Your thoughts on God

[Cerpin Taxt]

Jesus is the image of God, not separate from and is therefore also God, one of the Trinity.

Col 1:15, "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.…

Why should we believe Paul's crazy rambling?

 

[dphantom]

Don't know what you're saying. I would need some clarity.

However, the teaching of the Trinity is somehow always "eluded" to in the Bible...its never been cut-and-dried. So to believe in that, you'd have to answer some questions, like:

How can the father be "greater than the Son" if they are the same person? Or was Jesus praying to himself in Gethsemane...asking that this cup passes away not as he wants, but as he wants? Another question I'd ask is how can God know something Jesus doesn't know if they are the same person?

Every time I present these questions, I get no answer...just a "we don't yet understand and it hasn't been revealed to us". Well, if the Trinity is so fundamental to Christianity, then why don't you "understand it". How can you make a teaching that has yet to be understood, official Church doctrine? How can you come to know God, if you don't even understand the nature of him?

You likely have been told the Trinity is true before you even investigated it, and now you don't want to deny it because its akin to blasphemy, or being an "anti-Christ".

The Trinity simply isn't true, never has been, and never will be. It is simply a traditional teaching, and that's all it is...just like Christmas and Easter.

please see 633, 638 and 641.

you make a number of assumptions about people you do not know and then use those assumptions as a basis for your arguments. You should not do that. Your questions have been answered. There was much debate millenia ago and it is settled now. Of course, there are some Christian denominations who do reject the view of the Trinity, JW being one.

My denomination accepts the Trinity and consider it settled. I acknowledge that you reject Christianity, but will pray for your salvation regardless.

In the meantime, I am willing to continue to exchange views, but will only continue the discourse in a civilized non-confrontational manner.

 

[Retro Rob]

please see 633, 638 and 641.

you make a number of assumptions about people you do not know and then use those assumptions as a basis for your arguments. You should not do that. Your questions have been answered. There was much debate millenia ago and it is settled now. Of course, there are some Christian denominations who do reject the view of the Trinity, JW being one.

My denomination accepts the Trinity and consider it settled. I acknowledge that you reject Christianity, but will pray for your salvation regardless.

In the meantime, I am willing to continue to exchange views, but will only continue the discourse in a civilized non-confrontational manner.

I don't mean to be confrontational, and I don't think that I am. Just sayin', though...I reject this current version of Christianity.

A historian, whose name eludes me, made a point I'm not too soon to forget:

When considering atheism, religion, or more pointedly, Christianity is where atheism got its roots. And this isn't the "falling away from the faith" as many like to attribute it to, they just saw the lies and hypocrisy and pagan tradition wrapped up as Christian, as did I. There is something to be said about that.

No, I am no atheist, I accept Jesus as the Son of God and savior of mankind. I am not willing to celebrate and believe things I know aren't Christian, though.

Sure, the JW's reject the trinity, as do I. I've read their reasons behind it in many a magazine, and they've provided more scriptural reasons than you have. No religion that rejects the trinity says the bible "alludes" to their understanding as much as Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists say the bible "alludes" to the trinity. It either teaches it, or it doesn't...something as fundamental as that doesn't have so much "allusion" to it -- it would be crystal clear.

Don't pray for my salvation, pray that all can finally understand this 2,000 year-old "mysterious" trinity.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

"Alludes"


/OCD grammar Nazi, sorry.

 

[Retro Rob]

"Alludes"


/OCD grammar Nazi, sorry.

Actually, I appreciate that. I need to pay more attention....

 

[dphantom]

I don't mean to be confrontational, and I don't think that I am. Just sayin', though...I reject this current version of Christianity.

A historian, whose name eludes me, made a point I'm not too soon to forget:

When considering atheism, religion, or more pointedly, Christianity is where atheism got its roots. And this isn't the "falling away from the faith" as many like to attribute it to, they just saw the lies and hypocrisy and pagan tradition wrapped up as Christian, as did I. There is something to be said about that.

