Yes, it's a logical cop-out. Like it or not human reason is nowhere close to explaining everything adequately. And I'm not just talking about the big "God" questions. Humans are not Vulcans, and every day we act on assumptions, intuitions, trust, all things require faith.
Yes, even Atheists have faith, they just choose not to place it in a deity.
Yes, it's a logical cop-out. Like it or not human reason is nowhere close to explaining everything adequately. And I'm not just talking about the big "God" questions. Humans are not Vulcans, and every day we act on assumptions, intuitions, trust, all things require faith.
Yes, even Atheists have faith, they just choose not to place it in a deity.
I am not interested in peace. I am only interested in what is true. Tolerance is condescending.
I'm glad he's finally coming to his senses, but that's not your problem if he doesn't. If he chooses to wallow in ignorance, that is his choice and he is only doing himself a disservice. The point of your message is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but there's a point at which you must draw the line that I'll talk about in the next paragraph.
To insert some relevant Taoism:
Verse 66 Stanza 2:
He who wishes to rule over the people
must speak as if below them.
He who wishes to lead the people
must walk as if behind them.
So the sage rules over the people
but he does not weigh them down.
He leads the people
but he does not block their way.
I think we disagree here, and that's ok.
He doesn't know his belief is mistaken. You know how it goes. But I think my post may have not been clear. I stopped trying to change him. I realized I don't have the power to do that, but I can be an example. When I said I accepted him for who he is and that I was tolerant to his ideas, that's exactly what I meant. As a result the friendship is better and as you mentioned, he wasn't going to change if he didn't want to. But if I had kept up my bad attitude, I could have served as a roadblock to that change. I decided to get out of the way and just be a friend.
EDIT: To clarify, he did tell me specifically that he has taken on new ideas and new interests as a result of my thoughts that I shared with him. So yes, I actually did play a part in his change. Hes still a fundamentalist Christian, hes just more tolerant now, even though I know you see no value in tolerance. I appreciate it from him anyway.
Yes, it's a logical cop-out. Like it or not human reason is nowhere close to explaining everything adequately. And I'm not just talking about the big "God" questions. Humans are not Vulcans, and every day we act on assumptions, intuitions, trust, all things require faith.
Yes, even Atheists have faith, they just choose not to place it in a deity.
Unfortunately, Exodus 7 apparently states precisely that it's a violation of free will. Pharaoh's reaction is predetermined.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 7&version=NASB
As for God being unchanging, my understanding was that when Jesus died for our sins it essentially made God's wrathful interventions/direct punishment of sin unnecessary.
2. (Exodus 7:3) God promises to harden Pharaohs heart.
And I will harden Pharaohs heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
a. I will harden Pharaohs heart: We remember that God will not harden Pharaohs heart against Pharaohs own desire. It is not as if Pharaoh wished to have a tender heart towards Israel but God would not allow him. God confirmed Pharaoh in his wicked inclination against Israel.
Exodus 7:3
I will harden Pharaoh's heart - I will permit his stubbornness and obstinacy still to remain, that I may have the greater opportunity to multiply my wonders in the land, that the Egyptians may know that I only am Jehovah, the self-existent God. See Clarke's note on Exo 4:21.
We are told everywhere in the Bible that God is sovereign, God is in control, and his purposes come to pass just as he wills. Yet we are also told everywhere in Scripture that we have a degree of freedom, we can make genuine moral choices, and we are accountable for our actions.
Thus God is said to be sovereign in all things, yet humans are morally culpable for the choices that they make.
...
The Exodus account makes it clear that Pharaoh is fully responsible for his actions, and God will judge him accordingly. In 9:34 we are plainly told that Pharaoh sinned again. He and his officials hardened their hearts. His was a voluntary action for which he is culpable.
Jesus dying does nothing to change God's character - the entire Jewish religion and ordained holidays is a hint and symbol of Christ's sacrifice, and it was God's plan from the very beginning of creation. Even in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned you have a hint at Christ's sacrifice as God clothed them from animal skin - this was, in essence, one of the first sacrifices as a symbol to cover their nakedness/shame. We are all still going to die, and many people will suffer, and there are punishments talked about by Christ himself as consequences of certain actions - not to mention the things mentioned in Revelations and attributed to John who had full knowledge of Christ and even perhaps some more understanding than any of us about the events. It would seem clear that there will be wrathful interventions and direct punishment of sin. However, though this body will pass away, there will be a future life to live - that's the promise of Christ for those who have accepted Him. We're not there yet, we're still in a world and state of sin, death, destruction and decay. Christ's sacrifice certainly doesn't mean any have free reign to sin, or that there will be no consequences for our actions anymore!
