You have KILLED PC Gaming

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bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
You must play terrible games not specifically designed with only the PC in mind.

Since when can you mod console games to the point where you have an entirely new game?
Since when can you customize console games to the extent you can on PC games?
Since when can you play against 50+ people in a FPS shooter game on a console? Perfect Dark 0 suppozedly can is going to offer it, however I've personally been able to do that on a PC since 1998, 6.5 years ago...

Oh and you're drooling over screens and videos from a system that won't be available for a year?

Yeah, I agree with nick, go away.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Maybe MS is setting themselves up to take over PC market too? Cheap, high power, computing applainces. Apple had this dream a long time ago..unfortunatly electronics moved at an exponetial rate and people had lots more code to write so it failed... we may be at a turning point.

It is possible, there was speculation of 3 Xbox systems a while ago - 1 with no HD, 1 with HD, and 1 released around the time of the PS3 to also act as a personal computer capable of doing at least basic tasks. However they've eliminated the no HD plans so I'm not sure if they're planning to release the personal computer option...
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
You got some good points. I believe we've been tapped for about 3 years on what you need from a PC to do 90% of tasks. I mean I browse web on a old tbird, run excel..do all sorts of PC stuff that feels little different than my power box. In sum I feel a PC has become an applaince, not needing upgrades unless you 3D game or run heavy work station apps, that's like 10% of market.

If XB360/PS3 adds a Keyboard, Mouse, printer and full USB capability they could destory the PC market. You'd get a great game machine which all sorts of titles are written for, plus a PC "good enough" for 90% of users.

But that's a big if. You'd also need applications written and compatable and legacy support... not hard with basically PC hardware inside with a tweaked MS OS.

Maybe MS is setting themselves up to take over PC market too? Cheap, high power, computing applainces. Apple had this dream a long time ago..unfortunatly electronics moved at an exponetial rate and people had lots more code to write so it failed... we may be at a turning point.

It is a big IF, I'm hedging that this time it'll come too... Bluetooth was added by Sony for a resaon, not for the hell of it. I'm sure we'll see the keyboard and mouse (they posted internet connectiviy and p2p as one of the features>

You've mentioned apple, but I'd been there before with my 64 and a1000/a500. There have been alot of posts about me being some kid, maybe just on the inside. my finance wants to kill me for the cash I spend on my PC.. lol Let me address all those posts in one shot saying that I'm a professional over 30, but a kid on the inside who loves to be blown away by an immersive game!

I was brought up in an friggin arcade (not sure if 11-13 year olds even know what one is... lol) adn am extremely passionate about a great game.

What the console lacks (for now) is the intimacy that PC gaming has... Being in on your computer with the lights out, and face pressed up against your monitor ready to have the crap scared outta you. but that's it. As wallets close, so will this market. Right now, there are a small number of us feeling the choke. Money can no longer buy gaming bliss on the PC's, and that's a shame...

 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
Originally posted by: CrispyFried
9600 or an x850 at 1600xwhatever and super duper aa/af setting. The dx9 code is the same. They didnt skimp cuz of us peeps that dont blow $500 on a vid card every 6 months.

Ive seen the steam survey and yes, Im kinda dissapointed by the low end hardware too,

Not true. 9600's and the like are turning off features, not just res and aliasing.
Turnign res and aliasing down is a poison it itself. makes the my monitor look like a lite-brite!

Plus your turning of, soft shadows, reflections, volumetric clouds/fog/shadows and so much more. Saying you played half life2 with anything below an x800, is like saying you watched the Matrix (cue the matrix flamers) with an AM radio
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy
Zebo, you are a highly intelligent individual but GOD I hope you're wrong...lol

Hehe... Looks like you have the wrong avatar.. You have a piture of Butch, but really you're just spike.. lol
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
What model Lian Li case. What brand of ram, what timings.

Not.
Lian Li PC 60
Ultra PC4000 Although the garbage won't go above 225 mhz... Cas2.5 at 1T hence my achilles
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Originally posted by: giz02
Originally posted by: CrispyFried
9600 or an x850 at 1600xwhatever and super duper aa/af setting. The dx9 code is the same. They didnt skimp cuz of us peeps that dont blow $500 on a vid card every 6 months.

Ive seen the steam survey and yes, Im kinda dissapointed by the low end hardware too,

Not true. 9600's and the like are turning off features, not just res and aliasing.
Turnign res and aliasing down is a poison it itself. makes the my monitor look like a lite-brite!