No, I am no atheist, I accept Jesus as the Son of God and savior of mankind. I am not willing to celebrate and believe things I know aren't Christian, though.

Sure, the JW's reject the trinity, as do I. I've read their reasons behind it in many a magazine, and they've provided more scriptural reasons than you have. No religion that rejects the trinity says the bible "alludes" to their understanding as much as Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists say the bible "alludes" to the trinity. It either teaches it, or it doesn't...something as fundamental as that doesn't have so much "allusion" to it -- it would be crystal clear.

Don't pray for my salvation, pray that all can finally understand this 2,000 year-old "mysterious" trinity.

Well, if it is quantity......

Old Testament
Genesis 1:1
Isaiah 7:14
Genesis 1:26
Isaiah 9:6
Genesis 11:7
Isaiah 43:11
Genesis 16:7-13
Isaiah 44:6
Genesis 18:1 and 2
Jeremiah 17:5
Deuteronomy 6:4
Jeremiah 23:6
Psalm 45:6
Micah 5:2
Psalm 110:1
Zechariah 12:10
Proverbs 8:23


New Testament
Matthew 1:23
Romans 10:13
Matthew 4:10
1 Corinthians 8:6
Matthew 9:2 and 3
1 Corinthians 10:4b
Matthew 9:8b
1 Corinthians 10:9
Matthew 28:18
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 5:19
Matthew 28:20b
2 Corinthians 12:19b
Mark 2:7
2 Corinthians 13:14
Luke 1:35
Ephesians 1:22 and 23
Luke 1:47
Ephesians 3:9
Luke 5:20 and 21
Ephesians 4:7 and 8
Luke 7:16
Ephesians 5:5
Luke 8:39
Philippians 2:6-8
John 1:1
Colossians 1:15-20
John 1:3
Colossians 2:2
John 1:10
Colossians 2:9
John 1:14a
2 Thessalonians 1:12
John 1:15
1 Timothy 3:16
John 1:18
1 Timothy 5:21
John 2:19
1 Timothy 6:14-16
John 2:24
2 Timothy 4:1
John 3:13
Titus 2:13
John 5:18b
Hebrews 1:2
John 6:33
Hebrews 1:8
John 6:38
Hebrews 1:10
John 6:46
Hebrews 2:16
John 6:62
Hebrews 4:8
John 6:64
Hebrews 7:3
John 8:24b
Hebrews 13:8
John 8:58b
1 Peter 1:11
John 10:18
2 Peter 1:1b
John 10:30
1 John 2:22
John 10:33
1 John 3:16
John 10:38
1 John 4:1-3
John 14:11
1 John 5:7 and 8
John 14:16 and 17
1 John 5:20
John 17:5
Jude 4
John 20:17
Revelation 1:8
John 20:28
Revelation 1:11
Acts 5:3 and 4
Revelation 1:13-15
Acts 7:45
Revelation 1:17
Acts 7:59
Revelation 3:14
Acts 20:28b
Revelation 21:6
Romans 9:5
Revelation 22:13
Romans 10:9

 

[dphantom]

I do not disagree Dec 25 originated in pagan rituals. No one knows the birth of Jesus. So a date was picked early on and Dec 25 was used to coopt the existing pagan ceremonies. It does not mean Chritianity grew out of paganism, rather it was a perhaps politically savvy way to destroy paganism and bring those to the Word of God. Same for Easter though we do know with reasonable certainty the rough date of the Crucifixion and it does happen to occur around pagan rites of spring and fertility.

The origin of Sunday says much about how and why Christianity used or co-opted pagan rituals.

