Your thoughts on cheating and HS/College in general

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: Furyline
If people cheat their way through college without a true understanding of the material, it bothers me because it cheapens the value of my education. If a company hires someone from my college and finds they don't really know what they should, they will think twice when they see that college on my resume.

Plus, at least for me, I don't really know how I would cheat at a job without getting in serious trouble.

Just to play a bit more of the devil's advocate...

Wouldn't them looking worse than you boost your brownie points with the company? Especially if thats all they had for a comparison?

 

[novasatori]

not in college, I did cheat a bit in HS
I also report all cheaters, I will tell the teacher I think certain people are cheating without giving names, so he gives a talk in class. If it continues I will tell him who.
It pissed me off because I've had a lot of classes where the teacher will use a normal distribution for the grades, or combine two or three sections and do the distribution that way. Using the second method I've noticed the 2nd section harassing the first section about the questions on the quizzes/tests and this gives them time to review for the correct answers.
I report this as well, as it doesn't do anything but fvck me over AND the other people in my section, some people are really ****** stupid.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: novasatori
not in college, I did cheat a bit in HS
I also report all cheaters, I will tell the teacher I think certain people are cheating without giving names, so he gives a talk in class. If it continues I will tell him who.
It pissed me off because I've had a lot of classes where the teacher will use a normal distribution for the grades, or combine two or three sections and do the distribution that way. Using the second method I've noticed the 2nd section harassing the first section about the questions on the quizzes/tests and this gives them time to review for the correct answers.
I report this as well, as it doesn't do anything but fvck me over AND the other people in my section, some people are really ****** stupid.

I dont see how it would screw you over. It is up to you to get your grade. No one else cheating should affect your grade. If you are referring to a curve being distorted because of them then I can sort of see your point. The only exception is that grades should be defined in the syllabus at the beginning of the semester. If you earn an A based on that criteria then you deserve an A. If the curve only brings you to a B and not an A then thats tough. You didn't earn the A anyway.

 

[doze]

There is no such thing as cheating at work if you get the job done right. In fact if you get the job done, faster, cheaper, better than your counterparts you may be eligible for a raise or promotion.

Cheating at school is another story

 

[RallyMaster]

Can't believe AgaBoogaBoo hasn't replied to this thing yet. "Work smart, not hard." KTHX

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: doze
There is no such thing as cheating at work if you get the job done right. In fact if you get the job done, faster, cheaper, better than your counterparts you may be eligible for a raise or promotion.

Cheating at school is another story

I guess I was talking more about copying others (coworkers) ideas/work and passing them off as your own at ideas/work.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: novasatori
not in college, I did cheat a bit in HS
I also report all cheaters, I will tell the teacher I think certain people are cheating without giving names, so he gives a talk in class. If it continues I will tell him who.
It pissed me off because I've had a lot of classes where the teacher will use a normal distribution for the grades, or combine two or three sections and do the distribution that way. Using the second method I've noticed the 2nd section harassing the first section about the questions on the quizzes/tests and this gives them time to review for the correct answers.
I report this as well, as it doesn't do anything but fvck me over AND the other people in my section, some people are really ****** stupid.

I dont see how it would screw you over. It is up to you to get your grade. No one else cheating should affect your grade. If you are referring to a curve being distorted because of them then I can sort of see your point. The only exception is that grades should be defined in the syllabus at the beginning of the semester. If you earn an A based on that criteria then you deserve an A. If the curve only brings you to a B and not an A then thats tough. You didn't earn the A anyway.

Many college professors will state in their syllabi that grading scales are subject to change, meaning that some shifting can occur in order to normalize the class' distribution. In this instance, cheating would have a direct impact on you/me/whoever.

Even in instances in which it does not directly affect my grade, I still feel that it's wrong, since, as you've said, the person will obtain the benefits of the grade without putting in the requisite work/time to earn them. In an intro-level college course, this might not seem like a big deal, but if someone is plagiarizing their dissertation, then I doubt anyone would see it as inconsequential.

That being said, I've always felt that the act of cheating itself reflects aspects of a person's character.

 

[rocadelpunk]

as a future math teacher I will not tolerate any cheating (hwk/quizzes/tests) and I will make damn sure it doesn't happen.

I take this stance b/c I cheated a couple times and once I got caught. I'll never forget the dissapointment across everybody's face.

a.) I want to instill in my kids a love of learning in all subjects (aka don't cheat themselves out of knowledge)

b.) I want them to have pride and confidence in themselves/their work

as others have said, cheating is a reflection upon your character.

c.) I want them to always know they can come and talk to me...about their problems/whatever drove them to want to cheat...and we'll work something out.

and several more reasons

but time to get back to the books

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
To me, it's more a matter of ethics than anything "evil"...if you can't be trusted to do your work without cheating, what CAN you be trusted for? I dislike liars and thieves, and cheating is a bit of both.

QFT.

Cheaters are low-life scum. I'd rather bomb an exam than cheat, and that's exactly what I've done. If I don't do the work I know I don't deserve the grade.

As for the cheating = thievery comment... if the class is based on a bell curve, you might have "stolen" a letter grade/+/- from someone because you did better than them thru cheating, bumping them down the distribution. Insignificant, but if many people cheat, definitely significant.

 

[Cooler]

While I think cheating is wrong because of lack of honesty and that you?re only hurting your own education. I also think reporting it is also not a good idea. It is the cheater's /professors business on whether they get caught not some student?s job. Most good cheaters will never get caught and the one who are not will eventually run out of luck and will be found out by the professor or their boss. No need to get involved directly and make an enemy for no reason. Only time it may be good idea to report a cheater is when every thing is curved thus it effects your grade or the work is stolen off you. (copied a paper your wrote )

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Cooler
While I think cheating is wrong because of lack of honesty and that you?re only hurting your own education. I also think reporting it is also not a good idea. It is the cheater's /professors business on whether they get caught not some student?s job. Most good cheaters will never get caught and the one who are not will eventually run out of luck and will be found out by the professor or their boss. No need to get involved directly and make an enemy for no reason. Only time it may be good idea to report a cheater is when every thing is curved thus it effects your grade or the work is stole off you. (copied a paper your wrote )

FWIW, according to my university's honor code, if you see someone cheat you are bound to report it. IMO no one cares though, which is sad. My generation is a bunch of self-centered pricks.

 

[necine]

Do what you have to do.... If you need to cheat to get that paper done, or ace a test do it. It honestly doesnt hurt anyone.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Cheating is wrong.

Justify it all you want, only person you're truly lying to is yourself. I don't have much else to say, other than I hope the person changes, some people won't change and that's my biggest fear. If you change, good, otherwise you will be severely hurting your own life.

Again, only person you're lying to is yourself. Chances are, it's not the only thing you lie to yourself about as well, you probably do it for other things and that will hurt only you in the end.

No one will change because they are told to, that's the last thing that's going to happen. They will not change because of a rule, statistic, or anything someone has said. They will however, change, if and only if they truly feel they need to. Until then, it's a downward spiral and a person has to hit rock bottom in order to be able to rise from something like this.

Edit: One more note - if you cheat to bring your B to an A or something like that, don't. This is just the beginning of the downward spiral I mentioned. Making up excuses or justifying whatever you do is just lying to yourself.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
as a future math teacher I will not tolerate any cheating (hwk/quizzes/tests) and I will make damn sure it doesn't happen.

I take this stance b/c I cheated a couple times and once I got caught. I'll never forget the dissapointment across everybody's face.

a.) I want to instill in my kids a love of learning in all subjects (aka don't cheat themselves out of knowledge)

b.) I want them to have pride and confidence in themselves/their work

as others have said, cheating is a reflection upon your character.

c.) I want them to always know they can come and talk to me...about their problems/whatever drove them to want to cheat...and we'll work something out.

and several more reasons

but time to get back to the books

That is an amazing idea but the truth of the matter is nobody is going to like everything. It is very difficult to get someone to even acknowledge every subject let alone, respect each subject let alone, be interested in all subjects. I do admire your drive and I hope you keep it throughout teaching. Nothings worse than a burned out old teacher just waiting to retire.

Good luck

 

[RallyMaster]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Cheating is wrong.

Justify it all you want, only person you're truly lying to is yourself. I don't have much else to say, other than I hope the person changes, some people won't change and that's my biggest fear. If you change, good, otherwise you will be severely hurting your own life.

Again, only person you're lying to is yourself. Chances are, it's not the only thing you lie to yourself about as well, you probably do it for other things and that will hurt only you in the end.

No one will change because they are told to, that's the last thing that's going to happen. They will not change because of a rule, statistic, or anything someone has said. They will however, change, if and only if they truly feel they need to. Until then, it's a downward spiral and a person has to hit rock bottom in order to be able to rise from something like this.

Ah yes...the irony....

 

[novasatori]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: novasatori
not in college, I did cheat a bit in HS
I also report all cheaters, I will tell the teacher I think certain people are cheating without giving names, so he gives a talk in class. If it continues I will tell him who.
It pissed me off because I've had a lot of classes where the teacher will use a normal distribution for the grades, or combine two or three sections and do the distribution that way. Using the second method I've noticed the 2nd section harassing the first section about the questions on the quizzes/tests and this gives them time to review for the correct answers.
I report this as well, as it doesn't do anything but fvck me over AND the other people in my section, some people are really ****** stupid.

I dont see how it would screw you over. It is up to you to get your grade. No one else cheating should affect your grade. If you are referring to a curve being distorted because of them then I can sort of see your point. The only exception is that grades should be defined in the syllabus at the beginning of the semester. If you earn an A based on that criteria then you deserve an A. If the curve only brings you to a B and not an A then thats tough. You didn't earn the A anyway.

I've had quite a few classes where the lower 50% of class = fail regardless of grade, and the upper 50% = pass, top 10% being A etc, so if people cheated and didn't do their own work it can easily screw people over. I don't see how you say this doesn't effect me, it has CLEAR effects on my grade.

For instance say I make a 76 and the B breaks at 76 after curves or distribution at the end of the class, but say instead someone cheated and pushes that up.
So, regardless of how well I did I could wind up with a C because people cheated

As for the scenario with the first section helping the second, if the second section does better than the first overwhelmingly (which they were, because of cheating) and both sections are combined it automatically puts the first section towards the lower end of the curve which has a serious effect on my grade.

I've been in a number of classes where the averages on tests were 40s all it takes is someone cheating a 70 or so and it will seriously mess up the distribution.

See? Cheating fvcks other people over, far more than you give credit.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: novasatori

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: novasatori
not in college, I did cheat a bit in HS
I also report all cheaters, I will tell the teacher I think certain people are cheating without giving names, so he gives a talk in class. If it continues I will tell him who.
It pissed me off because I've had a lot of classes where the teacher will use a normal distribution for the grades, or combine two or three sections and do the distribution that way. Using the second method I've noticed the 2nd section harassing the first section about the questions on the quizzes/tests and this gives them time to review for the correct answers.
I report this as well, as it doesn't do anything but fvck me over AND the other people in my section, some people are really ****** stupid.

I dont see how it would screw you over. It is up to you to get your grade. No one else cheating should affect your grade. If you are referring to a curve being distorted because of them then I can sort of see your point. The only exception is that grades should be defined in the syllabus at the beginning of the semester. If you earn an A based on that criteria then you deserve an A. If the curve only brings you to a B and not an A then thats tough. You didn't earn the A anyway.

I've had quite a few classes where the lower 50% of class = fail regardless of grade, and the upper 50% = pass, top 10% being A etc, so if people cheated and didn't do their own work it can easily screw people over. I don't see how you say this doesn't effect me, it has CLEAR effects on my grade.

For instance say I make a 76 and the B breaks at 76 after curves or distribution at the end of the class, but say instead someone cheated and pushes that up.
So, regardless of how well I did I could wind up with a C because people cheated

As for the scenario with the first section helping the second, if the second section does better than the first overwhelmingly (which they were, because of cheating) and both sections are combined it automatically puts the first section towards the lower end of the curve which has a serious effect on my grade.

I've been in a number of classes where the averages on tests were 40s all it takes is someone cheating a 70 or so and it will seriously mess up the distribution.

See? Cheating fvcks other people over, far more than you give credit.

good points. In this situation I do see how cheating hurts someone other than the cheater and I agree with you that it would be wrong and a pretty ****** thing to do.

 

[aswedc]

The whole liberal arts college system is all sorts of stupid and inefficient. The three year degree is a much better idea.

So we make kids take a foreign culture class, and an economics class. You know what that results in? Graduates that can tell you about the Moscow Uprising of 1682 because they took a Russian history class but can't point out Iraq on a map. Graduates that can tell you what elasticity is but can't read a credit card bill.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who cheat their way through general education. As far as cheating in a major, well, as they say, you're just cheating yourself.

 

[nageov3t]

I cheated in high school... everything in high school seemed to be all about memorization. the people who did the best in hs were not necessarily the smartest people, but the people most skilled at memorizing what the teacher said and spitting it back out on command with no original thought or ideas of their own. that made me feel kind of justified when I cheated in high school.

pretty different story in college. nearly all of my classes were less about memorization and more about actually understanding concepts and knowing how to apply them to new things on your own. in high school, we'd spend a month discussing Hamlet, and then the teacher would assign a paper in which he wanted us to regurgitate everything he spent the past month drolling about; in college, we'd write a paper on Hamlet before even discussing it in class, and not delving into the material in class until everyone already had their own ideas and understandings of the material. I don't think I could have cheated if I wanted to.

