Your thoughts on God

[ThinClient]

I may be wrong here, but I think that a main central theme of the bible is faith. When it was written, terrible acts were common and not out of the ordinary, but when Lot's wife turned around, that was showing that her faith floundered for a moment. I think the thing here is that faith is the big deal, and she lost it enough to turn back, and she was killed for that reason.
This part of the story would be more important and should stand out more than the other parts, because faith is the big deal while women getting raped is just another daily thing to avoid if you can.

Faith is irrational.

Kind of like prayer, in a way. Prayer doesn't accomplish anything but make the person praying feel a little better. Well, you can do that with a shot of booze or a big fat bowl of pot or a little time meditating or going for a walk in the park or any great number of things that DOESN'T require belief in a mystical magical man in the sky and the rest of the lies that come attached to the bible.

Prayer isn't really a thing. Neither is faith. Both of them are nothing more than simple tools used to comfort the person using them, which I have no problem in. It's everything else that comes with it, including lying to one's self, that makes prayer and faith part of something incredibly profoundly dangerous.

 

[ThinClient]

And he claims HE is "well-read"? What you said is basic stuff, BASIC stuff and fundamental to understanding why his wife was killed.

The bible doesn't say that she was killed for any reason other than god told her not to. Anything else other than what's plainly written in the text is INFERENCE.

...interpretation.

You WANT it to be a lack of faith that got her killed because you have a vested interest in believing that your faith will save you. There's nothing in the text that even suggests that faith had anything to do with it, but you believe it like it's a fact (kind of like how you believe that evolution isn't true, because you have a vested interest in believing that the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago).

Once you realize that your faith isn't anything other than a figment of your imagination, the rest of the religious foundation begins to crumble and you realize that you've been lying to yourself for however long you've believed it and some people are simply too prideful or too cowardice to risk even beginning down that road of thought.

Again, it's just people making shit up to fit what they want to believe. It's being dishonest with yourself and with others.

 

[ThinClient]

And he claims HE is "well-read"?

This is coming from the guy who denied that the bible condones slavery, denied that it condones the subjugation of women, denies a ton of shit that's right there in the text plain as day, even in the words of Christ himself. :hmm:

 

[sandorski]

And at what point did he violate free will? Sure he pulled a lot of magic tricks, but if he'd been directly violating free will the Hebrews wouldn't have suffered at all. Hell if he'd been violating free will to maintain peace, the Hebrews would never have been slaves in the first place.

God hardening Pharaohs heart aka, making him change his mind

 

[moonbogg]

Faith is irrational.

Kind of like prayer, in a way. Prayer doesn't accomplish anything but make the person praying feel a little better. Well, you can do that with a shot of booze or a big fat bowl of pot or a little time meditating or going for a walk in the park or any great number of things that DOESN'T require belief in a mystical magical man in the sky and the rest of the lies that come attached to the bible.

Prayer isn't really a thing. Neither is faith. Both of them are nothing more than simple tools used to comfort the person using them, which I have no problem in. It's everything else that comes with it, including lying to one's self, that makes prayer and faith part of something incredibly profoundly dangerous.

I wasn't claiming faith was good or bad (I happen to think its good in certain flavors) but I was just trying to explain why the poor hag was turned into a salt stick. The point is that it wasn't just because she turned around and looked, as if she was killed simply for disobeying a totally arbitrary command.
I also don't think prayer or faith is dangerous. Again, I think people are dangerous, but I know what you mean and I agree with the nature of your concern here.
I am a creature of faith. It used to be religious faith, but now its a faith in humanity that we can become better than what we are. I have more faith today than I ever did before, its just built on a refined foundation, but my creature hasn't changed and I don't pretend to have done away with these very human habits or to pretend to have risen above them.

 

[ThinClient]

god hardening pharaohs heart aka, making him change his mind

OWNED.

lol. It's too easy.

 

[ThinClient]

I am a creature of faith. It used to be religious faith, but now its a faith in humanity that we can become better than what we are.

I would not tarnish such a noble venture with the inherently-flawed label of "faith." Here, I would use the noble term of "hope."

I have more faith today than I ever did before, its just built on a refined foundation, but my creature hasn't changed and I don't pretend to have done away with these very human habits or to pretend to have risen above them.

I have more hope than I know what to do with. It's bursting out of me. It gives me energy. It gives me motivation. It fuels me. Hope and a great passion for freedom for my fellow man from the evil oppression that is the three great monotheisms is what drives me. I can almost taste it.

...can you tell I was a youth pastor? :awe:

Those habits are hard to break, I know. Believe me, I know. You're doing a fine job, sir. :thumbsup:

 

[moonbogg]

I have a good friend who is a fundamentalist Christian. He is the kind who's beliefs branch off into conspiracy theories of all sorts and he does his best at times to convince me of all of it. Imagine if you could, the spectacle created in the night sky from the weapons of war we unleashed upon each other with regularity. This continued for some time, until something changed. Know what that thing was? It was me. I had to change, not him. My level of tolerance was too low and my will to change his mind was too great for there to be peace.
So I took a different approach. I dropped the combative attitude first and when he wanted to rant or make silly truth claims, like a friend, I listened. And in return, he talked and talked and talked. I accepted him for who he was and how he thought, and instead of saying, "you are wrong" I just said, "yeah? Well, maybe".
Today we are good friends and you know what? He is now good friends with an atheist whom he has nothing bad to say about. He's friends with an atheist who is patient with his position and respects him, and in return something amazing has been happening. He, through our conversations, has taken a keen interest in science, the universe and all the things that I find amazing about life and the universe. My position is no longer a threat to his own, and as a result he has embraced mine without having to disregard his.
Evolution was out of the question for him before. Now he finds it interesting and has questions about it. He has become interested because no one is using it as a weapon against him and the things he holds most dear.
This is a man who has changed and his mind is changing. But his change didn't begin until I changed. Think about these things.

 

[irishScott]

OWNED.

lol. It's too easy.

Fine. One example from the old testament, back when God was all fury and righteous vengeance. Congrats, you beat me. I challenge you to find one in the new testament though.

 

[Savatar]

Fine. One example from the old testament, back when God was all fury and righteous vengeance. Congrats, you beat me. I challenge you to find one in the new testament though.

Be careful... keep in mind that God is purportedly unchanging. He doesn't magically change from wrath/severity to mercy, these are both components of God's eternal character. Though I speculate he can feel emotions as we do, since we were made in His image (this may not exclusively apply physically, but to psyche and spirit - as we have the symbolism of Solomon's temple - the pillars of severity and mercy - and its interpretations in Jewish lore and Freemasonry), it mentioned in Genesis 8:

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

While this doesn't exactly say regret, and I don't think it was regret, it does implies emotion. As the saying goes, God loves the sinner but hates the sin - knowing that man makes mistakes and rejoicing in right conduct and with the truth. The threat of Gehenna is in the new testament as well, and several punishments to mankind both in this life and in the next. And also the promise of God's salvation and mercy through Jesus Christ.

Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, don't necessarily read that as a violation of free will - as we roll through lots of emotions in our hearts and don't act on them. A person can think unclean thoughts but this absolutely does not mean the person will act on them. It was a punishment for Pharaoh's actions, as God had previously warned - and He carried it out... but nobody could say that just because God plants an idea or thought in a person's mind that the person is forced to act on it! That notion is ridiculous! It's like saying you act on every thought you have, and as a person you know that you don't!

 

[irishScott]

I have a good friend who is a fundamentalist Christian. He is the kind who's beliefs branch off into conspiracy theories of all sorts and he does his best at times to convince me of all of it. Imagine if you could, the spectacle created in the night sky from the weapons of war we unleashed upon each other with regularity. This continued for some time, until something changed. Know what that thing was? It was me. I had to change, not him. My level of tolerance was too low and my will to change his mind was too great for there to be peace.
So I took a different approach. I dropped the combative attitude first and when he wanted to rant or make silly truth claims, like a friend, I listened. And in return, he talked and talked and talked. I accepted him for who he was and how he thought, and instead of saying, "you are wrong" I just said, "yeah? Well, maybe".
Today we are good friends and you know what? He is now good friends with an atheist whom he has nothing bad to say about. He's friends with an atheist who is patient with his position and respects him, and in return something amazing has been happening. He, through our conversations, has taken a keen interest in science, the universe and all the things that I find amazing about life and the universe. My position is no longer a threat to his own, and as a result he has embraced mine without having to disregard his.
Evolution was out of the question for him before. Now he finds it interesting and has questions about it. He has become interested because no one is using it as a weapon against him and the things he holds most dear.
This is a man who has changed and his mind is changing. But his change didn't begin until I changed. Think about these things.

To insert some relevant Taoism:

Verse 66 Stanza 2:

He who wishes to rule over the people
must speak as if below them.
He who wishes to lead the people
must walk as if behind them.
So the sage rules over the people
but he does not weigh them down.
He leads the people
but he does not block their way.

 

[ThinClient]

Fine. One example from the old testament, back when God was all fury and righteous vengeance. Congrats, you beat me. I challenge you to find one in the new testament though.

"God did X"

"NO HE DIDN'T, PROVE IT"

"okay" *proves it

"WELL OKAY HE DID IT ONCE, THAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING, PROVE IT AGAIN"



get the fuck out of here

 

[Savatar]

"God did X"

"NO HE DIDN'T, PROVE IT"

"okay" *proves it

"WELL OKAY HE DID IT ONCE, THAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING, PROVE IT AGAIN"



get the fuck out of here

Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, don't necessarily read that as a violation of free will - as we roll through lots of emotions in our hearts and don't act on them. A person can think unclean thoughts but this absolutely does not mean the person will act on them. It was a punishment for Pharaoh's actions, as God had previously warned - and He carried it out... but nobody could say that just because God plants an idea or thought in a person's mind that the person is forced to act on it! That notion is ridiculous! It's like saying you act on every thought you have, and as a person you know that you don't!

 

[irishScott]

Be careful... keep in mind that God is purportedly unchanging. He doesn't magically change from wrath/severity to mercy, these are both components of God's eternal character. Though I speculate he can feel emotions as we do, since we were made in His image (this may not exclusively apply physically, but to psyche and spirit - as we have the symbolism of Solomon's temple - the pillars of severity and mercy - and its interpretations in Jewish lore and Freemasonry), it mentioned in Genesis 8:

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

While this doesn't exactly say regret, and I don't think it was regret, it does implies emotion. As the saying goes, God loves the sinner but hates the sin - knowing that man makes mistakes and rejoicing in right conduct and with the truth. The threat of Gehenna is in the new testament as well, and several punishments to mankind both in this life and in the next. And also the promise of God's salvation and mercy through Jesus Christ.

Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, don't necessarily read that as a violation of free will - as we roll through lots of emotions in our hearts and don't act on them. A person can think unclean thoughts but this absolutely does not mean the person will act on them. It was a punishment for Pharaoh's actions, as God had previously warned - and He carried it out... but nobody could say that just because God plants an idea or thought in a person's mind that the person is forced to act on it! That notion is ridiculous! It's like saying you act on every thought you have, and as a person you know that you don't!

Unfortunately, Exodus 7 apparently states precisely that it's a violation of free will. Pharaoh's reaction is predetermined.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 7&version=NASB

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.

As for God being unchanging, my understanding was that when Jesus died for our sins it essentially made God's wrathful interventions/direct punishment of sin unnecessary.

 

[ThinClient]

I have a good friend who is a fundamentalist Christian. He is the kind who's beliefs branch off into conspiracy theories of all sorts and he does his best at times to convince me of all of it. Imagine if you could, the spectacle created in the night sky from the weapons of war we unleashed upon each other with regularity. This continued for some time, until something changed. Know what that thing was? It was me. I had to change, not him. My level of tolerance was too low and my will to change his mind was too great for there to be peace.

I am not interested in peace. I am only interested in what is true. Tolerance is condescending.

So I took a different approach. I dropped the combative attitude first and when he wanted to rant or make silly truth claims, like a friend, I listened. And in return, he talked and talked and talked. I accepted him for who he was and how he thought, and instead of saying, "you are wrong" I just said, "yeah? Well, maybe".

I cannot accept "well, maybe" when the answer is obviously "no."

Today we are good friends and you know what? He is now good friends with an atheist whom he has nothing bad to say about. He's friends with an atheist who is patient with his position and respects him, and in return something amazing has been happening. He, through our conversations, has taken a keen interest in science, the universe and all the things that I find amazing about life and the universe. My position is no longer a threat to his own, and as a result he has embraced mine without having to disregard his.

I'm glad he's finally coming to his senses, but that's not your problem if he doesn't. If he chooses to wallow in ignorance, that is his choice and he is only doing himself a disservice. The point of your message is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but there's a point at which you must draw the line that I'll talk about in the next paragraph.

Evolution was out of the question for him before. Now he finds it interesting and has questions about it. He has become interested because no one is using it as a weapon against him and the things he holds most dear.
This is a man who has changed and his mind is changing. But his change didn't begin until I changed. Think about these things.

No one will change if they are not willing to change in the first place, just like how you can't help someone who isn't first willing to help themselves. Never giving up on him is a noble venture and I'm glad you didn't and I'm glad that he's coming around. Some people require this level of care since they're so ridiculously stubborn and brainwashed. I'd venture to bet that his change didn't have anything to do with yours, though it's a nice sentiment.

 

[irishScott]

"God did X"

"NO HE DIDN'T, PROVE IT"

"okay" *proves it

"WELL OKAY HE DID IT ONCE, THAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING, PROVE IT AGAIN"



get the fuck out of here

You being a former youth pastor, I assume you know the extreme significance of the difference between the old and new testaments. It's a valid question. We're talking Christianity, and Christianity doesn't' exist without the new testament.

 

[ThinClient]

Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, don't necessarily read that as a violation of free will - as we roll through lots of emotions in our hearts and don't act on them. A person can think unclean thoughts but this absolutely does not mean the person will act on them. It was a punishment for Pharaoh's actions, as God had previously warned - and He carried it out... but nobody could say that just because God plants an idea or thought in a person's mind that the person is forced to act on it! That notion is ridiculous! It's like saying you act on every thought you have, and as a person you know that you don't!

God chose the decision that pharoah would enact. God chose to force pharoah into a decision regardless of what pharoah would have done on his own.

This repeated manipulation of free will is responsible for the deaths of all the first born in Egypt? Are you SHITTING me? God is willingly killing innocent children, causing the suffering of parents throughout the entire country for a decision that not only did they not have a say in but likely did not even know was occurring.

God is a disgustingly sick fuck.

 

[ThinClient]

You being a former youth pastor, I assume you know the extreme significance of the difference between the old and new testaments. It's a valid question. We're talking Christianity, and Christianity doesn't' exist without the new testament.

Christ fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant is nothing more than a gimmick. It's a petty, capricious "okay, now I'm going to change all the rules because I can do whatever the fuck I want because I'm god and you WILL comply or I will sentence you to eternity of damnation for living a life according to the nature that I created you with."

Derp.

 

[irishScott]

Christ fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant is nothing more than a gimmick. It's a petty, capricious "okay, now I'm going to change all the rules because I can do whatever the fuck I want because I'm god and you WILL comply or I will sentence you to eternity of damnation for living a life according to the nature that I created you with."

Derp.

So God, being all powerful and whatnot, lacks the power to change?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here (pun intended). I don't believe this stuff any more than you do, although I can respect some of the values it tries to pass down; despite the questionable delivery method.

Getting back to my original point, if God wanted to intervene to keep the peace he'd have to keep us as directly controlled slaves or else make drastic alterations to human nature. It's actually more "loving" and "merciful" of him to let us decide for ourselves, at least from a human perspective.

 

[ThinClient]

As for God being unchanging, my understanding was that when Jesus died for our sins it essentially made God's wrathful interventions/direct punishment of sin unnecessary.

Why didn't god send Jesus to die earlier then? Why did god even need Jesus to die on the cross to forgive our sins? Why didn't he just DO IT? Why did god choose to add insult to injury by sending Jesus to the middle of BFE where he would be tortured and murdered? God is a violent god that revels in the suffering of his creation, if anything.

Hitchens hits it on the head with this one. The fossil record puts man on earth somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000 years in our present form. Early man died a young death, usually of some sort of oral decay like teeth and gum disease. There was war between tribes, famine, rape, pillaging, countless made-up gods. When humans left the African plain to populate Europe and Asia, estimates put our numbers between 2,000 and 30,000 total. Less than 50,000 humans remaining on the planet due to our own self destruction.

During this time, heaven did nothing to stop the anarchy. Heaven did nothing to prevent the spread of disease, to stop rape and pillaging, didn't bother giving them at least a couple stone tablets to live by, heaven sits back with folded arms, watching the human race with indifference while we NEARLY annihilate ourselves.

Then, suddenly, NINETY EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS LATER, heaven goes WAAAAAAAAAIT, STOP!! Now, see, I must do something about this.



What does heaven do? He creates an "only begotten son," the description of which is deceptively pointless because god created the entire universe, he can create another son if he likes. God sends his "only begotten son" not to China where most of the population is literate and civilized, but to the asshole of the desert, to what is largely considered a cluster of nomadic people, largely illiterate, and then TORTURES and then MURDERS this creation of his because god apparently cannot contemplate a better way to redeem his creation from the very nature that he created them with.

What a JOKE.

This is something that all Christians MUST believe in order to adhere to their religion. This is what both fact combined with bible MUST be believed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD_WptjCMPI

 

[ThinClient]

So God, being all powerful and whatnot, lacks the power to change?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here (pun intended). I don't believe this stuff any more than you do, although I can respect some of the values it tries to pass down; despite the questionable delivery method.

Getting back to my original point, if God wanted to intervene to keep the peace he'd have to keep us as directly controlled slaves or else make drastic alterations to human nature. It's actually more "loving" and "merciful" of him to let us decide for ourselves, at least from a human perspective.

If god can change, that means the previous version of him was inadequate. There would be no reason to change. Admitting that god is any kind of inadequate undermines the foundation that god is perfect.

 

[irishScott]

If god can change, that means the previous version of him was inadequate. There would be no reason to change. Admitting that god is any kind of inadequate undermines the foundation that god is perfect.

Why's that? Perhaps God just felt like it. Perhaps he has perfect reasons we're too small to comprehend that he hasn't shared with us. Perhaps we're all just bits and bytes in some vast alien life simulation and what we know as "God" is really just a bunch of supremely bored admins fucking around.

Logic can never completely destroy faith, as faith is at best only partially based on logic; and vice-versa.

 

[ThinClient]

Why's that? Perhaps God just felt like it. Perhaps he has perfect reasons we're too small to comprehend that he hasn't shared with us. Perhaps we're all just bits and bytes in some vast alien life simulation and what we know as "God" is really just a bunch of supremely bored admins fucking around.

Logic can never completely destroy faith, as faith is at best only partially based on logic; and vice-versa.

This is just a cop-out to avoid reason. I've heard all of these empty arguments countless times. I've also already addressed the problem of faith.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How do you know?

Because I've been doing this a long, long time.

Some might define "free will" as being able to choose between good and evil.

That would be a transparently ad hoc definition.

You're invited to defend the idea that freedom to choose ham or jam for breakfast isn't really free will if you're unable to choose to stick your butterknife through someone's eye, though.

I'm ready when you are.

 

[irishScott]

This is just a cop-out to avoid reason. I've heard all of these empty arguments countless times. I've also already addressed the problem of faith.

Yes, it's a logical cop-out. Like it or not human reason is nowhere close to explaining everything adequately. And I'm not just talking about the big "God" questions. Humans are not Vulcans, and every day we act on assumptions, intuitions, trust, all things require faith.

Yes, even Atheists have faith, they just choose not to place it in a deity.