevent you from installing / playing the game from an original disc regardless of what theoretical legal "privileges" the EULA "permits" surrounding the ability to replicate the discs. Likewise, arguing over "ownership" also matters far less when you have a physical disc as it doesn't affect usability in the same way as a centralized distribution & control system requiring online authentication. Only in recent years has "limited installs" existed complete with consumer backlash after realising authentication servers aren't going to be be around for every game 10-20 years down the line and that many people in 2013 still happily play many 1990's games.

Prior to this most disc copy protection was only literal CD / DVD copy protection, not "legal install & run" prevention. Before that in the age of 1.44MB 3.5" floppy discs which many pre-Windows 95 DOS games came on, the copy protection often came in the form of "what's the first word on line 5 of paragraph 3 on page 6 of the included manual" or some kind of code-wheel, which still didn't prevent you from running a legal game, just made it hard to casually copy a floppy disc without having to photocopy the whole manual or replicate a physical code-wheel.

Even many older games with mild "offline copy protection" (ie, you only needed a CD inserted to play) ended up patching that mild DRM out after the main run of sales / in GOTY editions (The Witcher, Operation Flashpoint, Neverwinter Nights, etc). This is exactly where the problem lies - some people have become so incredibly docile like sheep that a "necessary evil" (DRM) plus increasing laziness of developers has morphed into something people are actively defending even when they're getting openly screwed over by it...

Remote Steam deletions are different in that there is a technological limitation actively trying to not just prevent you using the original of something you've legally purchased for reasons that have nothing to do with copy protection or piracy, but attempt to wipe it out of existence (almost like a virus). There simply is no equivalent with physical media as it would be like remotely erasing the laser pits on an original CD / DVD / Blu-Ray via telekinesis without warning or causing the ink on the pages of a book to disappear purely because the original publisher didn't want to sell new copies anymore, or continue to run authentication mechanisms which they themselves insisted on in the first place.

And many EULA's that "demand" this & that are legally invalid in actual practise regardless of the intimidating sounding threats. What EULA's threaten and what courts actually decide are often two completely different things, (especially outside the USA):-

"European Courts Rule In Favor Of Consumers Reselling Downloaded Games"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregvoa...avor-of-consumers-reselling-downloaded-games/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

"The first sale in the EU of a copy of a computer program by the copyright holder or with his consent exhausts the right of distribution of that copy in the EU. A rightholder who has marketed a copy in the territory of a Member State of the EU thus loses the right to rely on his monopoly of exploitation in order to oppose the resale of that copy… The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website." - European Court of Justice, July 3rd, 2012
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

It was not Steams fault, don't blame them at all. It is not Steam job to provide 3rd party patches for games to work if a publisher shuts down a server.

They are partly to blame for having Terms of Service include the ability to arbitrarily delete games for reasons that have nothing to do with abuse. It's not Steam's fault the developer didn't issue a patch, but they are no innocent bystander in this by actively wiping games and not just leaving them installed and potentially community patchable or turned into "abandonware" a year later.

You know all the Alpha games on steam right now? Lots during the flash sells? None of those games guarantee a finished game, lots come right out and say it "This game may be abandoned and no refunds give".

That's not the same as you buy an alpha / beta build game knowing in advance it's unfinished.
 
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Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
In the back of my mind, this has always been a concern with Steam, as with any other digital online distribution. Unfortunately, now one does not have much choice, in that even if you buy the physical media, you still are dependent on online servers to activate. And as someone else said, I have pretty much decided to not buy any games at full price again, since Steam actually make such good sales available relatively quickly for most games. So that cancels out somewhat the fact that you do not have full control of your games.
 
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