Ze First Debate

Page 35 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,034
2,652
136
This is definitely where we disagree. I have discussed this with people before and they come to same conclusion you have..thar supply is the problem.

While supply is a contributing factor you have to look at demand. If you are the average couple your average combined salary is $120k. That means the max you can afford is roughly $350k assuming you have no other big expenses. Throw in childcare at 1k per kid per month, two car notes with insurance for $750 each and suddenly all you can afford now is $250,000. I did not include food, income taxes and some meager entertainment. Then there is 12% combined 401k contributions and dont forget wild healthcare premiums at the family level. Let's say now $200,000 max with 3% down for FHA mortgage.

That family has to compete with a cash flow positive LLC with a portfolio of properties and money to not only meet the ask and even overbid if necessary and close today with a suitcase of 100% cash in 24 hours.

Once rented out to that family...for a profit ..he gets to shelter some of that income and go out the next day and gobble up.more homes. If you can't pay his rent...tough...go sleep in your car.

How is a family supposed to compete with that kind of financial firepower?

We can build homes but we also need to restrict access to them to actual owner occupiers for a period of 10 years (at least).

No flippers, no investors. Home owners. If they HAVE to sell for any reason it must be to another family who also intends to complete the initial 10 year term.

Unfortunately this does not happen. Instead it's a free for all and the biggest wallet always win and the family sleeps in the car for now or is stuck in an expensive apartment.
You can disagree all you want, but the facts don't support it. Specially since buying, selling, investing in real estate has been going on for decades.. nothing has changed in that respect,. which puts your argument flat on it's face. Do you even understand why the housing market exploded after the pandemic which caused houses prices to sky rocket? Low interest rates, combined with lack of supply. We are currenlty short 6 million single family houses to meet demand currently across this country. We don't have enough skilled workers as it is to keep up with demand, so that number increases every year. We haven't been able to keep up with demand for over a decade. When interest rates dropped to the lowest they have every been, it amplfied that supply problem because people who couldn't afford a house, where able to, which created more competitition, driving up prices. But this also highlights the other issue, and that is income/wages, as you so eligantly demonstrated in your example, not realizing it. Wages hasn't kept up with inflation since Reagan, for the most part wages have been stagnet for decades.
 
Last edited:

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,575
2,248
126
^ Real estate investor.

Remove the profit motive and tax incentives from real estate and we will have a housing glut we have not seen since the foreclosure crisis of 2009 to 2012.

It starts with outlawing AirBNB.
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,005
8,275
136
^ Real estate investor.

Remove the profit motive and tax incentives from real estate and we will have a housing glut we have not seen since the foreclosure crisis of 2009 to 2012.

It starts with outlawing AirBNB.
People will propose to do anything that protects incumbent homeowners' property values without actually fixing the problem.
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,005
8,275
136
Disallow corporate ownership of single family homes.
Why? Why shouldn't someone be able to rent from Big Landlord for a single family home? Big Landlord bad, small landlord good? Give me a break. Small landlords can be just as shitty, if not more shitty than a big landlord that might actually have lawyers on staff so they follow fair housing laws.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,935
37,033
136
Why? Why shouldn't someone be able to rent from Big Landlord for a single family home? Big Landlord bad, small landlord good? Give me a break. Small landlords can be just as shitty, if not more shitty than a big landlord that might actually have lawyers on staff so they follow fair housing laws.

Yeah even just the legality of such a restriction is dubious let alone the actual impact of the policy.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,350
8,660
136
Maybe Vance is a case study of a public person actively, knowingly, choosing Nazism.
It makes sense, the Republican Party has been casting out anyone not loyal to der Fuhrer.
What else is a patriot to do?
I like what Steve Schmidt did. Formerly a Republican campaign consultant, became a founder of The Lincoln Project and a DEMOCRAT! Has rejected the R party thoroughly and is doing his best to bury them. He's as funny as a heart attack, so don't expect chuckles (has a new YT video out just about daily).
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Jaskalas

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,678
8,055
136
I like what Steve Schmidt did. Formerly a Republican campaign consultant, became a founder of The Lincoln Project and a DEMOCRAT! Has rejected the R party thoroughly and is doing his best to bury them. He's as funny as a heart attack, so don't expect chuckles (has a new YT video out just about daily).
He's actually one of the few in the Lincoln Project who has atoned for their past sins against the US. Most of them are just waiting for the husk of the Republican Party they murdered to become available again for their dogshit-tier policies.
 
