Your thoughts on God

[ThinClient]

I think all the worst things you blame on religion- closes mindedness, violence, corruption, ignorance- are not the fault of religion. They are simply the worst parts of the animal we call a human being. All of those things just happened to be expressed in and out of religion because we make religion an important part of our lives.

Did you miss the part where religion BREEDS this sort of thing? Religion encourages it, demands it, commands it, while claiming to be morally and ethically superior.

I mean, Moonies and the Koresh compound followers were following a lesser evil when compared to the Biblical god and we all know they're monsters.

When the Son of Sam stands in front of the judge and tells him that god or satan or whatever is talking through a dog and telling him to kill people, the judge doesn't go "Oh, GOD told you to? Well hell, we'll just let you free right now since you were commanded by the almighty!"

Of course he was convicted. No reasonable, logical, thinking person can accept such irrational claims.

 

[ThinClient]

Yeah, let's keep this crap in P&N. The purpose of this subforum wasn't so you could show your festering. Since religious threads devolve into this kind of crap let's toss them under the bus and back to P&N so they can blight the land somewhere, but not here.

The purpose of my posts isn't to simply share my disdain. It's to help others. Sincerely, I feel conviction to help others reason themselves out of their mental chains of bondage, to free them from the oppression and fear mongering that religion uses to prey on its members.

I'm not just posting to be an asshole. I really do have a heart for those lost in religion. I want to see them succeed. I want to see them stop lying to themselves and others. I want to see them educate themselves and become more rational members of society.

 

[Agent11]

Religion does help people as well though. My mother was deeply religious her entire life and it gave her more comfort than I could as she died.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Why would a scientific mind accept "god did it through evolution" when there's no evidence that god did anything through any method?

For themselves and their personal beliefs? Most wouldn't accept it. No proof, no data.

But what you accept personally and what you will let someone else say without smugly correcting them is two different things.

Heck I not even advocating tolerance of a middle ground. Just practicality and ambivalence. Get most people on board with evolution then let the divine part die out over time.

Here are the numbers today:

Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1571127

Even though most evolution advocates treat the middle ground with disdain, more Americans believe it than the atheist version. Oh and because evolution advocates have got the whole thing branded as anti-God, the group that doesn't believe in any kind of evolution is as big as the group that does, and their numbers are growing over time.

Not compromising really works.....

 

[ThinClient]

Religion does help people as well though. My mother was deeply religious her entire life and it gave her more comfort than I could as she died.

You can get that same comfort without religion. You can get that same comfort without subscribing to the morally and ethically corrupt Christianity, the blatantly false claim that god is real, blah blah blah.

 

[sandorski]

The whole thing? It couldn't be. But the whole thing doesn't have to be endorsed by all scientists, just not rejected with a passion. Say a "yeah yeah that is possible maybe." Move on.

Work it right and eventually only the scientific part ends up in the textbook and overall you have less ignorant people.

As you pointed out in your post, if you stick to "they are wrong and I am right" you are no better than the Christian evangelists. At the end of the day what matters is net positive benefit.

What would you rather- people having a kindergarten appreciation of evolution but still accepting it or people teaching their kids the people walked with the dinosaurs in 2053?

Why do this? There's no reason to compromise.

 

[nightspydk]

God for me is the representation of the opposite. Like good and evil god cannot exist without the devil. That concept boxes people in imo. Either your good or bad, the axis of evil, with or against. It creates hate and division and it will never be a part of the world I want of understanding and peace.

 

[ThinClient]

Not compromising really works.....

Well, once humanity matures enough to shrug off the bondage of religion, we won't have to compromise between a reasonable, rational thought process and some dangerous bronze age myth that's full of lies and immorality.

 

[ThinClient]

Why do this? There's no reason to compromise.

"Only the scientific part ends up in text books" isn't correct, either. Certain states are foaming at the mouth about putting creationism into the science classroom instead of in the philosophy class where it belongs. If religion didn't preach world domination, maybe that statement would be true, but that's like saying that an aggressive staph infection will eventually go away if we ignore it. That kind of thinking is, quite literally, deadly.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I'm a fence-sitting agnostic so I accept the possibility of some kind of creator for mankind or even this particular universe.

