Question Zen 4 X3D and speculation about Dragon Range X - Intel's nightmare

[igor_kavinski]

AMD Zen 4 X3D SKUs possibly the Ryzen 7 7800X3D and Ryzen 9 7950X3D reportedly launching early next year to take the gaming crown from Intel - NotebookCheck.net News

I think AMD will rain upon Intel's Raptor Lake parade with Zen 4 X3D samples sent to the press. Release may still happen in Jan-2023.

The possibility of Dragon Range laptops having V-cache excites me like nothing else! It would be the ultimate dagger shaped nail in Intel's coffin, as far as their aspirations for gaming supremacy go.

FR3cm_wXEAA3afw (3271×1753) (twimg.com)



That almost confirms that AMD is bringing V-cache to mobile gaming.

 

[eek2121]

No. It has been said my multiple people that there is no space to move the 2 chiplets around to fit a 3rd, with all the caps around.

Not to mention that the socket max is 230 watt, and the 7950x will do that.

They could do a 24-core -32 core part. They won't, however, unless they feel the competitive threat from Intel has become a problem.

 

[eek2121]

Personally I think it was a typo because the performance bar looks like a 7950X but otoh AMD have probably tested a 24c 3 chiplet variant and perhaps they toyed with the idea of calling it a 7970x so it was a slip of the mind.

It is most certainly a typo. However, one thing that was made clear from the leaks was that AMD has headroom to push the bar higher (excluding X3D) if needed.

 

[Timmah!]

Why did I see some slides with a '7970X' ?

Cause you shopped it :-D
Or they meant Radeon 7970x

 

[Timorous]

It is most certainly a typo. However, one thing that was made clear from the leaks was that AMD has headroom to push the bar higher (excluding X3D) if needed.

Indeed.

AMD have options to increase perf. Need more MT bang a 24c version or perhaps a 32c version based on Zen4c. Perhaps a hybrid 24c with an 8c Zen4 CCD for gaming and a 16c Zen4c CCD for MT. Then there is V-Cache to improve gaming performance. So yea, AMD have lots of options if they want to release a more performant part. What options do Intel realistically have? Push the clocks and power consumption up seems to be about it.

 

[nicalandia]

Indeed.

AMD have options to increase perf. Need more MT bang a 24c version or perhaps a 32c version based on Zen4c. Perhaps a hybrid 24c with an 8c Zen4 CCD for gaming and a 16c Zen4c CCD for MT. Then there is V-Cache to improve gaming performance. So yea, AMD have lots of options if they want to release a more performant part. What options do Intel realistically have? Push the clocks and power consumption up seems to be about it.

They have the Option, but will not be needing them since this time Intel has decided to concede the High End segment(High TDP Laptop parts) to AMD.

 

[nicalandia]

At first I thought that Dragon Range was going to be a 24C/48T Part build on a Zen4c Because I thought that the Top of the Line 13900HK Raptor Lake would also come with 24C/32T...... But it's actually a 14C/20T processor. So Dragon Range will be a lower TDP 16C/32T Zen4 CPU

View attachment 68408


Will MTL with only 6P+8E be able to match that beast(Dragon Range)?

This could be Dragon Range at 65 Watts vs Apple and vs Intel

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

At first I thought that Dragon Range was going to be a 24C/48T Part build on a Zen4c Because I thought that the Top of the Line 13900HK Raptor Lake would also come with 24C/32T...... But it's actually a 14C/20T processor. So Dragon Range will be a lower TDP 16C/32T Zen4 CPU
......
Will MTL with only 6P+8E be able to match that beast(Dragon Range)?

13900HK Raptor Lake is not top of the line.
12900HK Alder Lake is also 14C/20T, but there is still 16C/24T i9-12800HX, 12850HX, 12900HX and 12950HX.
I don't see a reason why Intel wouldn't release 24C32T for mobile.

6P+8E MTL won't match Dragon Ridge in MT, It has too few cores.

 

[nicalandia]

13900HK Raptor Lake is not top of the line.
12900HK Alder Lake is also 14C/20T, but there is still 16C/24T i9-12800HX, 12850HX, 12900HX and 12950HX.
I don't see a reason why Intel wouldn't release 24C32T for mobile.

6P+8E MTL won't match Dragon Ridge in MT, It has too few cores.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the 12900HX... Perhaps it's refreshed 13900HX makes it's debut soon on Geekbench.

 

[poke01]

That would be great if people actually cared about any of that...
But people don't buy portable pcs en masse to do 3d rendering video encoding or anything else that uses up all the performance.
People care about the longest battery life in standby or while watching movies or browsing the net and if desktops CPUs are anything to go by then intel has 100% more efficiency than amd in idle.
And I'm not saying that other people don't exist at all but the giantly biggest portion of people that buy mobile care about idle battery life the most because all they need to do with it is very light home office stuff.

Messungen: Leistungsaufnahme, Temperatur und Energieeffizienz - Seite 9 - Hardwareluxx

Core i9-12900K und Core i5-12600K: Hybrid-Desktop-CPUs Alder Lake im Test.

www.hardwareluxx.de

If that's the case then most people care about. Apple is already the leader in that space. M1 and M2 have done it already. Apple will only increase their lead in this consumer ultrabook space with a M3 M chip in the coming years.

 

[Rekluse]

Dragon Range X is all well and good if you want a Big Chonky gaming laptop with a discrete GPU on board.

The real secret weapon to my mind would be a Phoenix X, an iGPU focused APU that leverages cache to mitigate the slower LPDDR5 rams effect on gaming. Much the same way infinity cache mitigated GDDR6's bandwidth deficit to GDDR6X

 

[Asterox]

As expected for Zen 4 X3D version.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575587018645467136

 

[nicalandia]

As expected for Zen 4 X3D version.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575587018645467136

Can you post pictures? I can't see Twitter right now

 

[Markfw]

This is a copy of the pic I think.

 

[nicalandia]

View attachment 68432

This is a copy of the pic I think.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Kaluan]

Much the same way infinity cache mitigated GDDR6's bandwidth deficit to GDDR6X

There's hardly any bandwidth deficit between the 2. With 24Gbps GDDR6 entering mass production soon and 27Gbps not too far off.

It's the need for a much wider bus/more die area that needed to be mitigated (384bit -> 256bit and such).

 

[DrMrLordX]

I don't see a reason why Intel wouldn't release 24C32T for mobile.

It's a bit curious as to why Intel doesn't want their updated product in as many markets as possible. Even if they stuck to 8P + 8e as the best mobile config, having Raptor Cove and Gracemont+ in there instead of older Alder Lake would still be an improvement.

 

[LightningZ71]

8p+8e mtl would likely suffer greatly against a 16p AMD product (dragon ridge) in mobile. At least with a 6+16 mtl, Intel can advertise more hardware threads (22) vs AMD at 16. Its also likely that they can achieve better MT throughput at low power levels than AMD.

 

[DrMrLordX]

8p+8e mtl would likely suffer greatly against a 16p AMD product (dragon ridge) in mobile. At least with a 6+16 mtl, Intel can advertise more hardware threads (22) vs AMD at 16. Its also likely that they can achieve better MT throughput at low power levels than AMD.

Meteor Lake may not exceed 6P + 8e.

 

[Carfax83]

Meteor Lake may not exceed 6P + 8e.

Is there a reason why that's the case? Probably because it's a new node and they need time to tweak it so that it can accommodate larger dies?

 

[Kaluan]

It's a bit curious as to why Intel doesn't want their updated product in as many markets as possible. Even if they stuck to 8P + 8e as the best mobile config, having Raptor Cove and Gracemont+ in there instead of older Alder Lake would still be an improvement.

Well, you know Raptor Lake-S (8+16, 32EU IGP) for mobile would be 257mm2 in size and hypothetical Raptor Lake-P (6+8, 96EU IGP) would be ~260mm2...

That's gotta be brutal for their margins, not to mention the 96EU 260mm2 RPL would get whooped by Rembrandt's IGP anyway, let alone Phoenix Point's. I think they are just minimizing their losses here.

13th gen HX just being leaked in one of the biggest DTR laptops seen in years (18") speaks volumes about how bad power consumption will be for those. Nevermind 12th gen HX's perverse 150W+ PL2.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Is there a reason why that's the case? Probably because it's a new node and they need time to tweak it so that it can accommodate larger dies?

Possibly. Intel 4 has been pushed back quite a bit. To date it's only been used on Loihi 2 and a tiny RISC-V die. The compute tile for the 6P+8e Meteor Lake is less than 40mm2. Beyond that, there is no known reason. In any case, it looks like Meteor Lake is being lined up to compete against Phoenix Point more than Dragon Range.

13th gen HX just being leaked in one of the biggest DTR laptops seen in years (18") speaks volumes about how bad power consumption will be for those. Nevermind 12th gen HX's perverse 150W+ PL2.

If you look at efficiency charts for Raptor Lake vs Alder Lake at various power limits, it certainly appears that Raptor Lake is at least marginally more-efficient at nearly any given power limit. Even if Raptor Lake could still consume an unfortunately-large amount of power in HX form, per watt Raptor Lake would still be a better product, even if neither product would likely fare well vs. Dragon Range.

 

[Carfax83]

Zen 4 X3D is going to be a gaming monster. If there is no clock regression vs the standard parts then a 30% uplift is on the table and it will be untouchable by RPL.

30% uplift? Perhaps in certain titles, but I think that's too optimistic for across the board. I've said this before, but I don't think Zen 4 3D is going to get as high a performance increase as Zen 3 did. Standard Zen 4's memory and cache performance is already notably superior to the 5800x 3D's, and Zen 4 is faster across most titles compared to the 5800x3D I believe without the benefit of V cache.

That's why I think V cache won't have the same impact as it did for Zen 3. If anything, the dual CCD versions like the 7950x and the 7900x would benefit the most from the increased cache as it would further mitigate that cross CCD latency and bandwidth penalties.

 

[Kaluan]

If you look at efficiency charts for Raptor Lake vs Alder Lake at various power limits, it certainly appears that Raptor Lake is at least marginally more-efficient at nearly any given power limit. Even if Raptor Lake could still consume an unfortunately-large amount of power in HX form, per watt Raptor Lake would still be a better product, even if neither product would likely fare well vs. Dragon Range.

Well yeah, but (in particular) on the mobile side of things, gaining 30% more MT performance at the cost of 20% more power ain't the amazing win you'd think. 12th gen already has horrid power needs to perform well, 13th gen won't magically fix that, on the contrary IMO.

 

[LightningZ71]

Meteor Lake may not exceed 6P + 8e.

That would be a significant disappointment if that turns out to be the case. 6+8 may have a tough time against even Phoenix (believed to be 8p) in a heavily power constrained implementation as Phoenix will likely have significantly less power overhead as compared to desktop Zen4 with its N6 IOD on top of being on a more mature N5 node.

 

[DrMrLordX]

That would be a significant disappointment if that turns out to be the case.

A lot of AMD's competition is likely to be a significant disappointment unless the ARMy shows up big in the non-Apple PC space. Still waiting for that to happen.