Plus your turning of, soft shadows, reflections, volumetric clouds/fog/shadows and so much more. Saying you played half life2 with anything below an x800, is like saying you watched the Matrix (cue the matrix flamers) with an AM radio


And playing Doom3 with a stank x800 card is like jerking off with your dick, an excercise in futility.
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
Originally posted by: JBird7986
Here's my solution. If you want the gaming industry to advance faster, why don't you buy us all a SLI rig. Until then, I can't afford $600 on a single component of my computer and I'm happy to stick with my Radeon 9700 PRO which has provided me more than adequate service thus far. Oh, and here's the thing: Even though it's the oldest component of my system (see http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.aspx?rigid=30514), I don't really feel that it's holding me back at all.

It's not $600 Us for a decent video card. 6800 will go for $299.

I bought a AIW 9700 Pro for $130 from ebay, so you're looking at an $80 card. (don't blame me if you held on to it for too long)

 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
stick with my Radeon 9700 PRO which has provided me more than adequate service thus far. Oh, and here's the thing: Even though it's the oldest component of my system (see http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.aspx?rigid=30514), I don't really feel that it's holding me back at all.
Install Riddick and swap out that 13inch cga monitor you must be on. If you can't see the difference, use voice dial and call an optomitrist...
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
And playing Doom3 with a stank x800 card is like jerking off with your dick, an excercise in futility.

Carmack f'd up. I don't know what else to say. There are really big machines that are 'working' inthat game that look cool, but that is about it... It pales to everything else, and pullls more resources. He was investing too much time into the X-Race I guess...

 

JBird7986

Senior member
May 17, 2005
230
0
76
Originally posted by: giz02
stick with my Radeon 9700 PRO which has provided me more than adequate service thus far. Oh, and here's the thing: Even though it's the oldest component of my system (see http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.aspx?rigid=30514, I don't really feel that it's holding me back at all.
Install Riddick and swap out that 13inch cga monitor you must be on. If you can't see the difference, use voice dial and call an optomitrist...


If you had bothered to read the hardware profile you'd have seen I'm on a 17" LCD.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
11,288
1
0
didn't bother to read anything, but for the record: someone always says this every time a new powerful console comes out, and pc gaming is still here.
 

Tostada

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,789
0
0
That original post is fairly nonsensical. Obviously it's ridiculous to say that the game market has died because not enough people spent $5000 on their system. My first Commodore 64 didn't cost as much as that. My first PC didn't cost as much as that. There were plenty of great games for those systems. The game market has gotten pretty sad, really. I've got a Sempron 2800 and this week I've been playing Warcraft II. I'd rather go back and playZork I than most of the stuff on the market today.

How good your system is really doesn't matter for gameplay. If I want to play FarCry or Doom III on my GeForce Ti 4200 all I have to do is turn off some of the eye candy. The problem is that none of these games are as much fun as the original Duke Nukem 3D was on my Pentium 90.
 

kobymu

Senior member
Mar 21, 2005
576
0
0
Originally posted by: Tostada
The problem is that none of these games are as much fun as the original Duke Nukem 3D was on my Pentium 90.

that is exactly how i feel!!!

newer games are not as fun as the oldies... or am i just getting to old to enjoy tham

havent played on my computer since WC3 (which i plowed through for about a week but without multiplayer is not really replayable)....
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
My thoughts are not my own. Mircosofts hardware takeover's talked about by some technologists: Here is a pretty good read.
http://www.overclockers.com/tips00746/
"Geeks vs. Sixpacks"
Ed Stroligo - 3/19/05


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The other day, there was an article about Cell technology. It pretty much poo-poos the notion that PowerPC/Cell technology can ever threaten PCdom.

We, on the other hand, think it's quite likely PCdom is going to be in for the fight of its life the second half of the decade and beyond.

Who is right?

When you look at the reasons given for Cell not being a real competitor, most of them seem to be aimed more at the Slashdot than Joe Sixpack crowd. Perhaps more importantly, Cell is being looked upon through the eyes of the PC paradigm, and there's no sense that there can be other paradigms or standard just as or even more valid than that.

Put more simply, the author can't really see PCs being replaced by something else, and that is precisely what this is all about. The great potential of Cell is not that it's an improvement on the PC paradigm, but that it can break it. It at least can be a disruptive technology, precisely because (outside of Microsoft), its advocates have no vested interest in PCdom (and even Microsoft may be looking to replace Wintel with WIBM).

If you look at the main reasons given for Cell not having much of a chance, this will become clear:

The main processing core isn't powerful enough: Cell technology is basically a modified PowerPC with a bunch of little helpers. There's tons and tons of technical justifications for this, but that all can be summed up with this statement: "Performance in business/office applications requires a very powerful, very fast general purpose microprocessor . . . ."