There are two popular beliefs about the origin of the English word "Sunday."
bullet It is derived from the name of the Scandinavian sun Goddess Sunna (a.k.a. Sunne, Frau Sonne). 5,6

bullet

It is derived from "Sol," the Roman God of the Sun." Their phrase "Dies Solis" means "day of the Sun." The Christian saint Jerome (d. 420 CE) commented:

"If it is called the day of the sun by the pagans, we willingly accept this name, for on this day the Light of the world arose, on this day the Sun of Justice shone forth."

 

[Retro Rob]

I do not disagree Dec 25 originated in pagan rituals. No one knows the birth of Jesus. So a date was picked early on and Dec 25 was used to coopt the existing pagan ceremonies. It does not mean Chritianity grew out of paganism, rather it was a perhaps politically savvy way to destroy paganism and bring those to the Word of God.

Excuse me, but this is an extremely naïve way to look at it, and I am honestly quite surprised you wrote something as unbelievable as that.

I don't think you believe this at all...well, I am hoping you don't. You seem quote intelligent and I do appreciate your defense of the Bible, but the best way to destroy paganism is to expose it and make sure your followers don't endorse it...you do not do that by lying in bed with it.

They were becoming a party to lies by making obvious lies acceptable. I don't think that's something Jesus would have done.

Do you celebrate Christmas? If so, why if you know it isn't the birth of Christ?

There are two popular beliefs about the origin of the English word "Sunday."
bullet It is derived from the name of the Scandinavian sun Goddess Sunna (a.k.a. Sunne, Frau Sonne). 5,6

bullet

It is derived from "Sol," the Roman God of the Sun." Their phrase "Dies Solis" means "day of the Sun." The Christian saint Jerome (d. 420 CE) commented:

"If it is called the day of the sun by the pagans, we willingly accept this name, for on this day the Light of the world arose, on this day the Sun of Justice shone forth."

I haven't done my research on what you wrote, but Sunday coincides with God's day of "rest" from creation. Christians are not obligated to worship on Sunday's anyway, but they can and many choose different days.

 

[Retro Rob]

Well, if it is quantity......

Old Testament
Genesis 1:1
Isaiah 7:14
Genesis 1:26
Isaiah 9:6
Genesis 11:7
Isaiah 43:11
Genesis 16:7-13
Isaiah 44:6
Genesis 18:1 and 2
Jeremiah 17:5
Deuteronomy 6:4
Jeremiah 23:6
Psalm 45:6
Micah 5:2
Psalm 110:1
Zechariah 12:10
Proverbs 8:23


New Testament
Matthew 1:23
Romans 10:13
Matthew 4:10
1 Corinthians 8:6
Matthew 9:2 and 3
1 Corinthians 10:4b
Matthew 9:8b
1 Corinthians 10:9
Matthew 28:18
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 5:19
Matthew 28:20b
2 Corinthians 12:19b
Mark 2:7
2 Corinthians 13:14
Luke 1:35
Ephesians 1:22 and 23
Luke 1:47
Ephesians 3:9
Luke 5:20 and 21
Ephesians 4:7 and 8
Luke 7:16
Ephesians 5:5
Luke 8:39
Philippians 2:6-8
John 1:1
Colossians 1:15-20
John 1:3
Colossians 2:2
John 1:10
Colossians 2:9
John 1:14a
2 Thessalonians 1:12
John 1:15
1 Timothy 3:16
John 1:18
1 Timothy 5:21
John 2:19
1 Timothy 6:14-16
John 2:24
2 Timothy 4:1
John 3:13
Titus 2:13
John 5:18b
Hebrews 1:2
John 6:33
Hebrews 1:8
John 6:38
Hebrews 1:10
John 6:46
Hebrews 2:16
John 6:62
Hebrews 4:8
John 6:64
Hebrews 7:3
John 8:24b
Hebrews 13:8
John 8:58b
1 Peter 1:11
John 10:18
2 Peter 1:1b
John 10:30
1 John 2:22
John 10:33
1 John 3:16
John 10:38
1 John 4:1-3
John 14:11
1 John 5:7 and 8
John 14:16 and 17
1 John 5:20
John 17:5
Jude 4
John 20:17
Revelation 1:8
John 20:28
Revelation 1:11
Acts 5:3 and 4
Revelation 1:13-15
Acts 7:45
Revelation 1:17
Acts 7:59
Revelation 3:14
Acts 20:28b
Revelation 21:6
Romans 9:5
Revelation 22:13
Romans 10:9

This isn't discussing...you're just tossing a block of scriptures out with no commentary.

 

[Onceler]

Paul wasn't crazy he knew exactly what he was doing, he hijacked Christianity and made himself the head of the new religion. Every book in the bible that paul wrote he glorifies himself.
You need a good Astrologer to tell you when Jesus was born, not one of those new age fakes that just want money. After all to use you alls good book at you types that think that Astrology is evil read Genesis the part where it said that the stars in the sky are signs for man to live by. Not that I believe in Genesis because I don't.

 

[disappoint]

There are two scientists who are perfectly identical except for one factor: One's religious and one's an Atheist.

Now there are scientific studies out there that show prayer can lower blood pressure. So say the religious scientist prays daily and thus has noticeably lower blood pressure. He lives a few years longer than the Atheist and contributes more to science.

Define scientific studies. Double blind placebo controlled? Just want you to keep in mind certain "scientists", and I use that term loosely, have agendas and are either biased themselves or are paid by those who are and may seek to deceive.

A good starting point is to think of how inferior we'll be even 1000 years from now. There's been a lot of shitting on religion in this thread that would have gotten the posters executed 1000 years ago in many parts of the world. Nowadays we faceplam at such primitive beliefs.

I wonder if 1000 years from now some anthropologist will dig up this discussion from some ancient computer archive and faceplam at each and every one of us.

Each and every one of us? Oh really? We don't facepalm at the martyrs on the side of honesty, critical thinking, reason and non violence from the past though do we? We facepalm at what the self deluded, violent, evil religious folks did to them. All in the name of good, and not evil. Right? Right? *crickets*

Do you still think 1000 years from now they will facepalm every one of us? Or just a subset of us that should have known better and should have had a more open mind about ideas that differ from their own especially when they make more sense.

 

[MongGrel]

He's just some guy that never post's on any forum's, ya know.

I thought I saw him once, but that was some guy saying he was a Mellianial or some weird thing I'd never heard of, and was bitching about how unfair life was......

 

[MongGrel]

Well, if it is quantity......

Old Testament
Genesis 1:1
Isaiah 7:14
Genesis 1:26
Isaiah 9:6
Genesis 11:7
Isaiah 43:11
Genesis 16:7-13
Isaiah 44:6
Genesis 18:1 and 2
Jeremiah 17:5
Deuteronomy 6:4
Jeremiah 23:6
Psalm 45:6
Micah 5:2
Psalm 110:1
Zechariah 12:10
Proverbs 8:23


New Testament
Matthew 1:23
Romans 10:13
Matthew 4:10
1 Corinthians 8:6
Matthew 9:2 and 3
1 Corinthians 10:4b
Matthew 9:8b
1 Corinthians 10:9
Matthew 28:18
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 5:19
Matthew 28:20b
2 Corinthians 12:19b
Mark 2:7
2 Corinthians 13:14
Luke 1:35
Ephesians 1:22 and 23
Luke 1:47
Ephesians 3:9
Luke 5:20 and 21
Ephesians 4:7 and 8
Luke 7:16
Ephesians 5:5
Luke 8:39
Philippians 2:6-8
John 1:1
Colossians 1:15-20
John 1:3
Colossians 2:2
John 1:10
Colossians 2:9
John 1:14a
2 Thessalonians 1:12
John 1:15
1 Timothy 3:16
John 1:18
1 Timothy 5:21
John 2:19
1 Timothy 6:14-16
John 2:24
2 Timothy 4:1
John 3:13
Titus 2:13
John 5:18b
Hebrews 1:2
John 6:33
Hebrews 1:8
John 6:38
Hebrews 1:10
John 6:46
Hebrews 2:16
John 6:62
Hebrews 4:8
John 6:64
Hebrews 7:3
John 8:24b
Hebrews 13:8
John 8:58b
1 Peter 1:11
John 10:18
2 Peter 1:1b
John 10:30
1 John 2:22
John 10:33
1 John 3:16
John 10:38
1 John 4:1-3
John 14:11
1 John 5:7 and 8
John 14:16 and 17
1 John 5:20
John 17:5
Jude 4
John 20:17
Revelation 1:8
John 20:28
Revelation 1:11
Acts 5:3 and 4
Revelation 1:13-15
Acts 7:45
Revelation 1:17
Acts 7:59
Revelation 3:14
Acts 20:28b
Revelation 21:6
Romans 9:5
Revelation 22:13
Romans 10:9

I take it you're probably one of these people think the earth is 6000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur I assume.

 

[JEDIYoda]

when they make more sense.

define more sense....
according to who......

 

[disappoint]

define more sense....
according to who......

According to someone without any mental illness.

 

[justoh]

Paul wasn't crazy he knew exactly what he was doing, he hijacked Christianity and made himself the head of the new religion. Every book in the bible that paul wrote he glorifies himself.
You need a good Astrologer to tell you when Jesus was born, not one of those new age fakes that just want money. After all to use you alls good book at you types that think that Astrology is evil read Genesis the part where it said that the stars in the sky are signs for man to live by. Not that I believe in Genesis because I don't.

A good astrologer? What are you talking about? Sorry if I missed the joke.

 

[blankslate]

imho, it seems that the existence of a supreme being is something that just cannot be proven or discounted by our limited senses.

Also anyone who pointing to a religion saying that this is the true representation of the supreme being(s) seems to me to be engaging in an act that places limits on he/she/it that humans have no right to place.

I think that given typical humans desire to persuade others to think as they do it is very fortunate that the writers of the Constitution were wise enough to include the First Amendment, and that anyone who lives within a country that has a state religion is very unfortunate compared to a U.S. citizen in that regard.

As for my personal beliefs I am agnostic.

In my mind some atheists assert the non-existence of God(s), so vehemently that for some people "Atheism" in itself a "religion" that claims no religious beliefs, but is as doctrinally rigid as any fundamentalist interpretation religion.

Yet on the other hand the existence of a God or Gods is something that cannot be proven by any method that we know of.

You could say that it is fence sitting I suppose but the reality is humans just aren't in any position to prove something that relies on faith.

As for religions specifically, anyone can with enough time find examples of religious text used to justify something (or things) that most people in a modern society regard as wrong or immoral as well as find things that would be considered beautiful or wise.

Given what our observations (which can be tested for veracity) are telling us about the universe and our place in it; I think that we should collectively realize that we shouldn't worship the creeds so much that we forget the message.

The italicized portion above is I think very important since humans' limited senses do not enable us to find that "proof" that God(s) exist without applying faith.

It seems like one of the main messages (if there are any). given the size of the universe that we can observe and our tiny infinitesimal space that we occupy in it, is that humility is a better virtue than pride (which itself inclines one to find in others, and overlook in oneself )

Just my two cents.

....

 

[dphantom]

I take it you're probably one of these people think the earth is 6000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur I assume.

no, that just makes you an ass.

 

[justoh]

This phantom guy rejected the proposition that Christianity or some aspects of it (didn't read this stupid thread very well) grew out of paganism, before explaining how it was used as a political tool "instead."

What does it mean for something to grow out of something else? Surely the originally quoted dude meant it metaphorically. Why couldn't the utility of the pagan dates or whatever be exactly what was meant by the grew out of it remark? Or plausibly what was meant? Almost anything is compatible.

Must be a christian.