As for your reading of Exodus 7, as I said earlier I do not believe it necessarily entails purposefully violating Pharaoh's free will - though I do not doubt God works in the world in mysterious ways. Many scriptural commentators agree that God did not violate Pharaoh's free will, only magnified his own stubbornness. In an effort to understand this perspective, take a look at the following:
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=007
And http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/exo007.htm
and http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/04/20/difficult-bible-passages-exodus-73-4/
There are far less sources that I could find which imply that God was forcing Pharaoh to act. The act of 'hardening the heart' doesn't seem to entail action - God is simply showing here that the result of all of this is that this will come to pass and God will fulfill His promise of delivering the Israelites in spite of pharaoh's actions.
A fine example of the Ad hoc explanations necessary for theistic claims to be made consistent with their flawed Sources.
Can you explain?
Do I really need to? The Bible clearly states that God hardened Pharaohs heart. That is an act on Gods' part, directed at Pharaoh. Stating otherwise, regardless of the argument used, is an attempt to make the Bible say what it didn't say.
And what does hardening someone's heart mean, exactly? Does that mean forcing them to act in a certain manner, like some forbidden curse from Harry Potter? No, I don't think so. Hardening a heart is hardening what is already there, that is exactly what it says, it's not taking away someone's free will.
It seems just plain wrong to suggest otherwise.
And what does hardening someone's heart mean, exactly? Does that mean forcing them to act in a certain manner, like some forbidden curse from Harry Potter? No, I don't think so. Hardening a heart is hardening what is already there, that is exactly what it says, it's not taking away someone's free will.
It seems just plain wrong to suggest otherwise.
I think Ex 7:3 puts the argument to rest that God didn't violate his free-will, but simply allowed Pharaoh to remain stubborn.
A little digging shows the Kings of Egypt were worshipped as gods, so the likelihood of them giving in to the will of another god was close to zero, particularly when it came to being humiliated by not having control over their own slaves and allowing them to be forcibly freed.
This isn't rocket science. The account is %100 consistent with how they viewed themselves compared to other gods back then.
That particular Pharaoh showed signs of extreme arrogance. He stubbornness was his own "free choice".
WTF? Read that verse, very carefully.
Explain.
If you are using Magic to affect a person, how can it not be violating their Free Will? If Pharaoh was going to grant the requests Moses made to him, that was his Will at work. The Hardening was an act from "God" to make Pharaoh do what "God" wanted him to do. That by definition is a violation of Free Will. It can not be any other way. Either Pharaoh made the choice completely on his own or he didn't. That's what Free Will is.
Explain.
If you are using Magic to affect a person, how can it not be violating their Free Will?
A fine example of the Ad hoc explanations necessary for theistic claims to be made consistent with their flawed Sources.
If someone robs you at gun point and demands your car, is that violating your free will?
"and if you don't like it, we'll change the explanation to fit whatever makes you think that it makes sense"
What explanations were changed? And since when is it wrong to try to explain things in different ways to someone? That's a ... pretty normal thing.
The Bible is written in such a way that you can take a story and spin it a hundred ways to convey whatever message you want. You can "interpret" it a billion different ways to fit your agenda or your denomination. If someone argues against you, you can just change the meaning of the story to avoid their .... fuck it, why am I even trying, you're doing it now.
The Bible is written in such a way that you can take a story and spin it a hundred ways to convey whatever message you want. You can "interpret" it a billion different ways to fit your agenda or your denomination. If someone argues against you, you can just change the meaning of the story to avoid their .... fuck it, why am I even trying, you're doing it now.
I did, and I did a little historical digging to add some evidence to how they were. People who think they're already gods don't bow to the will of any god...particularly the God of a group of people whom are enslaved to them.
I cannot believe how this isn't clearly understood by you.
Secondly, you have no credibility. You think this is all made up anyway.
Listening to an atheistic critique of scripture is akin to reading a book on evolution written by a YEC.
It doesn't matter how they were. What matters here is what the Bible says. It clearly states that God thwarted Pharaohs Will.