Oh, really? You need one or two or ten 3Ghz processors to browse, to use Word, to write email, to do a simple spreadsheet or presentation? I don't think so, and that's what most business PCs are used for. It's hardly a far-fetched flight of fancy to assume that owners of home PCs will be even less demanding than that. For the average person, if they do something, and they don't have to wait more than a moment, it's fast enough.

Yes, there's video and other media, but that's what all those SPEs are supposed to be handling.

What's silliest about the argument, though, is that it doesn't seem to apply to Intel. Intel has suggested that it will eventually go down the Cell path, and then suddenly, all the problems and objections go away. It's just too tough to program for millions of Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo boxes, but when Intel says "Jump," everyone will say, "How high?"

Sorry, but the world is bigger than Intel.

It will be hard to program: Yes, programming will get harder (and/or compilers will have to be much smarter), but as we pointed out yesterday, programming multithreads on a PC will be no picnic in the park, either. It's the increased complexity of the task that's the big factor in making programming harder, not the differences in hardware.

True, the greater flexibility of Cell architecture will probably make programming a bit tougher, but again, a clever compiler can do most of that work.

The architecture is too different from PCdom to easily port items from one place to another. Sorry, but this is the tail wagging the dog. The next generation of game consoles/PC wannabes are all going to run off these PowerPCs/Cells. Playstation 3/XBox 2/Nintendo Revolution. Even today, there's a lot more gaming consoles than PCs used heavily for gaming. It's hard to argue that PCdom is the center of the gaming universe.

While it's not clear what the differences between these new gaming consoles will be, given their common origins, it shouldn't be all that hard to port games or apps between these platforms.

The argument also ignores the reality that no game developer seems much perturbed providing PS2/XBox versions of games today, even though the XBox uses x86 technology.

The real problem with the argument, though, is that Cell offers the potential of allowing developers to write programs that transcend the game console/PC barrier. You can have a Cell game console, you can have a Cell PC or workstation, you can have a machine that does it all, and porting from one version to another should be rather simpler than what it is today.

PCs don't quite fit in? So? PS3/XBox2/Nintendo (maybe Apple eventually, and after that, even AMD might join in) is certainly a big enough user base; it's probably bigger than the PC gaming base.

PCs don't have to rule.

There's too much of an investment in PC software: This is probably the most powerful argument of the bunch, and it probably is quite decisive among the power bunch, but just because one argument has trumped before doesn't mean it always will.

This argument is usually cited as a big reason why Mac marketshare has dwindled over time. No doubt some of it has to do with learning curves, but expense is probably a bigger factor.

Macdom has said to PCdom: "Spend a lot more money on a Mac, pay more to replace your PC software with Mac software, and you can be in mystical ecstacy like us." This argument has not worked very well over the years.

Cell platforms have the potential of saying to PCdom: Spend less money on a box good enough for your PC work and your kids' games. That's a pretty good argument for many, but if you can add, "and be easier to use than your current big old ugly Windows box," then you have a PC killer.

Geek vs. Sixpack

Does all this mean the PC is doomed to extinction, or at least a considerable shrivelling up?

No, not at all. There's a million ways those backing Cell could screw this up, but the screw-ups have nothing to do with the arguments mentioned above.

The war between PCdom and Cells isn't really between two differing sets of hardware. It's really a war to answer the question, "Are computers meant for geeks or Sixpacks?"

Up to now, the war between Sixpacks and Geeks hasn't really been a war, it's been more like Christians vs. Lions. The underlying premises and goals of PCdom are geeky: more power, more features, more, more, more. They want better and better computers. On the other hand, the Sixpacks want cheap, simple and reliable (small and portable would be nice, too). They want a glorified TV set.

Up to now, the Sixpacks have been dragged along by the geeks because they didn't have any other option.

Cell has the potential to give them that option, to disrupt the cozy little geekopoly of PCdom and force it into niches. It will succeed or fail against PCdom to the extent that it realizes that this is what the war is all about, and to the extent PCdom doesn't. If Cells give Sixpacks what they think is a better computer, they'll win. If they don't, it won't.

Yes, PCdom could do the same, but it's like expecting a tiger to get rid of its stripes. It's not just a computer, it's a way of life, and to compete, PC geekdom will have to say, "To hell with our kind. Sixpacks rule!"

I don't see them doing it anymore than they can see themselves doing it.

There will always be computer for geeks. The question is whether or not all personal computers will continue to be basically designed by and for geeks.

