You are not buying games on Steam, you are only renting them. DRM is evil

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

lilrayray69

Senior member
Apr 4, 2013
501
1
76
Anyone else have trouble with Steam yesterday disconnecting from its servers?

I get why they do the DRM I guess, with only distributing digital copies. At least they do a lot of sales...but at the same time the sales sometimes frustrate me, like you'll buy Borderlands 2 one day for $12 then the next day it's $8. It kind of discourages me from ever buying anything because I just assume it will soon be on sale for even less.
 

goobernoodles

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2005
1,820
2
81
Anyone else have trouble with Steam yesterday disconnecting from its servers?

I get why they do the DRM I guess, with only distributing digital copies. At least they do a lot of sales...but at the same time the sales sometimes frustrate me, like you'll buy Borderlands 2 one day for $12 then the next day it's $8. It kind of discourages me from ever buying anything because I just assume it will soon be on sale for even less.
Yes. I made a post on the last page.

Both Origin and Steam got DDOS'd (perhaps Battle.net as well?) last night. Supposedly from two different nerd groups. Odd no one else has mentioned it.

This guy is a piece of shit: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...treamer-should-answer-for-server-outages.aspx
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I guess it depends on whether you think some things are worth saving. Technological innovation has done more to create defunct software than any DRM as of yet. Emulator's allow us to peer into the past, but they can't reproduce the here and now.

I'm not about to offer an opinion as to whether something is art or not, but I will say that if something is lost because of actions done by the owner, then that is the way it is. You might see the actions you describe as evil, but any attempt to intercept and enforce values contrary to the owners is also evil, no matter how well intentioned. Moral relativism is key here. They are no more right or wrong for wanting to destroy it than you are for saving it.

I agree with your intent. I just disagree with you calling software companies actions evil just because they are trying to make a dollar in a fashion in which you disagree. As I said in a earlier post, we need new laws that deal specifically with this. The DMCA was too narrowly defined as written and can't properly address these issues.

You used the term "owner". I don't subscribe to the notion that an idea can be owned. Once it's out there, it's free for anyone to use. That's the beauty of an idea, there's no scarcity. Physical goods are valuable because they're scarce. Ideas have value because they're not scarce. Copyright and patents are a compromise, giving the person who first documents their thinking of an idea to a short monopoly period where they can control the idea. An incentive to share the idea. But the concept of an idea being locked up with an "owner", potentially never to be seen again for all time is also evil, unfortunately it's where we're heading with neverending copyright.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,361
5,023
136

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Varga is going to get a visit from the party van, that's for sure. And hopefully become an ex Eagle Scout very soon.....

The best part is he won't get the money he made during this stream. Twitch won't have to pay him for all the new subscribers and ad revenue generated when he was willfully participating in illegal activities. So his "oh, this was a business move" attitude won't gain him anything.
 

Rinaun

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2005
1,195
1
81
The best part is he won't get the money he made during this stream. Twitch won't have to pay him for all the new subscribers and ad revenue generated when he was willfully participating in illegal activities. So his "oh, this was a business move" attitude won't gain him anything.

So what you are saying is twitch will pull a quick one, use him to make money and let him hose himself?

Yeah, sounds like good ol' america. Don't blame the company entitling people with a digital pulpit; blame the 20 year old immature kid who was playing lord of the lemurs for a few hours. Blaming twitch when they could easily stop it at any point? NAAAAAH even though people probably reported him.

Just an example: Twitch had a streamer chick trolling people a few days ago and she wasn't playing games for 30-45 minutes. We reported her and all the sudden she starts freaking out due to the reports, hops back into game, leaves the screen idling and continues on her attempted trolling skit/etc. We report her again and nothing happened.

I'm lost as to how people think companies are intrinsically good by nature; this isn't the 50's anymore. "If you don't have money or if there is no money to be made off of your information/you, please get the f$#K out of our way" is the new motto.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
So what you are saying is twitch will pull a quick one, use him to make money and let him hose himself?

Yeah, sounds like good ol' america. Don't blame the company entitling people with a digital pulpit; blame the 20 year old immature kid who was playing lord of the lemurs for a few hours. Blaming twitch when they could easily stop it at any point? NAAAAAH even though people probably reported him.

Just an example: Twitch had a streamer chick trolling people a few days ago and she wasn't playing games for 30-45 minutes. We reported her and all the sudden she starts freaking out due to the reports, hops back into game, leaves the screen idling and continues on her attempted trolling skit/etc. We report her again and nothing happened.

I'm lost as to how people think companies are intrinsically good by nature; this isn't the 50's anymore. "If you don't have money or if there is no money to be made off of your information/you, please get the f$#K out of our way" is the new motto.

Wtf are you on about? Exactly how many streams do you think are going on at once and how many employees of twitch are there? And, how long does it take to investigate reports to ban someone? You act as if as soon as you report someone, they should be immediately banned. This isn't Nazi Germany...

The guy who was streaming the DDoS stated he was trying to do what was best for his "business", and Twitch will ban him and not pay him for any of the revenue he gained from his illegal actions. Yet, of course, we should blame Twitch for it because they didn't have some system in place to automatically analyze every feed being streamed and ban immediate action!
 

Rinaun

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2005
1,195
1
81
Wtf are you on about? Exactly how many streams do you think are going on at once and how many employees of twitch are there? And, how long does it take to investigate reports to ban someone? You act as if as soon as you report someone, they should be immediately banned. This isn't Nazi Germany...

Uh, he was doing this for a long time.

This went on for hours, and rather than stop streaming, Varga watched his viewer count skyrocket past 100,000. All the while, he displayed advertisements and raked in new subscribers at $4.99 per month per membership. Varga put his channel in "sub mode," which means that the only way to participate in the conversation via chat is to pay.
People reported him in the channel. Lets be realistic here and think about how much twitch gets from it's partners. I don't have the numbers on me but I can bet you they are definately in Twitch's favor.
The guy who was streaming the DDoS stated he was trying to do what was best for his "business", and Twitch will ban him and not pay him for any of the revenue he gained from his illegal actions. Yet, of course, we should blame Twitch for it because they didn't have some system in place to automatically analyze every feed being streamed and ban immediate action!
Uh, yeah. It's called moderation. You seriously don't think that twitch doesn't have a staff of moderators....do you? It took less than 10 minutes after we reported a user on twitch before they had sent the streamer a message to fix said issue (not playing games). They respond very fast, but obviously if it's not something super clear-cut of course they will side with leaving the customer alone and pocketing money. If there was any realistic risk to Twitch, they would have shut him off but obviously they deemed it wiser to leave him online and just blame him as he signed the ToS which makes him more liable than twitch for any damages resulting in his streaming on twitch.

Twitch wants money and will use their TOS clause to negate any charges against themselves unto the streamer. People will blame the dude even though while he was encouraging them and being a total douche, twitch should have just shut him down like they have in numerous other situations. Too bad this stream got huge and raked in money for twitch; it was incredibly huge and I saw it listed but went to watch CS:GO. If you wonder why a streamer was allowed to encourage DDOS on servers on one of the most popular twitch streams online for 1 hour+ while being reported, the answer is "because we're getting paid and theres zero risk". As I said, good ol' American legal system. If a company took any legal action againt a stream, I can bet you Twitch is 100% covered unless it's proven twitch moderators knew it was illegal or some other legal loophole.

Apply this to a large portion of companies today; they'd rather skirt doing the right thing and just hide behind legalities or even legal trickery to make a quick buck. Them turning off the stream would have lost twitch a trivial amount of money in the long run and not crippled an entire infrastructure for half the day.
 
Last edited:

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,274
8,199
136
Actually in the larger scheme of things, DRM could be considered evil. Right now when all we're losing is a few crappy games that nobody plays, you're right. No big deal.

But imagine 100 years from now. How would things work if DRM had existed 100 years ago, and all the classic B&W films were locked up behind some ancient DRM scheme. The actual owner of the IP has long since been lost, nobody knows who actually owns it anymore after numerous mergers and acquisitions. The physical original has been lost, tossed in a box when the new owner took over. The DRM technology itself stopped working 75 years ago because the company that ran it went defunct. The code for the DRM was lost, and due to laws against reverse engineering of DRM, nobody bothered to do anything about it.

That's a real thing, we've already seen it. Films lost because the only copy was in a dusty box in some movie studio basement. If a music/movie/game studio goes out of business, and the originals are lost, with the only copies being those in distribution littered with DRM, what then?

I would say that intentionally using technology that is specifically designed lock up vast swaths of our culture, with the very real possibility of losing it entirely, is in fact evil.


I agree with this point. Though I'd still stop short of using the word 'evil'. I'd go with 'a very bad idea with negative consequences for everyone'. I'd save the e-word for child murderers and their ilk.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
You used the term "owner". I don't subscribe to the notion that an idea can be owned. Once it's out there, it's free for anyone to use. That's the beauty of an idea, there's no scarcity. Physical goods are valuable because they're scarce. Ideas have value because they're not scarce. Copyright and patents are a compromise, giving the person who first documents their thinking of an idea to a short monopoly period where they can control the idea. An incentive to share the idea. But the concept of an idea being locked up with an "owner", potentially never to be seen again for all time is also evil, unfortunately it's where we're heading with neverending copyright.