But I've yet to see anything beyond faith to support the truth of any particular religion, and I certainly would not bow to a creator that torments you eternally for eating bacon. Mmmm, bacon

I'm with Dave. I kind of went along with the Christianity idea until I was in my mid-20's, when I took some world history courses, and started looking at different religions of the world. When you start to realize that roughly 80% of the population of the Earth are non-Christian, and think about all the billions and billions of people who have been on this earth over the past thousands of years who not only were not Christian, but had never even heard of Christianity, then the whole notion of heaven and hell and a Christian God becomes quite absurd. I realize that many of these other religions have their own version of God....but it isn't the same god, it's a different, made up God. It's pretty clear to me now that they're all made up gods...and our Christian god is no different....no more real than the Easter bunny or Santa or Zeus or Thor.

I'm on the fence with Dave and railer as an agnostic.

As suggested above, it's daunting to consider all the unique descriptions of the supernatural offered up by the world's organized religions. The number ob beliefs becomes even more mind boggling when you realize (through discussions like the ones here) that the individual believers ascribe to personal variants of their religions' central tenets (or have their own personal religions!). Just based on the sheer number of asserted possibilities, the likelihood that any one possibility is correct has to be extremely small. I'm thinking your odds of having a winning lottery ticket are better than your odds of picking the right belief.

From my point of view, those who are convinced beyond all doubt that there is not (or can not be) anything supernatural (i.e. beyond/outside the bounds of science and the universe) have also leapt to a conclusion that is impossible to prove.

In fact, I suggest that it is this absolute certainty of being right about held beliefs (either way) that can lead to acts we might describe as evil. Jacob Bronowski says it much better:

“It's said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That's false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance, it was done by dogma, it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge of error and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken."

I owe it as a scientist to my friend Leo Szilard, I owe it as a human being to the many members of my family who died here, to stand here as a survivor and a witness. We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people.”

IMHO agnostic is the only way to go.

 

[nightspydk]

...and believing in nothing is hard. You do not believe in the after-birth also you do not believe in hells fire, you believe in the here and now. So you cannot excuse your actions with some higher power, no you have to accept that what you do have consequenses and it is of your doing not somebody elses. What could be harder and that is what we have to face as adults and that cannot be explained except for this was how we were to act on this given time as human beings.
But lets face it though imagine the absurdity of not having to face the consequences.

//rant off

What kind of people would we become?

 

[Retro Rob]

For themselves and their personal beliefs? Most wouldn't accept it. No proof, no data.

But what you accept personally and what you will let someone else say without smugly correcting them is two different things.

Heck I not even advocating tolerance of a middle ground. Just practicality and ambivalence. Get most people on board with evolution then let the divine part die out over time.

Here are the numbers today:



http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1571127

Even though most evolution advocates treat the middle ground with disdain, more Americans believe it than the atheist version. Oh and because evolution advocates have got the whole thing branded as anti-God, the group that doesn't believe in any kind of evolution is as big as the group that does, and their numbers are growing over time.

Not compromising really works.....

Great post, and I was going to post those stats but for other reasons, but I think you nailed it.

Yeah, evolutionists say "there are mountains of evidence supporting this theory" and I now see that it's not the "evidence" that is being ignored...it's the smug "holier than thou" attitude that seems to dominate the atheist community.

People like thinclient, based on his behavior in this thread (and many others) is probably the main reason people rather keep God in it. After all, joining that brand of militant atheism is like throwing a baby into shark-infested waters.

I recall one of the new atheists being quoted as saying: "we must ridicule" people who have a belief in God.

Well, get comfy...you're going to be in the minority for quote a while until you change the tone of your message.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The purpose of my posts isn't to simply share my disdain. It's to help others. Sincerely, I feel conviction to help others reason themselves out of their mental chains of bondage, to free them from the oppression and fear mongering that religion uses to prey on its members.

I'm not just posting to be an asshole. I really do have a heart for those lost in religion. I want to see them succeed. I want to see them stop lying to themselves and others. I want to see them educate themselves and become more rational members of society.

What you want is for people to do is think like you. The "white mans burden". There are happy and rational people who are religious who do good things. Teachers, plumbers, and yes even scientists, and you proselytize like this? You "free" them this way by letting them know they don't fit your personal metric?