And IBM getting in or getting out of PC business
http://www.overclockers.com/tips00696/
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,576
7
81
Originally posted by: giz02
If you don?t have time for rants, skip this post.

PC Gaming is over, and it?s YOUR fault. Yes YOU all you lame ass ?l33t? ?the PC is the best gaming platform? ?my wallet is lost with my balls? fools who talk the talk but lack the walk have ruined it!

You may think that I am konsole kid, but you are sadly mistaken. I run 10.5?s and 23?s (05/03) on an air cooled o/c?d FX55/6800GT sli rig. I?ve spent dollar after dollar on my rig, in hopes that one day, someone would make a game that would blow me away, but unfortunately, because I represent about 3% of the PC gaming segment, developers have left me to rot!

All of you clowns who have been playing ?double-dutch? ([Edit] (NOT) having the balls to [know when to] jump in to the PC game), the majority of the users here running XP1600?s (or any XP for that matter) and Radeon 9800?s (or anything less than a X800pro/6800GT) have really tanked the PC market.

I don?t blame the developers really. That is why the PC games suck now, there is no market out there to spend the money to make a good game, and even if they did spend the production costs/time to make a really great game, only 3% of the users out there would be able to appreciate it.

The PS3 has finished us off. (and if you haven?t seen the videos, I suggest you take a look!) At least I can sell my equipment to you before it becomes worthless. I?ve never seen graphics and action like that, but I bet we all could have.

I was SERIOUSLLY considering dual/quadcore and quad gpu PC hardware, but what is the use. I?ll be sitting there with a monster rig (like I am now), with nothing to play on it.

Some people would contest that the controls are better on the PC, the online gaming is better, the resolution is better, etc etc.

Here?s how things rank up right now (imo)
Controls ? PS3 has blue tooth integrated. Many people have posted why 7 devices (lol) why an odd number of controllers? Well there can be 8 devices on a BT device, and not all of them will be gamepads. The sky is the limit now with controlling the PS3. This cell in my pocket could be a controller now, and the BEST wheel available at a consumer level is the Logitech Driving Force Pro 900 (a PS2 wheel).

Online gaming ? Many ppl hate xb/live because of it?s fees, however they pay monthly to WoW/SWG/Matrix online, etc etc. What makes more sense, one fee (ring) to rule them all, or fees coming from every angle?

Resolution ? Just saw a demo of a PS3 powering two HDtv?s at 3840x1200.. Next?.

Sound ? Industry (and I mean the complete entertainment industry) standard DTS/Dolby 5.1? PC.. Proprietary unrefined sound schemes

Every time they sell a PS3, they?ll know that they have a user at a set level. The game will be compatible and look just as glorious as it will on anyone elses console. PC ? multiple render paths, games coded for the lowest common denominator.. It?s a crap shot.

The next year or two will be (to quote a few of you fools) ?0wn3d? by the PS3.. No contest.

You guys want some good hardware, check my auction for 2xBFG 6800 GT?s, 680Watt Thermal Take PS, DFI-SLIDR MB, 2xPC4000 DDR DC ram (Ultra? ya, that was my Achilles, but it didn?t seem to matter), Lian Li case, Zalman 7700 CPU Fan, Zalman 700GPU Fan (top GPU cause a friggin NV5 wouldn?t fit there!!!), Arctic NV5 Silencer ((bottom GPU), Lian Li case. I?m buyin a cheap as laptop and waiting for the second (or 4th for the PC world) coming.

This sh1t is done!

BAH-HUMBUG, The same thing was said about the PS2 and then again with the XBOX. What you are saying has been said so many times before and yet PC gaming is still here and will remain a powerfull force in the industy. Most game delopers are die hard PC gamerz them selves and is where places like EA, MS, and Valve recruit from (MOD Commnity). It is a place where new gaming concepts are first born and tried out long before they ever reach the console. "L337 G4m3rz" are are all Pioneers, just some of us are lacking the Necessary spirit.

Your time will come my friend. For me it is a nice feeling to know that I have a system that is way far ahead of the software curve(by at least 2 yrs). It means to me that I will not have to do a complete overhaul in 93 days just because my CPU and GPU won't be playing the latest game. Graphics and sound do not drive the game; it's interface and creativity that make it all worth while(it's the reason why DX7 CS/HL games are still the most popular games out there today). I sill play some old games and find them to be just as enjoyable as the latest and greatest. Like I said there will be a time when A dual core 4400+ with 6gb of ram and a 512mb 6800ultra wont work with a certain game. The PC is more like a test platform for the console, if it works here then It will show up later for the small tv boxes. DOOM, Wolfenstien, and RPG's, The whole console FPS genere owns it's gratitude to the PC.


End of my run-on rant.
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,576
7
81
OPENING RANT

Originally posted by: giz02
If you don?t have time for rants, skip this post.....
. This cell in my pocket could be a controller now, and the BEST wheel available at a consumer level is the Logitech Driving Force Pro 900 (a PS2 wheel).......

This controller beats the one you described HANDS DOWN.

http://www.gtcockpit.com/
 

SkyBum

Senior member
Oct 16, 2004
844
7
81
Originally posted by: giz02
Money can no longer buy gaming bliss on the PC's, and that's a shame...

Here's the thing.....and you should spend some time thinking about this.
Money never COULD buy gaming bliss. And it never WILL. Don't you get it?!!!

"Gaming bliss" is simply a state of mind. It has very little to do with our hardware spec's or our "minimum system requirements". Our "gaming bliss" is a byproduct of our expectations, and on those occasions when we can manage to exceed our expectations we often find ourselves in a state of....of....game induced mental ecstacy. We've all been there many times and by god we can surely all agree that it feels goddamn GOOD!!!

It feels so good that we spend ever increasing amounts of our time and money and effort glued to our ever larger monitors and ever more powerful GPU's/CPU's in our frenetic pursuit of our next gaming fix. Sound familiar?

Certainly we can all remember some of our first "fixes" in the beginnings of this gaming world that was fast in the making. For me it started on the Commodore 64 with Space Invaders which soon enough led me to Pac Man and later Moon Patrol and eventually a game I will never forget: Tempest. The final nail in the coffin for me was the first game I ever experienced on a PC: Wing Commander. At that point there was never the slightest chance of turning back.....I was locked into gaming for the duration. No way out. Not ever.

I know you all have your own experiences with different games which brought you to be hanging out here today, but they all posess a common theme in that they sparked something in our minds that forever changed us. Remember ALL of those rushes of ecstacy we've found along our way to get to here? (man, there were SO many now that I think about it...) Those were all INCREDIBLE games in their brief moment in the spotlight, but we gamers demand so much. We demand ever increasing amounts of the gaming ecstacy, we spend ever increasing amounts of our money and time and effort in search of it. It's no wonder we're all such a jaded lot....will we EVER be satisfied? Likely not, it's a tough gig to keep us "fixed".

We remind me sometimes of junkies on the street, looking for our next fix, and when it doesn't materialize as we expected we can be so rabid. (heh....somebody try to argue with that one....)

.....but back to my point.....

"Gaming bliss". It's a state of mind. Recognize this fact giz02, you will never curb your urge for your next "gaming fix", and the gaming industry will never quench it. No amount of technology will ever be able to completely satisfy you (or us for that matter) though some of us will take time to enjoy what is available for whatever it is worth. You can sell your rig and you can buy whatever console interests you at the moment but you will very likely spend the rest of your life in search of your "gaming bliss". We all will. Although you seem all set to be unhappier than most....

As for me, I'll find my fix here and there just as I always have. I'll get along. You? Go ahead and jump off the deep end. Sure hope you find that fix.....it's a long way to the bottom.
 

SkyBum

Senior member
Oct 16, 2004
844
7
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
My thoughts are not my own. Mircosofts hardware takeover's talked about by some technologists: Here is a pretty good read.

Jebus Zebo, thats a pretty upsidedown take on things. It' enough to send my sorry drunken ass to bed with something i'd rather not think about.

It's definitely not what I want to hear, but dayum...it's got a certain ring of truth to it. Will I still be able to get my "fix" with that sh^t?
 

Tostada

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,789
0
0
Originally posted by: Googer
OPENING RANT

This controller beats the one you described HANDS DOWN.

http://www.gtcockpit.com/

WTF are you talking about? All you linked was a cockpit for the Logitech Driving Force Pro, and you're saying that it's better than the Logitech Driving Force Pro. That makes a lot of sense.

And thanks for quoting a 4-page post that everyone already saw.
 

Diasper

Senior member
Mar 7, 2005
709
0
0
Excellent quote Zebo. That's what I've been thinking from my other reading. A well-though out, balanced and objective article.
 

giz02

Member
Feb 28, 2005
89
0
0
Originally posted by: Tostada
The problem is that none of these games are as much fun as the original Duke Nukem 3D was on my Pentium 90.

Fullest agreement there. Duke 3d was one of the greatest.
Jetpack
Tripwire
Holoduke
Freeze and Shrink Rays

Even just being able to sing at the microphones....

They are not as fun, but are probably just as immersive
 
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