Reactions: Pohemi and Muse

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,350
8,660
136
He's actually one of the few in the Lincoln Project who has atoned for their past sins against the US. Most of them are just waiting for the husk of the Republican Party they murdered to become available again for their dogshit-tier policies.
Another is Rick Wilson (also Lincoln Project cofounder). On August 18, 2024 I downloaded a Tiktok video he did excoriating Trump (I have it as an MP4 file) in a way that I figure would make Steve Schmidt blush. I went looking for it a few days ago, wanted to post a link here but couldn't find it. I think it was accessible from a reddit thread. There are a bunch of Rick Wilson's Tiktok videos on Trump you can see if you search, but maybe not that one unless you're lucky. He was responding to a Trump team cease and desist order. He just dared Trump to go through with prosecuting, said he would destroy him in court and that Trump knows it and doesn't dare.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Pohemi and nickqt

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
704
315
136
He's actually one of the few in the Lincoln Project who has atoned for their past sins against the US. Most of them are just waiting for the husk of the Republican Party they murdered to become available again for their dogshit-tier policies.
I’d say Nicole Wallace surely fits in there. Michael Steele as well.
Stuart Stevens (Project Lincoln) and Sarah Longwell seem to have moderated too.
 
Reactions: nickqt

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,242
13,529
146
You can disagree all you want, but the facts don't support it. Specially since buying, selling, investing in real estate has been going on for decades.. nothing has changed in that respect,. which puts your argument flat on it's face. Do you even understand why the housing market exploded after the pandemic which caused houses prices to sky rocket? Low interest rates, combined with lack of supply. We are currenlty short 6 million single family houses to meet demand currently across this country. We don't have enough skilled workers as it is to keep up with demand, so that number increases every year. We haven't been able to keep up with demand for over a decade. When interest rates dropped to the lowest they have every been, it amplfied that supply problem because people who couldn't afford a house, where able to, which created more competitition, driving up prices. But this also highlights the other issue, and that is income/wages, as you so eligantly demonstrated in your example, not realizing it. Wages hasn't kept up with inflation since Reagan, for the most part wages have been stagnet for decades.
Could fix two birds with one stone, kill the 6 million richest people and disseminate their wealth to everyone else.
 
Reactions: FelixDeCat

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,643
39,986
136
Why? Why shouldn't someone be able to rent from Big Landlord for a single family home? Big Landlord bad, small landlord good? Give me a break. Small landlords can be just as shitty, if not more shitty than a big landlord that might actually have lawyers on staff so they follow fair housing laws.

Why? Do you not care about scale, the effects downrange for people trying to buy a house? Maybe people don't want to see private equity do to the single family market what it did to the multi family. Pretty sure large numbers of houses being unoccupied simply because people who don't need them are waiting for a better selling climate fucks over a lot of potential buyers.

44% of single family home purchases in 2023 were by private equity firms. When they supplant the small landlords, they adopt a completely different business model that fucks over families even more. They focus on cutting costs, hiking rents, then unloading the property to another firm for a profit. As huge firms or single owners they are usually well insulated from the concerns of the little people by middle management firms. They raise rent beyond cost of living increases while investing money into lobbying against reforms that dilute their control.

As a rule, private equity firms want to rent, then increase rents (thus the building’s profits) so they can sell it at a premium. Not much of a break for the people living there usually, right? I'm sure you can see how this is completely at odds with what small landlords do, which is usually look for steady streams of rental income over time while their buildings grow in value. Actually knowing your landlord or designated rep and being able to talk to them at will is good, yes.

If there is a benefit to private equity taking over, I don't see it, but I don't have to look far to see the harm.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2005
25,005
8,275
136
Why? Do you not care about scale, the effects downrange for people trying to buy a house? Maybe people don't want to see private equity do to the single family market what it did to the multi family. Pretty sure large numbers of houses being unoccupied simply because people who don't need them are waiting for a better selling climate fucks over a lot of potential buyers.

44% of single family home purchases in 2023 were by private equity firms. When they supplant the small landlords, they adopt a completely different business model that fucks over families even more. They focus on cutting costs, hiking rents, then unloading the property to another firm for a profit. As huge firms or single owners they are usually well insulated from the concerns of the little people by middle management firms. They raise rent beyond cost of living increases while investing money into lobbying against reforms that dilute their control.

As a rule, private equity firms want to rent, then increase rents (thus the building’s profits) so they can sell it at a premium. Not much of a break for the people living there usually, right? I'm sure you can see how this is completely at odds with what small landlords do, which is usually look for steady streams of rental income over time while their buildings grow in value. Actually knowing your landlord or designated rep and being able to talk to them at will is good, yes.
Having had both corporate and small landlords, having a relatively faceless corporation has been much better than weirdo small time landlord who just showed up unannounced whenever and fixed stuff whenever. There were some upsides to the small landlord, but also some annoying downsides. Just like there have been upsides for a large corporate landlord and some downsides as well.