It depends on context. Intrinsic versus non-intrinsic. I'm in complete agreement when it comes to concepts or ideas. Even the supreme court says that no one can patent a mathmatical formula that can be done by a person without the help of a machine. In my view that extends to books or music that can be shared through normal human interaction.

Where the catch-22 comes is through machine language. When we think of games we think of graphics and sound, be in the real world those images don't exist. They write down a language and we buy a machine to translate. Without the translator, the code is worthless. This is why we "license" software. We as end users can never own something that doesn't technically exist in reality. We pay for the ability for to decode it.

When we buy physical media, we purchase and own the media which is why fair use exists. However, the ability to decode the language on the disc is licensed and thus the quandary. The DMCA has become antiquated in this sense. It only really speaks in terms of physical media. Currently, digital distribution truly is unregulated and horribly overburdended by developer/publisher driven restrictions. The user has virtually no rights.

Again, please don't misunderstand me. I'm in agreement that DRM is horrid. In my opinion, as long as the user is able to reproduce the platform that particular software is designed for, that software should be able to be used in perpetuity.

Declaring something as evil implies malice. However, in this case you would be hard pressed to prove that the intent is to do harm in the sense that you convey. What they do is well meant if completely misguided, but they aren't sitting in a back room trying to think of ways to publish software now for the purpose of f**king everyone over 15 years from now.

Moral philosophy is always a touchy subject because there are many viable answers, of which each could have illicit strong points of view.

It's just weird that you use the term "idea" as if every game made has the same cultural siginificance as the painting of the Sistine Chapel. Some games will eventually attain cultural significance and will be protected by organizations such as the Smithsonian, in spite of DRM. The vast majority of them will end up like any number of direct to video Jean-Claude Van Damme movies....destined to by swallowed by the toilet bowl of time.
 
Last edited:

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I still :heart: Steam.

Valve can't patch games, that's up to the publishers.

1 game, made unplayable by the publisher's server requirement NOT by Steam itself.

Maybe they could have changed the "Play" button to a "Contact Squenix and ask them to make this playable again" button but that's a lot of extra work.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
OP should edit the first post since it's completely wrong and misleading people because the article was mistaken before it was updated.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Everybody is saying how awful this is but nobody offers a solution.

IMO if a game requires to be online like Diablo III and down the road they take its servers down they should be able to remotely unlock this requirement. Then everyone wins.

However for online games with dedicated servers which are hosted by a company obviously these cannot be maintained indefinitely, so at the end of the game's life yes it will die and at that point what purpose is served to keep a non-functioning game in a library?

Lon into the future the only video games we will have are up to date current ones and then all the old ones because they can run independently.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Everybody is saying how awful this is but nobody offers a solution.

IMO if a game requires to be online like Diablo III and down the road they take its servers down they should be able to remotely unlock this requirement. Then everyone wins.

However for online games with dedicated servers which are hosted by a company obviously these cannot be maintained indefinitely, so at the end of the game's life yes it will die and at that point what purpose is served to keep a non-functioning game in a library?

Lon into the future the only video games we will have are up to date current ones and then all the old ones because they can run independently.

One thing that isn't a solution, just a piece of common sense, is to spread your risk by not buying all your games on Steam.
If you were investing in shares/etc, you wouldn't put all of your money into one company that you didn't have control of, because it's risky.

Why risk giving stewardship of all of your games to one vendor when you don't have to.
If a game doesn't require Steam, why buy it on Steam when you could buy it elsewhere? e.g. if you get a uPlay game, there's zero point getting it on Steam because you still have to use uPlay as well, or buy it DRM free if you can, e.g. the Witcher.

It's just common sense not to put all of your eggs in one basket.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I think books and some movies are fair comparisons.

Think of all the book burnings and things that were lost over the years because someone decided "we didn't need them anymore" or didn't want someone else to get their hands on them etc etc. Think of the ones we consider greats from 100's even thousands of years ago. They more than likely would not exist today or would be under lock and key until some conglomerate thought they could make money off of it. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for people BREAKING LAWS, there are many works of art, books etc that would NOT exist today. So, when people get all high and mighty about intellectual property, and piracy, etc..I really can't help but laugh and note how short sighted and narrow minded they are.

IP to a publisher are simply a means to make money. They do not care about the history or the work itself or even the creators. It's just a number to add at the end of the month. Once those numbers don't add up to enough, they toss it aside.