 

[TecHNooB]

Good lord BoomerD is just full of wisdom. Must be the beard

I don't get how kids have the balls to cheat at the college level. Especially during an exam with all the TAs walking around. In physics this semester, all the exams were the same form so kids just looked at one another's scantron for answers. There was even someone's copy of the answers being passed around. Kids also discuss answers during exams while TAs aren't looking. During a chem exam, a kid I know actually had several pages worth of VSEPR diagrams right underneath his exam. Talk about ballsy. I just wish these suckers get nailed =/

I also know another kid (this kid really is an absolute joke) who's a CS major by name only. He gets others to do ALL his homework. He copies math homework straight off a pdf, gets someone to write all his programs, and had me do his physics homework. Now sometimes you might feel inclined to do work for others, especially if they're really cool or whatnot but trust me this is NOT the case. This guy is an absolute pansy bitch. I helped him do his physics hw just to be nice. Ended up doing his homework FOUR times. Each time, he would come over and ask for my "help", log onto his username, bring up his physics homework, and have me solve the problems he couldn't. The only ones this kid manages to solve are the multiple choice and the straight multiplication garbage. Obviously, I realized this kid knew absolutely nothing, so whenever he came by, I would quiz him by throwing several topics at him and asking him which he was going over. He would prompty pull out some lecture notes and hand it to me, as if that meant something. Unfortunately, he's friends with my roommate (who hates him as well but is afraid of rumors spreading wtf?), so I still helped him out. Kid even had the balls to say I shouldn't be trusted for physics homework to some other kids who I've helped simply cuz I didn't do one of his assignments entirely because I had other things to do. My roommate was there to hear this, and found it funny when the kid came crawling back the next day to ask for my help yet again. What a bitch.

Man up you punks. Do your goddamn homework and stop cheating on the exams. Your job might depend on some of the stuff that you're learning!!!

 

[Trevelyan]

Like most, I cheated occasionally in high school and a little in college, but honestly, its just a sign of laziness more than anything. I didn't feel bad cheating on homework, but I would've felt bad about cheating on an exam, so I never did.

While I don't consider myself evil for having cheated on occasion, I HAVE gotten in trouble for it in the past, and it sucked. So to me, its just shooting yourself in the foot. If you can't accept the grade you'll make without cheating, something is wrong.

 

[LeoDioxide]

Never cheated, never will. I see this as a Pot calling the Kettle black situation. Society has defined cheating as wrong. If I ever use society's definition of any other concept to judge another person's actions, that person may very well point out that I cheated and thus am a hypocrite. If I try to pull, "well I disagree with society on points A, B, and C" then my credibility flies out the window as I am making up arbitrary criteria to fit the situation.

 

[Rogodin2]

I graduated college without cheating. I actually had exams where it was impossible to cheat. I had to learn Russian, understand the monadology, the socratic method, and joycian paragraphs .

The OP is a slider-one of those who you can spot a mile away-make him pull pipe before the first cutting and he'd last 4 windrows *S*.

Kids are a ****** joke these days. But they do have some heart.

Rogo

 

[KarmaPolice]

Eh cheating really depends on what you are talking about.

Busy work...whatever its not serious and i dont see a huge problem with it

A major test...not so much.

Cheating is wrong either way you look at it.

 

[RedArmy]

Yeah, ummm, like maybe 10% (being generous) of kids in college want to actually LEARN the material so they can recall it later. If you don't believe me just walk into any lecture hall and look around to see what everyone is doing (this is saying that there's even a good amount of people even there). The majority of kids will be studying/cramming the night before or even the day of since they always find some way to rationalize it.

This is what leads to everyone cheating, going something like "oh well, this exam is only worth 10% of my grade so I can just look off of so and so's paper and study next time"...and then next time rolls around and they're at it again.

If somehow the material was actually interesting, I can see how people could get involved in it and have a genuine interest in learning it, but for the most part, in HS and beginning of college when you take such broad classes, there's just no will to learn it since it'll just be something different next year/semester.

Yeah I've cheated in HS, but more often then not I was cheated off of and I didn't care since I'm doing fine in my life and eventually karma catches up with everyone so fvck em'.