As for SFH stuff, that number you mention is strictly single year sales. Last I saw, they own a tiny fraction of all SFHs. Families can also live in more than just SFHs, and renters still care about the communities they live in. The reason people are often driven to suburban style detached housing is that it happens to be all that has been built in their price ranges.

If we want to stick it to investment groups, just allow more shit to be built more easily instead of of only by entrenched players that know how to navigate the corrupt morass of local politics. They even tell us that it is the primary driver of why they are making tons of money on this whole endeavor in their public filings.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,207
16,666
136
Huh, the stats I've seen claim that we have 15 million vacant homes in the US.
That’s one of those stats where you need to define vacant.
Is a rental that’s vacant for a week count?
Is a pending home sale that is vacant count?
Does a home that has crumbled to the ground and not eligible for a mortgage count?
Does a vacant property due to being abandoned or it’s ownership tied up in court count?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,554
50,730
136
Why? Do you not care about scale, the effects downrange for people trying to buy a house? Maybe people don't want to see private equity do to the single family market what it did to the multi family. Pretty sure large numbers of houses being unoccupied simply because people who don't need them are waiting for a better selling climate fucks over a lot of potential buyers.

44% of single family home purchases in 2023 were by private equity firms. When they supplant the small landlords, they adopt a completely different business model that fucks over families even more. They focus on cutting costs, hiking rents, then unloading the property to another firm for a profit. As huge firms or single owners they are usually well insulated from the concerns of the little people by middle management firms. They raise rent beyond cost of living increases while investing money into lobbying against reforms that dilute their control.

As a rule, private equity firms want to rent, then increase rents (thus the building’s profits) so they can sell it at a premium. Not much of a break for the people living there usually, right? I'm sure you can see how this is completely at odds with what small landlords do, which is usually look for steady streams of rental income over time while their buildings grow in value. Actually knowing your landlord or designated rep and being able to talk to them at will is good, yes.

If there is a benefit to private equity taking over, I don't see it, but I don't have to look far to see the harm.
Private equity is simply responding to the market failure we created. They say so themselves in their prospectus.

The reason they are investing in housing is because they (correctly) believe that government will continue to prevent the construction of adequate housing and so prices will continue to increase. Sadly enough a lot of those restrictions on housing come from precisely those small landlords who want to ban further construction to ensure their property values and rents continue to increase. It is very possible to get private equity out of housing if you want to - just let a shitload of it be built and it will turn into a bad investment for them!

Remember, we can stop all this housing nonsense any time we choose to and not only is it free but we would actually make money as a society on the deal.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,935
37,033
136
Remember, we can stop all this housing nonsense any time we choose to and not only is it free but we would actually make money as a society on the deal.

Every municipality with above average housing costs has a cash printing press locked in the basement behind a door labeled “zoning capacity” that most of them simply refuse to touch.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,554
50,730
136
Every municipality with above average housing costs has a cash printing press locked in the basement behind a door labeled “zoning capacity” that most of them simply refuse to touch.
It's amazing what people can convince themselves of when they want reality to be a certain way. I can't even remember how many times I've heard that building more housing will cost municipalities more in services than they take in taxes.

Like, how and why do they think cities exist? Are they intended to be some sort of tax dollar losing enterprise?
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,005
8,275
136
That’s one of those stats where you need to define vacant.
Is a rental that’s vacant for a week count?
Is a pending home sale that is vacant count?
Does a home that has crumbled to the ground and not eligible for a mortgage count?
Does a vacant property due to being abandoned or it’s ownership tied up in court count?
I believe many vacancy statistics include those above without, but also include vacancies that occur between rentals as well.

Regardless, total vacancies nationwide means little to people looking for housing in specific metro areas like the Bay Area, Boston, or NYC.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,204
6,323
126
It's amazing what people can convince themselves of when they want reality to be a certain way. I can't even remember how many times I've heard that building more housing will cost municipalities more in services than they take in taxes.

Like, how and why do they think cities exist? Are they intended to be some sort of tax dollar losing enterprise?
I have heard that NY City’s infrastructure is aging and in need of capital investment. Why has it not been kept up to date? I am asking because, if such a need exists and has not been met, does it have any bearing on what you are saying? I don’t know but deferred maintenance strikes me as typical of human behavior and the most problematic for large complex systems especially if you live in them.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |