Young Americans Living with Snipers

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

I'll pass.

it seems you also will "pass" on his recommendation to get first hand information on what's really happening over there

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I don't think soldiers are heroes. I don't feel the need to clap for them or anything like that. However I think many would appreciate not being made a spectacle in public, they are just doing their jobs. Just as I think true patriots don't need to wave a flag, affix a ribbon, or thank a soldier. It's all good.

Ummmm... what?

They're getting shot at constantly, can't walk or drive down a road without a risk of getting blown up, and are in an otherwise hostile environment, depending on where they're stationed. Soldiers in general might not be heroes, but those on the front lines certainly are.

 

[Viper Frag]

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

Just like the German citizens backed Hitler during the 30s and 40s? No way.

WOW!! yea that's a low blow. I didn't think we were under a dictator, but anyway just shows how much you know. Like I've said before to other people, supporting the military is not synonymous with supporting current heads of office. We only enforce policy, we don't create it.

Viper-Frag

PS: Wow and your from Texas too!! thats a real shocker, Guess your no steer.

Hi Viper, care to answer this question?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2136800

And, FYI, those that you are labeling "insurgents" are actually "heroes" in their country. Much like if a foreign force was to occupy this US of A, I'd be an "insurgent" in heart beat.

Ok now your really confusing me because most of the insurgents that we have dealt with aren't from Iraq at all. The majority of Iraqi's are terrified from the insurgents. I don't remember killing our own when we were forming this nation, as far as killing our own people so they can live in fear.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

Just like the German citizens backed Hitler during the 30s and 40s? No way.

WOW!! yea that's a low blow. I didn't think we were under a dictator, but anyway just shows how much you know. Like I've said before to other people, supporting the military is not synonymous with supporting current heads of office. We only enforce policy, we don't create it.

Viper-Frag

PS: Wow and your from Texas too!! thats a real shocker, Guess your no steer.

Hi Viper, care to answer this question?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2136800

And, FYI, those that you are labeling "insurgents" are actually "heroes" in their country. Much like if a foreign force was to occupy this US of A, I'd be an "insurgent" in heart beat.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think they are heroes. First, many insurgents are foreign fighters who are there basically just to stir shit up, bombing holy sites to get all sides pissed off at each other. Second, this isn't like we're a foreign ruling power. It isn't like if China came here and put us under Chinese rule. A democratic process has been established wherein you should be able to, without violence, bring about change (and if you want to argue about the conditions of that government, you can blame the "heroes" for not allowing it to function as it should). As it stands we are there as a security force, allowed to stay by the elected Iraqi government.

I see the value in backing up and looking at the conflict objectively, but even in doing that I see who the good and bad guys are. The good guys are the American soldiers trying to keep the peace and the bad guys are the insurgents who are disrupting the formation of a democratic government.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: Googer

Originally posted by: 13Gigatons
dumb policy.
dumb president.
dumb voters.

I'm always against Nation Building because it can go on for decades and it ends up not working. Sigh...such foolish behavior that's getting so many people killed.

It worked well For Japan.

And the Marshall Plan worked great for Europe, too.

we didn't have to design governemnt or invent nations in japan or western europe, germany, france, japan, italy, had already existing governments and goverment traditions.

on the other hand, iraq is not an ethnicity, race, or religion. Iraq was invented in the 20's by the british, and was designed to be a weak and broken country. there are citizens of iraq, but there are no iraqi's.

 

[Viper Frag]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I don't think soldiers are heroes. I don't feel the need to clap for them or anything like that. However I think many would appreciate not being made a spectacle in public, they are just doing their jobs. Just as I think true patriots don't need to wave a flag, affix a ribbon, or thank a soldier. It's all good.

I agree, you don't have to be waving a flag 24/7. I don't consider myself a hero, I'm just doing my job. You can thank me or my men or not doesn't matter; however, it would just be a nice jesture, just like I would thank you out of common courtesy simply for doing a simple favor or what have you. By all means we are not high and mighty and apologize if i at all made it seem that way. It would just be nice to know that your own people don't hate you or despise you.

Viper-Frag

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
Jpeyton,

You seem focused only to point out the faults in our military service members, almost seems that you take pride in it as well. I might even question as to your level of patriatism; however, your comments havn't got to that level yet. Why don't you mention about the horrific tactics of the insurgents that they have used against us. I've seen first hand during a middle of an engagement several insurgents would use women and children as human sheilds then make sure to have a video camera nearby aka AL-Jazeera recording the deaths of this women and children and placing the blame on us saying that that's all we target and making us seem ruthless and without any morals. You seem so quick to judge the actions of our service members, may I ask have you ever had any combat experience? What makes you think that you have the knowledge to criticize what goes on? All you can do is get second hand probaly mostly third hand information. Have you ever had the curiosity as to get it first hand? I unfortunatly have had first hand experience in Anbar and Bagdhad. Please let qualified personnel criticize what is going on in OIF and OEF. You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.
*/sarcasm/Oh and thanks for replying to the PM I sent you a while back.*

Viper-Frag
CPT, US ARMY
2x OIF Vet

because he has higher standards for his country then you do, is a better american, and doesn't need to legitimize and excuse the despicable actions of his piers with the disgusting actions of his enemies.

So far you are the only person in this thread that has shown questionable patriotism, and your excusing of the actions of your comrades in arms is disgusting.

 

[Saulbadguy]

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I don't think soldiers are heroes. I don't feel the need to clap for them or anything like that. However I think many would appreciate not being made a spectacle in public, they are just doing their jobs. Just as I think true patriots don't need to wave a flag, affix a ribbon, or thank a soldier. It's all good.

I agree, you don't have to be waving a flag 24/7. I don't consider myself a hero, I'm just doing my job. You can thank me or my men or not doesn't matter; however, it would just be a nice jesture, just like I would thank you out of common courtesy simply for doing a simple favor or what have you. By all means we are not high and mighty and apologize if i at all made it seem that way. It would just be nice to know that your own people don't hate you or despise you.

Viper-Frag

I don't think that many people hate you. You just get a bad representation on this board because it's full of dumbasses who hide behind the anonymity of the internet. How many times in real life have you had someone approach you and trash your service?

Anyways - I choose not to thank soldiers at this time because I don't agree with why we are over there, so I don't feel the need to thank them. I would never disrespect them either, though, under any circumstance. It's pointless and stupid, they are just doing their job.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
I don't remember killing our own when we were forming this nation, as far as killing our own people so they can live in fear.

you weren't there, and stuff like that doesn't get much mention in our patriotic textbooks.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

Just like the German citizens backed Hitler during the 30s and 40s? No way.

WOW!! yea that's a low blow. I didn't think we were under a dictator, but anyway just shows how much you know. Like I've said before to other people, supporting the military is not synonymous with supporting current heads of office. We only enforce policy, we don't create it.

Viper-Frag

PS: Wow and your from Texas too!! thats a real shocker, Guess your no steer.

Hi Viper, care to answer this question?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2136800

And, FYI, those that you are labeling "insurgents" are actually "heroes" in their country. Much like if a foreign force was to occupy this US of A, I'd be an "insurgent" in heart beat.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think they are heroes. First, many insurgents are foreign fighters who are there basically just to stir shit up, bombing holy sites to get all sides pissed off at each other. Second, this isn't like we're a foreign ruling power. It isn't like if China came here and put us under Chinese rule. A democratic process has been established wherein you should be able to, without violence, bring about change (and if you want to argue about the conditions of that government, you can blame the "heroes" for not allowing it to function as it should). As it stands we are there as a security force, allowed to stay by the elected Iraqi government.

I see the value in backing up and looking at the conflict objectively, but even in doing that I see who the good and bad guys are. The good guys are the American soldiers trying to keep the peace and the bad guys are the insurgents who are disrupting the formation of a democratic government.

'a democratic process' doesn't means that peopel don't view you as a foriegn conquering power. Democracy and liberty aren't the miracle cure that people want it to be, and in the case of iraq its probably more of a problem then a help.

 

[Farang]

You guys bashing the military aren't even making good arguments. For me it has nothing to do with being patriotic and blindly supporting the troops, but you're just being thoughtless in how you objectively analyze the situation, while in the process disrespecting someone who doesn't deserve it.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

Just like the German citizens backed Hitler during the 30s and 40s? No way.

WOW!! yea that's a low blow. I didn't think we were under a dictator, but anyway just shows how much you know. Like I've said before to other people, supporting the military is not synonymous with supporting current heads of office. We only enforce policy, we don't create it.

Viper-Frag

PS: Wow and your from Texas too!! thats a real shocker, Guess your no steer.

Hi Viper, care to answer this question?

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2136800

And, FYI, those that you are labeling "insurgents" are actually "heroes" in their country. Much like if a foreign force was to occupy this US of A, I'd be an "insurgent" in heart beat.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think they are heroes. First, many insurgents are foreign fighters who are there basically just to stir shit up, bombing holy sites to get all sides pissed off at each other. Second, this isn't like we're a foreign ruling power. It isn't like if China came here and put us under Chinese rule. A democratic process has been established wherein you should be able to, without violence, bring about change (and if you want to argue about the conditions of that government, you can blame the "heroes" for not allowing it to function as it should). As it stands we are there as a security force, allowed to stay by the elected Iraqi government.

I see the value in backing up and looking at the conflict objectively, but even in doing that I see who the good and bad guys are. The good guys are the American soldiers trying to keep the peace and the bad guys are the insurgents who are disrupting the formation of a democratic government.

'a democratic process' doesn't means that peopel don't view you as a foriegn conquering power. Democracy and liberty aren't the miracle cure that people want it to be, and in the case of iraq its probably more of a problem then a help.

If they misinterpret our presence there that doesn't give them the right to kill us and be labeled heroes. It is as if a select group of Germans starting attacking our bases there, because we were a foreign military and they "viewed [us] as a foreign conquering power." That doesn't take away from the fact that we have an agreement with the German government to be there and they have no right to attack our troops. In the case of Iraq, we are there to fight mostly foreign terrorists so the democratic Iraqi government can function properly, and we are there with the endorsement of that government.

Of course democracy is a miracle cure. It allows for people to air their grievances without the use of violence, and for people to choose how to be governed. If Iraqi insurgents would participate in government rather than kill innocent civilians and these "foreign occupiers," a functioning government could operate and those foreign occupiers could be kicked out if the people decided democratically. The only reason they use violence is because they see it as giving them more leverage than they would otherwise have, which for me strips away any label such as 'heroic patriot' you want to stamp on them.

 

[Viper Frag]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
Jpeyton,

You seem focused only to point out the faults in our military service members, almost seems that you take pride in it as well. I might even question as to your level of patriatism; however, your comments havn't got to that level yet. Why don't you mention about the horrific tactics of the insurgents that they have used against us. I've seen first hand during a middle of an engagement several insurgents would use women and children as human sheilds then make sure to have a video camera nearby aka AL-Jazeera recording the deaths of this women and children and placing the blame on us saying that that's all we target and making us seem ruthless and without any morals. You seem so quick to judge the actions of our service members, may I ask have you ever had any combat experience? What makes you think that you have the knowledge to criticize what goes on? All you can do is get second hand probaly mostly third hand information. Have you ever had the curiosity as to get it first hand? I unfortunatly have had first hand experience in Anbar and Bagdhad. Please let qualified personnel criticize what is going on in OIF and OEF. You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.
*/sarcasm/Oh and thanks for replying to the PM I sent you a while back.*

Viper-Frag
CPT, US ARMY
2x OIF Vet

because he has higher standards for his country then you do, is a better american, and doesn't need to legitimize and excuse the despicable actions of his piers with the disgusting actions of his enemies.

So far you are the only person in this thread that has shown questionable patriotism, and your excusing of the actions of your comrades in arms is disgusting.

As far as I remember I never "excused" the service members who have comitted blatant crimes. Oh and as far as questioning my patriotism, don't make me laugh. This coming from someone who calls him or herself an idiot? Sticks and stones man....

Viper-Frag

 

[SSSnail]

Invading a sovereign country, plunder its resource, trying to set up puppet government is not "democracy". I wouldn't be surprised that the very people that are trying to bring "peace" to the region has a black hand in its destabilization.

Divide and conquer, make them all hate each others, scape goats...

As for the military presence there, most are fed the "fighting for freedom, democracy" idiom and because they have no choice but to obey and carry out their orders. That then grew into a conflict, one between two stern believes; the belief of fighting for freedom and democracy and those that are actually fighting for the same. It's ironic that both would die for the same belief, not necessary the same cause.

I support the troops, bring them home.

 

[tranceport]

Viper-Frag keep up the good work and ignore all of this crap.

I'm sure none of these people would say this negative crap to your face. I'd sure walk up and shake your hand though. I absolutely appreciate your service.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: TehMac
I'm not buying this one, because Insurgents have a history of just hiding in civilian dress, and being little pussies, because they know their anti American ass would get blown out of the little caves they hide in if they revealed themselves.

You don't have to buy it. The prosecutors already bought it, and they're handing out court-martials and dishonorable discharges like its nobody's business.

 

[DarkThinker]

Well, I don't mean to sound like Mr.Obvious here, but WTH did you guys expect? This is a warzone, the local occupation resistance will not welcome you with flower & roses being catapulted from every corner to make you feel good, WTH would you guys do were we to have foreign soldiers occupying our country?...Exactly, it doesn't matter how nice or innocent you are or if you have kids, at the end of the day you are just another soldier of the thousands that are occupying the country by force.

 

[MyThirdEye]

Originally posted by: Googer
Keep morale high, support the brave.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TehMac
I'm not buying this one, because Insurgents have a history of just hiding in civilian dress, and being little pussies, because they know their anti American ass would get blown out of the little caves they hide in if they revealed themselves.

You don't have to buy it. The prosecutors already bought it, and they're handing out court-martials and dishonorable discharges like its nobody's business.

Oh so you mean that we hold those people accountable and prosecute those that break the law as opposed to our enemy who encourage and praise that kind of behavior? You do realize that people in the military are human and there are going to be a few bad apples right?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Googer
Keep morale high, support the brave.

Well that sounds all nice and fine on the surface and gives you a fuzzy feeling and all of that good stuff, but what if doing the patriotic thing, is actually not to support the soldiers? Should we support them blindly because they are the soldiers?
Should we stand behind the president because, well...he is?
The soldiers should be respected for carrying out their duties of course no doubt in my mind, however if supporting the soldiers means supporting the false cause they are fighting for, then I choose not to support the soldiers, because the more I support them, the further they push the false cause which would be contradictory to my principles. It's a tough choice I understand but at the end, it all depends on either you want what's just to happen, or you just want to be blindly patriotic as far as patriotic goes....

I know some would love to see me crash and burn for such a statement, but I get equally pissed off when I see a rising wave of blind patriotism, this usually happens just before a country is reaching the verge of dictatorship.
Give the people an enemy, create a false cause, have people support their army, label those who don't as unpatriotic traitors...you know the rest.

The only way I would support the troops, is if they want to fight no more in this unjustified war and just want to come back home safely.

 

[Viper Frag]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Googer
Keep morale high, support the brave.

Well that sounds all nice and fine on the surface and gives you a fuzzy feeling and all of that good stuff, but what if doing the patriotic thing, is actually not to support the soldiers? Should we support them blindly because they are the soldiers?
Should we stand behind the president because, well...he is?
The soldiers should be respected for carrying out their duties of course no doubt in my mind, however if supporting the soldiers means supporting the false cause they are fighting for, then I choose not to support the soldiers, because the more I support them, the further they push the false cause which would be contradictory to my principles. It's a tough choice I understand but at the end, it all depends on either you want what's just to happen, or you just want to be blindly patriotic as far as patriotic goes....

I know some would love to see me crash and burn for such a statement, but I get equally pissed off when I see a rising wave of blind patriotism, this usually happens just before a country is reaching the verge of dictatorship.
Give the people an enemy, create a false cause, have people support their army, label those who don't as unpatriotic traitors...you know the rest.

The only way I would support the troops, is if they want to fight no more in this unjustified war and just want to come back home safely.

Do you think we are out there for fun? It's not exactly Disney World out there for us. Of course soldiers want to go home and be with their families. The troops would love to go home.

Viper-Frag

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The only way I would support the troops, is if they want to fight no more in this unjustified war and just want to come back home safely.

Put some of these on your car and stop blaspheming Heir Bush's Grand War.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The only way I would support the troops, is if they want to fight no more in this unjustified war and just want to come back home safely.

Put some of these on your car and stop blaspheming Heir Bush's Grand War.

Have you done anything but troll in this thread?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: JD50
Have you done anything but troll in this thread?

If your definition of trolling is not getting on my knees for the troops...then no.

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Viper-Frag
You as a US citizen should be backing up your militiary service members.

Just like the German citizens backed Hitler during the 30s and 40s? No way.

WOW!! yea that's a low blow. I didn't think we were under a dictator, but anyway just shows how much you know. Like I've said before to other people, supporting the military is not synonymous with supporting current heads of office. We only enforce policy, we don't create it.

Viper-Frag

PS: Wow and your from Texas too!! thats a real shocker, Guess your no steer.

See the Nuremburg trials, look what happened to the SS and officers who were "just following orders."

I'm no steer, but I'm not a mindless sheep either.