One can construct nice sentences and use the best grammar and still be completely wrong. You speak of judgement by the religious and make blanket statements in judgement. Maybe I should get religion if this is the "logical" alternative.

No, once again it has been demonstrated that this is not a place where religion can be discussed thoughtfully, and those were always rare, but rather a pig with lipstick.

If someone attacked blacks or gays with such blanket statements they'd be gone in a minute but ignorance is far reaching and not just with Pat Robertson.

I would have avoided this thread but religion bashing has become the dominant topic in this subforum, the one that draws.

It had promise but some genius threw open the doors and asked for this. So be it.

 

[brandonb]

The purpose of my posts isn't to simply share my disdain. It's to help others. Sincerely, I feel conviction to help others reason themselves out of their mental chains of bondage, to free them from the oppression and fear mongering that religion uses to prey on its members.

I'm not just posting to be an asshole. I really do have a heart for those lost in religion. I want to see them succeed. I want to see them stop lying to themselves and others. I want to see them educate themselves and become more rational members of society.

I was Atheist until I was 27 years old. The last 10 years I've been Catholic. Nothing you say will change anything. In fact, it only reinforces my faith. All I see in your response is selfishness. So you can win the battle against the religious. I understand. I was Atheist and have done the same thing as you for 10 years before I converted. But that selfishness is what makes me avoid anything you say.

If you took a different approach, you might get further. Just stop the belittling. Reminds me of this gal at my current job. She got promoted to a manager somehow (I'm also in management). But every meeting she has to remind me about how she worked for Wells Fargo. Like she is up on top her horse, talking down to me like I'm an imbicile. She sends me an email about "That is not the proper way to do things..." Um. Don't tell me how to do my job. I've been more successful in my years here (and in 6 years, I've tripled my salary), and make 3x as much as she does. I must be doing something right.

That said. Since I've converted, the world makes much more sense to me. Even if there is no God, I don't care. I feel more comfortable living. I am way more happy, and have placed burdens on God (and there might not be one) but it takes that load off my shoulders anyhow. I'm more free today than I was 10 years ago. My atheism was making me selfish because I needed to win, and I wasn't happy with myself because of it. Then when my friend dragged me to the priest, and I talked. I seen why I was selfish and unhappy with myself. I dropped it. And then I changed, for the better. There was truth behind the words. Maybe it was dumb luck or coincidence. I don't care. So I find your response almost silly. As I look at atheism in the same way you do for the religious. Just change "religion" in your post to "atheism" and we could say the same thing. That's the beauty of the world. You can be on the other side of the fence and have similar thoughts and opinions about the other side. Maybe you found your comfort in atheism, I found comfort in religion. To each their own.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Why do this? There's no reason to compromise.

Because the statistics show that the only growth in those who believe in evolution without divine intervention comes from those who believed in the middle ground. The middle ground is like training wheels to facilitate a more positive perception towards evolution, which eventually might lead to people looking into it further themselves.

Unless you prefer to be right but a minority, and the majority is people who believed that the world is 10000 years old. Oh and due to your stubbornness that majority is anti-science which then makes it harder to fund scientific research with public money.

 

[Paul98]

I was Atheist until I was 27 years old. The last 10 years I've been Catholic. Nothing you say will change anything. In fact, it only reinforces my faith. All I see in your response is selfishness. So you can win the battle against the religious. I understand. I was Atheist and have done the same thing as you for 10 years before I converted. But that selfishness is what makes me avoid anything you say.

If you took a different approach, you might get further. Just stop the belittling. Reminds me of this gal at my current job. She got promoted to a manager somehow (I'm also in management). But every meeting she has to remind me about how she worked for Wells Fargo. Like she is up on top her horse, talking down to me like I'm an imbicile. She sends me an email about "That is not the proper way to do things..." Um. Don't tell me how to do my job. I've been more successful in my years here (and in 6 years, I've tripled my salary), and make 3x as much as she does. I must be doing something right.

That said. Since I've converted, the world makes much more sense to me. Even if there is no God, I don't care. I feel more comfortable living. I am way more happy, and have placed burdens on God (and there might not be one) but it takes that load off my shoulders anyhow. I'm more free today than I was 10 years ago. My atheism was making me selfish because I needed to win, and I wasn't happy with myself because of it. Then when my friend dragged me to the priest, and I talked. I seen why I was selfish and unhappy with myself. I dropped it. And then I changed, for the better. There was truth behind the words. Maybe it was dumb luck or coincidence. I don't care. So I find your response almost silly. As I look at atheism in the same way you do for the religious. Just change "religion" in your post to "atheism" and we could say the same thing. That's the beauty of the world. You can be on the other side of the fence and have similar thoughts and opinions about the other side. Maybe you found your comfort in atheism, I found comfort in religion. To each their own.

I find these posts very telling about you and your thought process on life and how you feel about things.

You like that god and your religion makes you feel good, you are able to ignore that there is no evidence and any inconsistencies. No amount of evidence will change your mind since your "belief" has nothing to do with evidence it just makes you feel good to think what you think. This is no problem as long as you know it. Problems come when your conscious mind tries to rationalize your subconscious irrational beliefs. The only way you would change your beliefs is if you find something else that makes you feel good in place of it.

Most people aren't atheists because it makes them feel good but because they can't make them self believe something that they don't believe and has no evidence.

 

[Retro Rob]

I find these posts very telling about you and your thought process on life and how you feel about things.

You like that god and your religion makes you feel good, you are able to ignore that there is no evidence and any inconsistencies. No amount of evidence will change your mind since your "belief" has nothing to do with evidence it just makes you feel good to think what you think. This is no problem as long as you know it. Problems come when your conscious mind tries to rationalize your subconscious irrational beliefs. The only way you would change your beliefs is if you find something else that makes you feel good in place of it.

Most people aren't atheists because it makes them feel good but because they can't make them self believe something that they don't believe and has no evidence.

I don't understand....why doesn't it matter to you why he choose to unlock the chains of atheism?

He was 27, so he likely was well informed and being a former atheist, he saw no value in being one anymore.

Again, why does it matter to YOU?

 

[Paul98]

I don't understand....why doesn't it matter to you why he choose to unlock the chains of atheism?

He was 27, so he likely was well informed and being a former atheist, he saw no value in being one anymore.

Again, why does it matter to YOU?

Why does it matter to YOU?

Edit: You really need to stop just asking questions and actually look for answers in reality.

Obviously the reason it matters why he "believes" in god and religion matters because it tells about his thinking and frame of mind. If he believed in god because he had a vision or because he saw evidence,... it is a very different frame of mind.

 

[sandorski]

Because the statistics show that the only growth in those who believe in evolution without divine intervention comes from those who believed in the middle ground. The middle ground is like training wheels to facilitate a more positive perception towards evolution, which eventually might lead to people looking into it further themselves.

Unless you prefer to be right but a minority, and the majority is people who believed that the world is 10000 years old. Oh and due to your stubbornness that majority is anti-science which then makes it harder to fund scientific research with public money.

Science isn't Politics or a Popularity contest. It is a process to discover usable knowledge about the natural universe. If someone's Religious texts/views don't match up to the same, that is that persons problem.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why does it matter to YOU?

It doesn't, hence, why I didn't respond to his post. It's refreshing to see people think for themselves from both ends of the spectrum -- some leave religion, some leave atheism. If anything, this demonstrates that we have a variety of opinions on the matter, and it also shows how far removed we are from knowing anything about our ultimate origins, no matter how many atheists think science has all the answers.

Being able to think critically means critically examining even non-belief and finding out why people disbelieve. Without a doubt, you'd find plenty irrationality in the rejection of God if you critically examine it.

 

[Retro Rob]

Science isn't Politics or a Popularity contest. It is a process to discover usable knowledge about the natural universe. If someone's Religious texts/views don't match up to the same, that is that persons problem.

Well, the way I read his comment, he's saying if science simply concedes that they don't know what started evolution (hence, God may have done it), then you wouldn't get such a negative response.

After all, can you positively rule OUT a creator, scientifically speaking?

 

[sandorski]

Well, the way I read his comment, he's saying if science simply concedes that they don't know what started evolution (hence, God may have done it), then you wouldn't get such a negative response.

After all, can you positively rule OUT a creator, scientifically speaking?

Such a concession is nonsensical and unscientific.

 

[brandonb]

Most people aren't atheists because it makes them feel good but because they can't make them self believe something that they don't believe and has no evidence.

I believe you understand. Maybe you don't quite know it yet.

You see. I gained my evidence. That's what converted me. I was made aware I was a selfish being, and it was causing me great unhappiness. I was taught to see it for what it was, and how to fix it. In the process of doing so, I realized there was evidence of God there. Maybe not the God you see in the bible, or the God you hear about in church. As man changes the word of God for his own selfish purposes and for their own gain. But I think I seen God for what he (it) was. Just briefly. There it was, a glimmer. I accepted the evidence instead of dismissing it like I could have. It caused me to explore it. The more I explored it, the more I could see it. It's really strange. It's almost like a clarity of the mind. Can I measure it on a ruler? No Can I stick it in a test tube and run a test on it? No. It's entirely in my mind, but I can feel its presence. Something I didn't find until I was seeking for it, and I don't necessarily believe it was all internal. The catholic priest I visited helped me find it.

That said, do I believe others have found this as well? Yes. Do I believe other people in other religions have experienced the same thing? Absolutely. I believe all religions have a basis in what I have experienced. I believe all religions have seen what I've seen, as they all mention the same type of state of mind in their books. Buddhists called it Nirvana. Christians call it the Holy Spirit.

Now maybe you can't see it. Maybe you don't believe it. Maybe you have experienced it. It doesn't matter. I gained the evidence I needed by experiencing it. Did God place this in me? I don't know. Is it a state of mind we can all feel if we seek? More than likely. If you experienced it, how do you believe it if you can't measure it in a science lab? You believe it because you have experienced it in the mind. Once I explored that, and what it meant, atheism was no longer relevant. The science lab became irrelevant.

Cheers. Have a nice day. I've spent too much time at work typing. So I'll check back tomorrow.

 

[Retro Rob]

Such a concession is nonsensical and unscientific.

How? All you'd be acknowledging is that you don't know how we got here, so you're actually taking the open-minded route of humility.

Call it god, Zeus, the FSM, whatever you want. Heck, science even acknowledges that we didn't originate here on earth -- we likely had a source from space.

Your not conceding the scientific model of investigating our origins -- you're simply saying "I don't know, so it could be anything at this point".

Stop being so stubborn.

 

[Paul98]

I believe you understand. Maybe you don't quite know it yet.

You see. I gained my evidence. That's what converted me. I was made aware I was a selfish being, and it was causing me great unhappiness. I was taught to see it for what it was, and how to fix it. In the process of doing so, I realized there was evidence of God there. Maybe not the God you see in the bible, or the God you hear about in church. As man changes the word of God for his own selfish purposes and for their own gain. But I think I seen God for what he (it) was. Just briefly. There it was, a glimmer. I accepted the evidence instead of dismissing it like I could have. It caused me to explore it. The more I explored it, the more I could see it. It's really strange. It's almost like a clarity of the mind. Can I measure it on a ruler? No Can I stick it in a test tube and run a test on it? No. It's entirely in my mind, but I can feel its presence. Something I didn't find until I was seeking for it, and I don't necessarily believe it was all internal. The catholic priest I visited helped me find it.

That said, do I believe others have found this as well? Yes. Do I believe other people in other religions have experienced the same thing? Absolutely. I believe all religions have a basis in what I have experienced. I believe all religions have seen what I've seen, as they all mention the same type of state of mind in their books. Buddhists called it Nirvana. Christians call it the Holy Spirit.

Now maybe you can't see it. Maybe you don't believe it. Maybe you have experienced it. It doesn't matter. I gained the evidence I needed by experiencing it. Did God place this in me? I don't know. Is it a state of mind we can all feel if we seek? More than likely. If you experienced it, how do you believe it if you can't measure it in a science lab? You believe it because you have experienced it in the mind. Once I explored that, and what it meant, atheism was no longer relevant. The science lab became irrelevant.

Cheers. Have a nice day. I've spent too much time at work typing. So I'll check back tomorrow.

What "evidence" did you gain, this is the problem I was talking about. It's your conscious mind trying to support your subconscious beliefs. This isn't evidence, it isn't based in reality. It is you having an experience and belief that makes you feel good. You then try to explain it consciously, as shown in experiments we can activate the part in the brain that gives people religious experiences. And what happens when it does, they have a "religious experience".

Why did you chose the religion you did? Why do you think yours is correct and others are not?