You only get one shot at life...

MrsBugi

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2005
2,481
5
0
... are you happy with the way it's going so far?

Interesting & thought-provoking article.

September 17, 2009, 9:30 pm
The Referendum
By Tim Kreider
Recently an editor asked me for an essay about arrested adolescence, joking: ?Of course, I thought of you.?

It is worth mentioning that this editor is an old college friend; we?ve driven across the country, been pantsless in several nonsexual contexts, and accidentally hospitalized each other in good fun. He is now a respectable homeowner and family man; I am not. So I couldn?t help but wonder: is there something condescending about this assignment? Does he consider me some sort of amusing and feckless manchild instead of a respected cartoonist whose work is beloved by hundreds and has made me a thousandaire, who?s been in a committed relationship for 15 years with the same cat?

My weird touchiness on this issue ? taking offense at someone offering to pay me money for my work ? is symptomatic of a more widespread syndrome I call ?The Referendum.?

To my friends with children, the obscene wealth of free time at my command must seem unimaginably exotic, since their next thousand Saturdays are already booked.
The Referendum is a phenomenon typical of (but not limited to) midlife, whereby people, increasingly aware of the finiteness of their time in the world, the limitations placed on them by their choices so far, and the narrowing options remaining to them, start judging their peers? differing choices with reactions ranging from envy to contempt. The Referendum can subtly poison formerly close and uncomplicated relationships, creating tensions between the married and the single, the childless and parents, careerists and the stay-at-home. It?s exacerbated by the far greater diversity of options available to us now than a few decades ago, when everyone had to follow the same drill. We?re all anxiously sizing up how everyone else?s decisions have worked out to reassure ourselves that our own are vindicated ? that we are, in some sense, winning.

It?s especially conspicuous among friends from youth. Young adulthood is an anomalous time in people?s lives; they?re as unlike themselves as they?re ever going to be, experimenting with substances and sex, ideology and religion, trying on different identities before their personalities immutably set. Some people flirt briefly with being freethinking bohemians before becoming their parents. Friends who seemed pretty much indistinguishable from you in your 20s make different choices about family or career, and after a decade or two these initial differences yield such radically divergent trajectories that when you get together again you can only regard each other?s lives with bemused incomprehension.

I may be exceptionally conscious of the Referendum because my life is so different from most of my cohort?s; at 42 I?ve never been married and don?t want kids. I recently had dinner with some old friends, a couple with two small children, and when I told them about my typical Saturday in New York City ? doing the Times crossword, stopping off at a local flea market, maybe biking across the Brooklyn Bridge ? they looked at me like I was describing my battles with the fierce and elusive Squid-Men among the moons of Neptune. The obscene wealth of free time at my command must?ve seemed unimaginably exotic to them, since their next thousand Saturdays are already booked.

What they also can?t imagine is having too much time on your hands, being unable to fill the hours, having to just sit and stare at the emptiness at the center of your life. But I?m sure that to them this problem seems as pitiable as morbid obesity would to the victims of famine.

A lot of my married friends take a vicarious interest in my personal life. It?s usually just nosy, prurient fun, but sometimes smacks of the sort of moralism that H.G. Wells called ?jealousy with a halo.? Sometimes it seems sort of starved, like audiences in the Great Depression watching musicals about the glitterati. It?s true that my romantic life has produced some humorous anecdotes, but good stories seldom come from happy experiences. Some of my married friends may envy my freedom in an abstract, daydreamy way, misremembering single life as some sort of pornographic smorgasbord, but I doubt many of them would actually choose to trade places with me. Although they may miss the thrill of sexual novelty, absolutely nobody misses dating.

We only get one chance at this, with no do-overs. Life is, in effect, a non-repeatable experiment with no control.
I regard their more conventional domestic lives with the same sort of ambivalence. Like everyone, I?ve seen some marriages in which I would discreetly hang myself within 12 hours, but others have given me cause to envy their intimacy, loyalty, and irreplaceable decades of invested history. [Note to all my married friends: your marriage is one of the latter.] Though one of those friends cautioned me against idealizing: ?It?s not as if being married means you?re any less alone.?

Most of my married friends now have children, the rewards of which appear to be exclusively intangible and, like the mysteries of some gnostic sect, incommunicable to outsiders. In fact it seems from the outside as if these people have joined a dubious cult: they claim to be much happier and more fulfilled than ever before, even though they live in conditions of appalling filth and degradation, deprived of the most basic freedoms and dignity, and owe unquestioning obedience to a capricious and demented master.

I have never even idly thought for a single passing second that it might make my life nicer to have a small, rude, incontinent person follow me around screaming and making me buy them stuff for the rest of my life. [Note to friends with children: I am referring to other people?s children, not to yours.] But there are also moments when some part of me wonders whether I am not only missing the biological boat but something I cannot even begin to imagine ? an entire dimension of human experience undetectable to my senses, like a flatlander scoffing at the theoretical concept of sky.

But I can only imagine the paralytic terror that must seize my friends with families as they lie awake calculating mortgage payments and college funds and realize that they are locked into their present lives for farther into the future than the mind?s eye can see. Judging from the unanimity with which parents preface any gripe about children with the disclaimer, ?Although I would never wish I hadn?t had them and I can?t imagine life without them,? I can?t help but wonder whether they don?t have to repress precisely these thoughts on a daily basis.

Yes: the Referendum gets unattractively self-righteous and judgmental. Quite a lot of what passes itself off as a dialogue about our society consists of people trying to justify their own choices as the only right or natural ones by denouncing others? as selfish or pathological or wrong. So it?s easy to overlook that hidden beneath all this smug certainty is a poignant insecurity, and the naked 3 A.M. terror of regret.

The problem is, we only get one chance at this, with no do-overs. Life is, in effect, a non-repeatable experiment with no control. In his novel about marriage, ?Light Years,? James Salter writes: ?For whatever we do, even whatever we do not do prevents us from doing its opposite. Acts demolish their alternatives, that is the paradox.? Watching our peers? lives is the closest we can come to a glimpse of the parallel universes in which we didn?t ruin that relationship years ago, or got that job we applied for, or got on that plane after all. It?s tempting to read other people?s lives as cautionary fables or repudiations of our own.

A colleague of mine once hosted a visiting cartoonist from Scandinavia who was on a promotional tour. My colleague, who has a university job, a wife and children, was clearly a little wistful about the tour, imagining Brussels, Paris, and London, meeting new fans and colleagues and being taken out for beers every night. The cartoonist, meanwhile, looked forlornly around at his host?s pleasant row house and sighed, almost to himself: ?I would like to have such a house.?

One of the hardest things to look at in this life is the lives we didn?t lead, the path not taken, potential left unfulfilled. In stories, those who look back ? Lot?s wife, Orpheus and Eurydice ? are lost. Looking to the side instead, to gauge how our companions are faring, is a way of glancing at a safer reflection of what we cannot directly bear, like Perseus seeing the Gorgon safely mirrored in his shield.
 
Nov 7, 2000
16,403
3
81
this is why its important to focus on the positive things in life, not the negative. there are advantages and disadvantages to everything, you can be perpetually satisfied or pissed off
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
I know he complained about it in the article, but I just think that there is something wrong with people who don't like children. They seem to not understand that if people did not have children, we wouldn't be here. Basically every hobby, activity, job or whatever was created or done by someone else who had a mother and father. If you cannot love a child, you are not living. You cannot truly love yourself. I'm not saying everyone should have children. I'm also not saying that some people don't regret having them.

I think his mistake is to assume that doing x behavior automatically means that you can't do y behavior. You can have kids and travel. You can still be famous. (not for me personally) You don't have to spend every Saturday with your family. He might find that the quality of relationship that you can build up with family is much stronger than this weak bond that he speaks off that becomes obvious when old friends come together and don't understand each other anymore.

Overall a decent article, but I think the guy is a bit of a narcissist.
 

Cutterhead

Senior member
Jul 13, 2005
527
0
76
You can't win on ATOT. The same forum that praises the Malazan Book of the Fallen can't be bothered to read an article like this one. I'm only halfway through Deadhouse Gates, this thread doesn't even know the meaning of long!:laugh:

Anyway, I read it and enjoyed it.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,453
10
81
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I know he complained about it in the article, but I just think that there is something wrong with people who don't like children. They seem to not understand that if people did not have children, we wouldn't be here. Basically every hobby, activity, job or whatever was created or done by someone else who had a mother and father. If you cannot love a child, you are not living. You cannot truly love yourself. I'm not saying everyone should have children. I'm also not saying that some people don't regret having them.

I think his mistake is to assume that doing x behavior automatically means that you can't do y behavior. You can have kids and travel. You can still be famous. (not for me personally) You don't have to spend every Saturday with your family. He might find that the quality of relationship that you can build up with family is much stronger than this weak bond that he speaks off that becomes obvious when old friends come together and don't understand each other anymore.

Overall a decent article, but I think the guy is a bit of a narcissist.

i didn't read anything about him not liking children. he did imply he didn't want to have children. but not liking and not wanting are vastly different.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: blackdogdeek
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I know he complained about it in the article, but I just think that there is something wrong with people who don't like children. They seem to not understand that if people did not have children, we wouldn't be here. Basically every hobby, activity, job or whatever was created or done by someone else who had a mother and father. If you cannot love a child, you are not living. You cannot truly love yourself. I'm not saying everyone should have children. I'm also not saying that some people don't regret having them.

I think his mistake is to assume that doing x behavior automatically means that you can't do y behavior. You can have kids and travel. You can still be famous. (not for me personally) You don't have to spend every Saturday with your family. He might find that the quality of relationship that you can build up with family is much stronger than this weak bond that he speaks off that becomes obvious when old friends come together and don't understand each other anymore.

Overall a decent article, but I think the guy is a bit of a narcissist.

i didn't read anything about him not liking children. he did imply he didn't want to have children. but not liking and not wanting are vastly different.

Maybe I took it wrong, but he had very negative comments in my opinion.

For instance:

"Most of my married friends now have children, the rewards of which appear to be exclusively intangible and, like the mysteries of some gnostic sect, incommunicable to outsiders. In fact it seems from the outside as if these people have joined a dubious cult: they claim to be much happier and more fulfilled than ever before, even though they live in conditions of appalling filth and degradation, deprived of the most basic freedoms and dignity, and owe unquestioning obedience to a capricious and demented master. "

I think maybe this guy doesn't understand that sometimes the greatest rewards come with a price tag.

I have been with the same woman for 10 years now. We also have a 2 and a half year old daughter.

Yes , at times I have fought like hell with my girlfriend at times. Yes, I have had to clean my daughter's crib after she quietly wiped shit all over the place after a nap. I would clean a thousand more shitty cribs if it was necessary. The reward of building a long term relationship with someone is much greater to me than spending so much time by myself that I become unable to understand how other people feel. The reward of taking care of a child and doing it the right way is much greater (to me) than being able to have semi-indiscriminate sex or being able to whisk off to some country. He acknowledged that being single with no kids is lonely, but I got the feeling he didn't really mean it.

I don't think it is cult like behavior to continue the human race. That expands the definition of cult to be basically meaningless.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,453
10
81
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: blackdogdeek
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I know he complained about it in the article, but I just think that there is something wrong with people who don't like children. They seem to not understand that if people did not have children, we wouldn't be here. Basically every hobby, activity, job or whatever was created or done by someone else who had a mother and father. If you cannot love a child, you are not living. You cannot truly love yourself. I'm not saying everyone should have children. I'm also not saying that some people don't regret having them.

I think his mistake is to assume that doing x behavior automatically means that you can't do y behavior. You can have kids and travel. You can still be famous. (not for me personally) You don't have to spend every Saturday with your family. He might find that the quality of relationship that you can build up with family is much stronger than this weak bond that he speaks off that becomes obvious when old friends come together and don't understand each other anymore.

Overall a decent article, but I think the guy is a bit of a narcissist.

i didn't read anything about him not liking children. he did imply he didn't want to have children. but not liking and not wanting are vastly different.

Maybe I took it wrong, but he had very negative comments in my opinion.

For instance:

"Most of my married friends now have children, the rewards of which appear to be exclusively intangible and, like the mysteries of some gnostic sect, incommunicable to outsiders. In fact it seems from the outside as if these people have joined a dubious cult: they claim to be much happier and more fulfilled than ever before, even though they live in conditions of appalling filth and degradation, deprived of the most basic freedoms and dignity, and owe unquestioning obedience to a capricious and demented master. "

I think maybe this guy doesn't understand that sometimes the greatest rewards come with a price tag.

they are negative, but i think they are accurate. the rewards are completely intangible, and they are impossible to convey. i am deprived of many of the basic freedoms i once relished and am at the beck and call of a most demented master. two, in fact. however, without being able to comprehend the rewards, all he can comment on are the caveats. these are definitely concrete.

but it's really about what's important to you. despite the above, i would never, ever want a life without my girls. i wouldn't call him a narcissist. just a realist who doesn't know better.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
I love our culture so much. Not only do we exhibit the attention span of a gnat, eschewing anything that can't be brought to us in 140 characters or less, but we are so proud of our self-imposed ignorance that we actually bother to tell other people that a 1,400 word article is too long for our feeble minds to deal with in a single sitting. How great we are!

I actually did read the article, and I found it amusing and somewhat applicable in my own life, though I am younger than the generation he is writing for and about. I do compare my lives to those of friends, especially those I've known since childhood, and I can see how seemingly insignificant decisions have led our lives in profoundly different ways. But I don't think we solely compare ourselves to our peers. I think most of us compare ourselves to ideal portrayals as put forth in television and film, and hope that we can measure up to a fictionalized account of what should be considered ideal in our society.

But he's right. Life's too short to experience everything, and we may well end up wishing we could experience what others have, if only briefly.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,453
10
81
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
I love our culture so much. Not only do we exhibit the attention span of a gnat, eschewing anything that can't be brought to us in 140 characters or less, but we are so proud of our self-imposed ignorance that we actually bother to tell other people that a 1,400 word article is too long for our feeble minds to deal with in a single sitting. How great we are!

I actually did read the article, and I found it amusing and somewhat applicable in my own life, though I am younger than the generation he is writing for and about. I do compare my lives to those of friends, especially those I've known since childhood, and I can see how seemingly insignificant decisions have led our lives in profoundly different ways. But I don't think we solely compare ourselves to our peers. I think most of us compare ourselves to ideal portrayals as put forth in television and film, and hope that we can measure up to a fictionalized account of what should be considered ideal in our society.

But he's right. Life's too short to experience everything, and we may well end up wishing we could experience what others have, if only briefly.

tl;dr
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
I liked the article. The basic premise seems, to me, to be true enough. That people tend to live vicariously through others. When doing that, we try to validate the life choices we made for ourselves, based on how things worked out for others. It's both understandable but inherently, on some level, judgmental at the same time.

He was also musing at how great a divide certain life choices can make between once close friends. Some people have families and others maintain single life. Over the span of a decade-or-so, those similar young adults can have practically nothing in common, other than a briefly shared history.
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
I found the article to be very relevant to my situation. As someone in my 20's, I'm finding that I have the freedom to make many decisions that don't have a simple right/wrong outcome anymore, as was often the case when I was a child and teenager. You can analyze the options, but you eventually reach a point in which you have to just act and see how things end up.

I also often wonder about how things would be now if I had made different choices at various points throughout the last several years. Again, it's not a question of one choice definitely being better than another, but just a question of how things would have turned out differently.

I also share the author's attitude toward children and possibly married life as well.
 

rgwalt

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2000
7,393
0
0
Originally posted by: blackdogdeek
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: blackdogdeek
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I know he complained about it in the article, but I just think that there is something wrong with people who don't like children. They seem to not understand that if people did not have children, we wouldn't be here. Basically every hobby, activity, job or whatever was created or done by someone else who had a mother and father. If you cannot love a child, you are not living. You cannot truly love yourself. I'm not saying everyone should have children. I'm also not saying that some people don't regret having them.

I think his mistake is to assume that doing x behavior automatically means that you can't do y behavior. You can have kids and travel. You can still be famous. (not for me personally) You don't have to spend every Saturday with your family. He might find that the quality of relationship that you can build up with family is much stronger than this weak bond that he speaks off that becomes obvious when old friends come together and don't understand each other anymore.

Overall a decent article, but I think the guy is a bit of a narcissist.

i didn't read anything about him not liking children. he did imply he didn't want to have children. but not liking and not wanting are vastly different.

Maybe I took it wrong, but he had very negative comments in my opinion.

For instance:

"Most of my married friends now have children, the rewards of which appear to be exclusively intangible and, like the mysteries of some gnostic sect, incommunicable to outsiders. In fact it seems from the outside as if these people have joined a dubious cult: they claim to be much happier and more fulfilled than ever before, even though they live in conditions of appalling filth and degradation, deprived of the most basic freedoms and dignity, and owe unquestioning obedience to a capricious and demented master. "

I think maybe this guy doesn't understand that sometimes the greatest rewards come with a price tag.

they are negative, but i think they are accurate. the rewards are completely intangible, and they are impossible to convey. i am deprived of many of the basic freedoms i once relished and am at the beck and call of a most demented master. two, in fact. however, without being able to comprehend the rewards, all he can comment on are the caveats. these are definitely concrete.

but it's really about what's important to you. despite the above, i would never, ever want a life without my girls. i wouldn't call him a narcissist. just a realist who doesn't know better.

I agree completely! I am in the same boat as the author of this story... I have friends whose marriages would drive me to divorce in no time, but they seem to deal and live on. My friends with kids seem to be incapable of talking about anything else. My friends who want kids are so singularly-minded about the pursuit, they cannot seem to fathom as to why I am not interested. I realize that the experience must be rewarding and gratifying in its own way, but I haven't been able to experience that for myself. I've never really held or cared for a child, and from what I have discerned, it is definitely a chore. But, billions of people do it, so there must be some value in the experience that I am not privy to. However, this doesn't mean that everyone alive needs to have children in order to experience life. We all experience life differently, some with families, and some without, and having a family is not a necessary part of the experience.

I like my freedom, I like my free time. I like being able to do what I want, when I want without having to answer to anyone. I like not having to make excuses for not getting out of bed before noon on a Sunday, or spending $2500 on a new TV. I get a lot of gratification out of my freedom. However, I go to bed alone, and I realize there is a trade-off.

I think the author hits the subject very well. Single people are in a different universe from married people and people with families. As we get older and set in our ways, we tend to lose the ability to connect and relate to people in the alternate universe. We tend to feel that our life path is "best" and we are winning the race. The problem with this mentality is that at the end of it all, there are no prizes. You have to be happy and satisfied with your own choices. Whether that is getting married or staying un-attached, or having children or remaining childless. These pursuits (and the countless others in life) are right for some people and wrong for others.

To call the author "negative" or dismiss him because he doesn't like children is to be ignorant of the points he was trying to make and the personal-value of the choices he has made. The author wasn't trying to say that his single life is better, but rather that it is very different and that his lifestyle has distinct advantages (and disadvantages) over others. People find various sources of gratification, and not everyone finds gratification in the same thing.

Talk to an olympic skiier, or someone who enjoys sailing so much they take trips around the world, or simply talk to anyone who is truly passionate about anything (including being a parent). When you do you may find that this person tells you about all of the joy they get from the experience and how "you should try it because you'll love it". It is natural for people to try and spread their joy of the things in life to others. However, what brings that person joy may not "be" for everyone else. For instance, I hate heights and moving fast with little control over my actions. Hence, I detest skiing and rollercoasters. What brings joy to the skiier and the coaster junky puts terror into my heart... Much like the thought of having kids.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: rgwalt
I hate heights and moving fast with little control over my actions. Hence, I detest skiing and rollercoasters. What brings joy to the skiier and the coaster junky puts terror into my heart... Much like the thought of having kids.

This statement is amusing when it is followed immediately by your sig: "I will face my fear. I will let it pass through me."

Ah, irony.
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
Originally posted by: rgwalt
I like my freedom, I like my free time. I like being able to do what I want, when I want without having to answer to anyone. I like not having to make excuses for not getting out of bed before noon on a Sunday, or spending $2500 on a new TV. I get a lot of gratification out of my freedom. However, I go to bed alone, and I realize there is a trade-off.

Perhaps the married AT'ers could comment on this, but as a single guy I would suspect that going from married to married + kids places much larger restrictions on your time and money than going from single to married does. If you're married without kids, you are likely both working and have 2 incomes to spend as you please. Obviously there is the whole issue of financial responsibility and living within your means, but beyond that it seems that married couples who each have their own separate careers still have a good deal of the financial freedom they had as singles. As far as time goes, are the committments on time to a married couple without children really that much more difficult than a single person?

I can see why going from married to married + children would have a huge impact on time and money, however. If one parent quits working to take care of the children, the family's income could take a significant hit. Combine this with the fact that children are expensive, and it's easy to see how they can severly restrict a family financially. Children also require a great deal of time to raise.

My main point is that while the author seems to associate married life and children with a huge restriction of free time and money, it seems to me that going from single to married has much less of an impact on free time and money than going from married to married + kids does.

Any married AT'ers care to comment?

 
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