Copyright needs a fix. Plain and simple. It no longer protects the creators. It's an infinite money machine for the publishers/owners (who are very rarely the creators). The question is...and always has been...how long is long enough? Should Disney be sitting on 100 year old IP's or IP's they bought up and never owned originally? A statute of limitations needs to be put back into effect.

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but it all really revolves around the same subject. As we move further into a "can't hold it in your hand after you bought it" digital age. Who has the say when and how you use the digital content you paid for? I am in the camp of I really didn't start using Steam until you could get games for $5-10. That seemed like a fair trade for games I probably wouldn't be able to do anything with in 10 years time. I have shelves of games from 15-20 years ago that I could play now if i wanted. I don't see that being the case with LEGAL digital distribution.

No nonsense, piracy is actually what will keep them alive long after the publishers have buried them.
 
Last edited:

T9D

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2001
5,320
6
0
It bothers me a little but since I usually only buy my steam games for like ridiculously cheap prices when they are on a huge sale I can let it slide. I just hope I've thoroughly played the game already and it's a past memory before it get's dumped. Let's hope it doesn't happen often though.

I just WISH I could borrow my brothers steam games. He has hundreds he buys and never really plays then moves to another one. What a waste. I could seriously be playing all his steam games and never buy another again.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
OP should edit the first post since it's completely wrong and misleading people because the article was mistaken before it was updated.

Good point, the article now says this:

Update: It appears that contrary to what I first believed, the single-player portion of the game—Order of War without the “Challenge”—is still available on Steam, and only the multi-player content has been removed.


<font size = eleventy>

So Steam only removed the multiplayer, that required a server that no longer exists

</font>
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
Pretty interesting article relating to the DRM debate.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...amer-resistance-to-drm-is-stronger-than-ever/

It's since been proven in many arenas that pirates are willing to pay for computer games if they feel that the price is equivalent to the game's value, but this was new and crazy thinking at the time. From there, Michal and Marcin dreamed bigger: if it worked in Poland, why shouldn't it work worldwide? Going DRM-free was a natural consequence of this train of thought: if you trusted your customers to pay for reasonably priced games, why would you want to use copy protection and treat gamers like potential thieves?

DRM is an ineffectual tool (games are still being pirated at launch&#8212;if not earlier!&#8212;even with state-of-the-art DRM systems) and it antagonizes paying customers, because effectively the pirate is getting a less constricted gaming experience. This is crazy. Our belief in trusting and respecting our gamers who are part of GOG.com remains at the core of how we approach our customers.

Wired.co.uk: Have you been tracking data or researching how DRM-free gaming impacts sales?

Rambourg: We haven't been conducting any research ourselves, but we are obviously up to date with findings from other companies. You could argue that both music and publishing industries are slowly coming to terms with the fact that removing DRM actually boosts sales. Tor Books shared a rather convincing analysis of sales numbers in their first year after dropping DRM entirely, proving that removing copy protection had no effect on sales whatsoever.

There is an even more recent research under way that seems to prove that dropping DRM in the music industry resulted in an up to 41 percent increase in sales. GOG.com's DRM-free, day-one release of The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings, a AAA+ game by any standards, is a great case study. At release, the version widely available on torrent sites was not the DRM-free GOG version but the one that posed any sort of challenge to the hackers, the one that included DRM.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
This strikes me as a non-issue. And I'm exclusively a Steam gamer. I don't buy anything if it's not on Steam.
 

NickelPlate

Senior member
Nov 9, 2006
652
13
81
A lot of speculation going on here regarding the future. It's all crystal ball stuff nobody knows what's going to happen but the facts are Steam has been around now for over 10 years and Half Life 2 is coming up on its 10th year anniversary. And you can still play it just fine. Steam is also the largest digital distribution network worldwide. Valve has stated that they would make provisions for people to continue to play their games if Steam ever got shutdown.

http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=446772

Companies change yes and Valve has certainly changed from their days as a game developer to that of a game distributor. The only thing which I really even think about is what will become of Valve and Steam when Gabe is gone. I'm sure he has plans for that but who knows that could be a turning point in the industry and if Valve/Steam goes away someone else will take their place.

In the meantime I'll just continue to play and buy Steam games on sale and stop worrying so much over the future. They're just games after all, it's not like the world is going to end if the servers to people's favorite MMOs get shutdown due to lack of interest or funding.
 

Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
81
I just WISH I could borrow my brothers steam games. He has hundreds he buys and never really plays then moves to another one. What a waste. I could seriously be playing all his steam games and never buy another again.

you can. check out steam family sharing.
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
EULA

Nuff Said.

Don't like it, don't buy software licenses from steam. Hell, don't buy software period.
 
Last edited:
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |