His summation is not wrong. Nor was it based upon a literal interpretation of the Bible.
First of all, calm your tits.
Second of all, I think you need to learn about Christianity from someone besides other angry Atheists. There are many interpretations of the Bible, you seem to think the literal is the be-all-end-all.
Perhaps, but reading from the New Testament:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter 2:6-8;&version=KJV
It would appear Lot was effectively suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
You seem to be taking things out of context again.
As I stated in my previous post, which you rudely said you wouldn't even read because you assumed you knew what I was going to say,
an action performed under duress does not mean you condone those actions, at least not in all situations. Not to mention that no raping actually occurred in the story. What would you have done to those men? If you would have killed them, does that mean you condone murder? Certainly not! That's ridiculous!
His summation is not wrong. Nor was it based upon a literal interpretation of the Bible.
First of all, calm your tits.
Second of all, I think you need to learn about Christianity from someone besides other angry Atheists. There are many interpretations of the Bible, you seem to think the literal is the be-all-end-all.
An atheist defending another atheists' summation of the Bible...color me shocked!
"Gods'" dealings with Moses and Pharaoh makes it clear that the "god" of the Bible has no qualms about violating "Free Will".
ThinClient, based on your posts I feel that I can strongly relate to you. I don't know how long you have been atheist, if you underwent a process of deconversion or not, but that's only my first point of inquiry. The second is the following. I am willing to bet that you have a deep sense of wonder and amazement about the universe and all its great mysteries. For me as an atheist, I find myself deeply intrigued by reality and i'd like to hear your thoughts on reality and the universe.
Assuming there is no multiverse, which there may or may not be, in this universe alone we seem to be a rare product compared to how much other stuff is out there. In other words, we seem to have hit the cosmic lottery, but...(snip)
do you ever wonder why it should even be possible, or how it could be possible for intelligent life to exist, no matter how rare it may be?
Wrong. I stated, quite clearly, that your premise was wrong and that's all I cared about refuting. If I destroy your foundational argument then it doesn't matter what you build on top of that argument.
If you're telling me that a loving father, a HOLY MAN, a RIGHTEOUS man is willing to offer up his daughter TO BE RAPED because he's scared of a crowd, fine, but don't expect others to believe him to be righteous for it and don't pretend that the god who he worships who allowed it to happen is somehow blameless or righteous either.
What an absolutely despicable father. What an absolutely atrocious thing to do. He, if anyone, deserves hell.
I'd have said no, go away, let the angels into my house, and closed the door. Whatever happens after that (angry violent crowd) is another issue and would be dealt with accordingly.
It is unbelievable that you people are justifying a father's condoning his daughter be raped and his OFFERING her up to them. Disgusting.
He doesn't have to, because there is no reason to "sacrifice free will to ensure perfect peace." You're arguing a false dilemma because you lack the wherewithal to conceive of the other rational alternative -- that free will can exist in a world where evil is impossible.So you'd argue that if God did exist and was loving and merciful, you'd want to sacrifice free will to ensure perfect peace?
And at what point did he violate free will? Sure he pulled a lot of magic tricks, but if he'd been directly violating free will the Hebrews wouldn't have suffered at all. Hell if he'd been violating free will to main peace, the Hebrews would never have been slaves in the first place.
I was raised in a charasmatic "non-demonimational" (read: protestant) church. I'm very well versed. You're making the assumption that I am not well versed in the bible. Interpretation is a cop-out way of saying "well I can make it say whatever I want it to say."
"Interpretation" is exactly how you turn an immoral and unethical action into a righteous action. It's one of the fundamental flaws of the book and the religion.
I consider it unfair and dishonest for people to point to a passage or story and claim its immoral and therefor the bible is BS.
I was raised in a charasmatic "non-demonimational" (read: protestant) church. I'm very well versed. You're making the assumption that I am not well versed in the bible. Interpretation is a cop-out way of saying "well I can make it say whatever I want it to say."
"Interpretation" is exactly how you turn an immoral and unethical action into a righteous action. It's one of the fundamental flaws of the book and the religion.
Do you blame the religion and the book? Can you honestly blame a religion or a book for anything? I firmly suspect that if all religion disappeared over night, that in short order the same kind of thinking and issues we have today would resurface and become prevalent in a nearly identical form.
The bible was written by people. The religion was created by people. Both of those things are interpreted by people. If you get rid of both, you still got the same people.
This is why I agree with challenging the way people think instead of challenging what they think.
I blame weak-minded people. I blame the control that some have over others using fear (like telling kids they'll go to hell if they don't believe). I blame those who prey on the gullible. HEY GUESS WHAT THERE'S A HEAVEN AND A HELL AND IF YOU COME TO MY CHURCH AND TITHE THEN YOU WON'T GO TO HELL BECAUSE THE AFTER LIFE IS REAL! I PROMISE!
The bible is just a book. The religion is simply a collection of dogma. It's just an idea or an ideal. Those can't be blamed. Like the "war on terror" the "war on religion" is pointless.
However, the war on those who perpetrate terrorism is a very real and a very worthy war. When you offer truth to people, just like discovering more evidence that is involved with a conclusion that you have already drawn based on old evidence, the new evidence must then be rolled into the fold with the rest of the old evidence and a new conclusion must be drawn.
The people who follow the religion will reject that new evidence because it does not fit the conclusion that they cling to and that's not rational or logical or reasonable. That's how you fight the "war on religion" if you want to call it that. You bring light to the darkness. You show that the holy men these people follow are not holy. You show that the moral precepts they worship aren't really moral. You listen to why they object, you listen to how and why they came to the conclusion they cling to and you provide additional evidence to them for them to reconsider. You hand them the tools and you hope that they use those tools to break themselves out of the blinders, the oppressive chains of religion. If they aren't willing to, well, you keep working at it if they're willing to continue to discuss it. Never give up hope in the betterment of your fellow man.
My target is not people who already believe that the bible is simply a book of allegory. My target is a person who believes that the bible is the infallible word of a living, loving god.
Those people are the ones who are going to defend the actions of Lot, to argue and justify his actions as if any real father wouldn't do everything he could to defend his baby girl.
THOSE people are the ones that can be broken by showing their biblical heroes for the evil they are and that is my goal.
Ok, I'll bite. What basic 'premise' in my post was 'wrong'?
He doesn't have to, because there is no reason to "sacrifice free will to ensure perfect peace." You're arguing a false dilemma because you lack the wherewithal to conceive of the other rational alternative -- that free will can exist in a world where evil is impossible.
Well I'll admit that's healthy enough, although like Moonbogg said I think you'd have better luck persuading them to alter the nature of their faith as opposed to eliminating it.
This is why I agree with challenging the way people think instead of challenging what they think.
(after all, NO ONE likes being berated for deeply-held beliefs)
I've already taken the time to type out the explanation in a previous post.
And actions or no actions, I understand what you're saying about acting under duress. However, no real father who is a holy, righteous man would offer his daughter to be raped. I don't believe that for a second. The kind of man who does that is a piece of shit and not righteous at all.
I was pointing out the hypocrisy of angels going to find even one holy family, finding them, watching them do something entirely evil, saying and doing nothing about it, but then god turning around and KILLING Lot's wife for doing something entirely innocuous as turning to look over her shoulder at the city they were leaving behind... her friends... her distant relatives... cousins or whatever... other people's families... CHILDREN for god's sake...
It seems as though Lot's wife is the only one in the story showing any real empathy for the suffering of her fellow human being and for that she is KILLED.
...oh, but please, rape my daughter instead of these angels.
...but then god turning around and KILLING Lot's wife for doing something entirely innocuous as turning to look over her shoulder at the city they were leaving behind... her friends... her distant relatives... cousins or whatever... other people's families... CHILDREN for god's sake...
I may be wrong here, but I think that a main central theme of the bible is faith. When it was written, terrible acts were common and not out of the ordinary, but when Lot's wife turned around, that was showing that her faith floundered for a moment. I think the thing here is that faith is the big deal, and she lost it enough to turn back, and she was killed for that reason.
This part of the story would be more important and should stand out more than the other parts, because faith is the big deal while women getting raped is just another daily thing to avoid if you can.