you know what makes me angry?

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shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Thats a agreement entered into freely involving only him and his parents. Again, to equate that to welfare is one hell of a stretch. You see, in a welfare agreement the government and a lazy person freely enter into an agreement for the lazy person to get some third parties money for free. The third party has no say in that whatsoever and in fact has their money taken through threat of force, very much similar to outright theft.

Nope. People choose to stay in the country. They are not forced. Part of staying in a civilized country is paying taxes, which goes to a variety of things. You cannot opt out. You CAN move to Somalia if you'd like. Enjoy!
 
Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
Yes, focus on welfare for the poor, but not corporate welfare. Logical, especially for someone that still lives with their parents and is the very definition of ON WELFARE.

So one form of welfare is alright but the other isn't. It's still welfare you liberal idiot. It's taking money from one group to give to another. Gotta love the hypocrisy of the left.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
So one form of welfare is alright but the other isn't. It's still welfare you liberal idiot. It's taking money from one group to give to another. Gotta love the hypocrisy of the left.

There's nothing hypocritical about saying "I believe that people who need assistance should get it from taxpayer money" and not including corporations in your definition of "people who need assistance." It is possible to support welfare for one group but not another.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
So one form of welfare is alright but the other isn't. It's still welfare you liberal idiot. It's taking money from one group to give to another. Gotta love the hypocrisy of the left.

They are not equal. One is to corporations that are making money hand over fist. The other(the same one that the OP is abusing) helps FEED people so they survive.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,273
5,154
136
i need to call my oldest brother's friend and see if he has a min wage job for me... i've been meaning to do that for two or three months now but i still havent gotten around to it and im not really sure why.

You should do it, seriously. The routine of a job, the feeling of earning your way, a bit of income giving you freedom to get out and have a bit of a social life, the chance to meet some new people... even a shit job can seriously improve mental well being, when compared to unemployment.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,789
6,223
126
So Anarchist, it seems as if the left ridicules you for your cold hearted attitude to government help for the poor and the right ridicules you because you are poor like the people you have a cold heart for. You are like the right in your head but you don't measure up to their standards so they won't accept you as one of them. But lucky for you , you still have old dipshit Moonbeam to care about you.

I appreciated your post to me a lot. It expressed so much feeling.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,789
6,223
126
You should do it, seriously. The routine of a job, the feeling of earning your way, a bit of income giving you freedom to get out and have a bit of a social life, the chance to meet some new people... even a shit job can seriously improve mental well being, when compared to unemployment.

That's all well and good but it builds expectations. He said he doesn't know why he hasn't done what he thinks would be a good idea. He doesn't know what stands in his way. Let me suggest it could be the fear of failure, that there will be no job or that he might fail at it if there is. This is why building up hope for something can sometimes not be a good thing. It is much better, I think, to get to a place in your head where failing is OK. We all fear failure. The cure for that is success. Next best is indifference to either. He needs to see self help as an adventure, an exploration, something new and different, regardless of whether he succeeds or fails. That takes away pressure and fear. Our enemy is in our head but we don't see that.
 
Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
They are not equal. One is to corporations that are making money hand over fist. The other(the same one that the OP is abusing) helps FEED people so they survive.

You idiot. They don't have a right to other peoples money. It's nice to see you support theft.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Perhaps you have a hatred of what the US stands for. My problem is with welfare and using it to make people dependent and grow the size of government.

I stated a fact. We were founded on taxes.

I have a problem with spending more than the next 10 countries combined on the most bloated military on the planet, while being surrounded by the 2 largest oceans and only 2 countries, both of which are harmless. Life is tough. At least welfare actually goes to the people...
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
This country is founded on taxation. Perhaps you simply don't love this country!
it would be more accurate to say that incorruptible doesnt love the State. the Declaration of Independence proclaimed 13 secessions... nations/peoples (jews, gentiles) are naturally occuring. the Framers of the Constitution merely created a State and most people at the time opposed it... the Constitution is more popular today than it was when it first came into effect.
 
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destey

Member
Jan 17, 2008
146
0
71
Just to make sure that I understand your position, you’re saying that if my Grandmother puts her retirement money in US bonds, because they are safe and yield a sure return on her investment, you want the government to say nope we’re not going to give you any return, or your money back, you’re out of luck?
The US government bonds yield very little compared to the market, on average, but many people put their investments there because they are seen as very safe. These may be grandmothers, they may be big corporations, they may be Americans, and they may be Chinese. From a trust stand point I do not think it matters who these investors are. Who is going to invest in these bonds if they are no longer seen as safe investments? It seems to me that the result of what you are suggesting is that either the government will not be able to run because a lack of cash or the government will have to start paying our significantly larger amounts of interest, because of a loss of trust on the part of investors.
How is the US defaulting on its debt going to help our government, or us as citizens?

I lost $25k on an investment back in 2008 that was what I consider to be a safe investment. No investment is without risk. Anyone investing in US govt bonds cannot honestly say they haven't heard of our large, growing, financial debt. Or the problems that are never solved with regards to how social security etc will be funded.

Bagholders is the term. When you're sold a story about a stock and stuck holding worthless shares after it collapses, that's exactly what our govt bonds are going to be eventually IMO.

Real estate was the exact same "can't go down, sure way to make money" investment, but that went bust in 08/09.

What I don't like is taxpayers bailing out people when their "sure bets" go south. Nobody bailed me out when I lost $25k. Meanwhile at the same time I was hearing about TARP and the folks at AIG getting bailed out so they can go on a $400,000 weekend spa trip with taxpayer money, because they are "too big to fail"

The US govt is a fraudulent, corrupt, thieving service for the poor and ultra rich, and I just hope I don't stuck with the bill when everyone starts to realize this truth and runs from this as an investment. Maybe they have been, and that's why the fed needs to pump the interest rate up by having govt buy its own bonds (wtf is that logic???)
 

Tormac

Senior member
Feb 3, 2011
255
52
101
I lost $25k on an investment back in 2008 that was what I consider to be a safe investment. No investment is without risk. Anyone investing in US govt bonds cannot honestly say they haven't heard of our large, growing, financial debt. Or the problems that are never solved with regards to how social security etc will be funded.

Bagholders is the term. When you're sold a story about a stock and stuck holding worthless shares after it collapses, that's exactly what our govt bonds are going to be eventually IMO.

Real estate was the exact same "can't go down, sure way to make money" investment, but that went bust in 08/09.

What I don't like is taxpayers bailing out people when their "sure bets" go south. Nobody bailed me out when I lost $25k. Meanwhile at the same time I was hearing about TARP and the folks at AIG getting bailed out so they can go on a $400,000 weekend spa trip with taxpayer money, because they are "too big to fail"

The US govt is a fraudulent, corrupt, thieving service for the poor and ultra rich, and I just hope I don't stuck with the bill when everyone starts to realize this truth and runs from this as an investment. Maybe they have been, and that's why the fed needs to pump the interest rate up by having govt buy its own bonds (wtf is that logic???)

I agree whole heartedly about the moral hazard of having the tax payer left holding the bag for banks and corporations. I have a strong streak of anarco-capitalism in me, and it an worries me when I see the trend to "socialize the risk and capitalize the profit" that came up with the financial collapse before. I realize why we bailed out the banks, but I think that any of these institutions that are "too big to fail" need to be heavily regulated so that they do not take risks with their money.

I have also been stuck with underperforming stocks after the .com bust in the early 2000's. But from a practical point of view it seems to me to be a very different situation between a stock holder in a private firm and someone who holds US government bonds. Our government needs a steady stream of cash, and the bonds are currently that stream. It may sound like an easy thing to do to just write off the US government debt, but in doing so we are destroying the stream of income that the government needs to function on a day to day basis.

I heard a lot of people seriously float around the idea of the US writing off its debt. They seem to have the idea that this will just screw rich Chinese investors who they would like to screw anyways.
Ignoring that a very large percentage of the US debt is held by US corporations and citizens, I want to point out that the trust in the US as a safe economic haven would be destroyed, and this would screw us all, if we just "wrote off the US debt".

The US government is going in the wrong direction. I agree that it seems to be very bent on helping large institutions at the cost of the middle class lately. The frustrating thing is that both parties seem be just as bad, the only difference is which special interest groups they support. I wish people would vote for third parties and break up the power that the Republicrats seem to hold.

At the same time I do not want to see us go through the economic melt down that would occur if we did just default on our debt. That feels like defaulting on your house payments because you are tired of paying property taxes.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Ignoring that a very large percentage of the US debt is held by US corporations and citizens, I want to point out that the trust in the US as a safe economic haven would be destroyed, and this would screw us all, if we just "wrote off the US debt".
no one would be screwed forever, and no one can predict every outcome of what would happen whether there were more regulations or if the u.s. govt just collapsed right now.

and no outcome is objectively and universally good or bad... some people would lose nothing from a repudiation of the public debt.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
I agree whole heartedly about the moral hazard of having the tax payer left holding the bag for banks and corporations. I have a strong streak of anarco-capitalism in me, and it an worries me when I see the trend to "socialize the risk and capitalize the profit" that came up with the financial collapse before. I realize why we bailed out the banks, but I think that any of these institutions that are "too big to fail" need to be heavily regulated so that they do not take risks with their money.
actually, the bailout of the banks was only meant to be good for the banks, because underwater homeowners could've been bailed out for less than 1/4 of the cost it was to bail out the banks (as long as the former was done reasonably) while those who had saved would've been able to save or create jobs as their assets would've been worth more.
 

destey

Member
Jan 17, 2008
146
0
71
I agree whole heartedly about the moral hazard of having the tax payer left holding the bag for banks and corporations. I have a strong streak of anarco-capitalism in me, and it an worries me when I see the trend to "socialize the risk and capitalize the profit" that came up with the financial collapse before. I realize why we bailed out the banks, but I think that any of these institutions that are "too big to fail" need to be heavily regulated so that they do not take risks with their money.

I have also been stuck with underperforming stocks after the .com bust in the early 2000's. But from a practical point of view it seems to me to be a very different situation between a stock holder in a private firm and someone who holds US government bonds. Our government needs a steady stream of cash, and the bonds are currently that stream. It may sound like an easy thing to do to just write off the US government debt, but in doing so we are destroying the stream of income that the government needs to function on a day to day basis.

I heard a lot of people seriously float around the idea of the US writing off its debt. They seem to have the idea that this will just screw rich Chinese investors who they would like to screw anyways.
Ignoring that a very large percentage of the US debt is held by US corporations and citizens, I want to point out that the trust in the US as a safe economic haven would be destroyed, and this would screw us all, if we just "wrote off the US debt".

The US government is going in the wrong direction. I agree that it seems to be very bent on helping large institutions at the cost of the middle class lately. The frustrating thing is that both parties seem be just as bad, the only difference is which special interest groups they support. I wish people would vote for third parties and break up the power that the Republicrats seem to hold.

At the same time I do not want to see us go through the economic melt down that would occur if we did just default on our debt. That feels like defaulting on your house payments because you are tired of paying property taxes.

Excellent post.

I still hold to the idea that anyone investing in us treas bonds is taking risk. If you analyze it from the standpoint that most businesses are held to, its a horrible investment. Would anyone invest in a company that cannot control its costs, has ever growing debt that isnt' even attempted to be slowed from growing, much less paid off?

IMO The only thing that treas bonds has is that govt makes up the rules as it goes along and investors know this. They think that politicians will protect the repayment of bonds no matter what. Seems like at some point the tax income will not be enough to pay off the interest alone.

Tax revenue totals were about $2.45billion for 2013
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=203

Interest on national debt in 2013: $415 billion
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm

They are predicting higher revenue for tax income in the future, and it *looks* like it stays ahead of interest, but that like saying "well my credit card interest isn't as much as my entire income so..." Though maybe mortgage would be a better analogy. Its pretty std that mortgages aren't given if the payment is above about 1/3d the income, right? I guess since were at ~17% then were ok?

But then I look at usdebtclock.org and say to myself, what rubbish. $150k debt per taxpayer, its like we have a 2nd mortgage of govt debt on all our backs.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Nope. People choose to stay in the country. They are not forced. Part of staying in a civilized country is paying taxes, which goes to a variety of things. You cannot opt out. You CAN move to Somalia if you'd like. Enjoy!

Ah, see now you've just thrown out a generalized statement which has no bearing.
Sure, taxes are paid in every civilized country. But to what extent is it required. Is your position we should pay taxes so we can plant flowers on the side of the road, and since taxes are what civilized people we shouldnt have any discussion about the need for flowers on the side of the road? Or are you trying to suggest we should pay taxes for basic infrastruxture such as roads, which i think most people would agree with?

When you paint with a broad brush, you paint bad art.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
OP, power takes many forms other than money. Power is power, pure and simple. The numbers matter on one hand, and don't really matter on the other.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,309
5,733
136
i need to call my oldest brother's friend and see if he has a min wage job for me... i've been meaning to do that for two or three months now but i still havent gotten around to it and im not really sure why.

because you spend too much time thinking up stupid threads like this
 
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