Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[igor_kavinski]

Can you play Steam games on It?

I think the emulation works pretty well. You can play Steam games but obviously the performance may not be always great.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I think the emulation works pretty well

No.

You can play Steam games but obviously the performance may not be always great.

WoW64 doesn't support AVX or anything useful.
And unless Phoenix/Oryon has a TSO switch, the mem perf gonna get hammered with memory consistency model emulation.

 

[FlameTail]

So there is Strix Point, and then Strix Halo?

I read it has 16 core CPU and a 40 CU GPU. That sounds beastly.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That sounds beastly.

Unfortunately it will come with a price to match. I was looking at relatively "cheap" laptops with 4090. The cheapest one that I can actually afford (if I'm super desperate to part with money) is a 13900HX ASUS laptop. Ryzen HX laptops with 4090 are way overpriced. By keeping these laptops out of the price range of gamers, AMD is making sure that a significant number of gamers stay Intel fans for the foreseeable future and never get to experience the better performance/lesser heat output/lower power consumption of a Ryzen.

 

[JoeRambo]

WoW64 doesn't support AVX or anything useful.
And unless Phoenix/Oryon has a TSO switch, the mem perf gonna get hammered with memory consistency model emulation.

AVX is optional feature, nice to have, but most older stuff is limited to SSE2 . In fact x64 ABI requires SSE2 extensions, so it took some time since patent expiration for Apple and now MS to even support 64bit app emulation.
TSO is kinda big, but i'd expect anywhere it matters the vendor would want to provide ARM64 native build anyway.

The porting from x64 to ARM64 is not that bad, the problems arise if any of the libraries your project is using only have X64 variant -> and those things are very common. MS is throwing lifeline to such project with ARM64EC binaries that allow to mix ARM64/x64 libraries.
It remains to be seen how good it will work and how much performance will suffer, but it offers path to easy porting where otherwise none would exist.

Also there is a factor currently that all native ARM64 code on Windows/Linux is compiled with compilers meant for "also ran" hopeless generic CPUs from ARM and co. Providing LLVM with proper Nuvia compiler target might extract some 5-10% more performance. So keep that in mind comparing say M3 vs new stuff.

The fact that we are getting proper ARM development machine that is not Apple will mean good things everywhere in Linux/Windows ecosystem and will bear fruits over time.

 

[FlameTail]

Unfortunately it will come with a price to match. I was looking at relatively "cheap" laptops with 4090. The cheapest one that I can actually afford (if I'm super desperate to part with money) is a 13900HX ASUS laptop. Ryzen HX laptops with 4090 are way overpriced. By keeping these laptops out of the price range of gamers, AMD is making sure that a significant number of gamers stay Intel fans for the foreseeable future and never get to experience the better performance/lesser heat output/lower power consumption of a Ryzen.

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

The Strix Halo with 40 CU isn't going to be anywhere near RTX 4090 performance.

 

[soresu]

WoW64 doesn't support AVX or anything useful.

FEX-emu supports AVX instructions starting last year.

And unless Phoenix/Oryon has a TSO switch, the mem perf gonna get hammered with memory consistency model emulation.

I know V1/X2+ has an instruction set called LSE2 which helps emulation some according to FEX devs, is that related to memory?

 

[jpiniero]

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

The Strix Halo with 40 CU isn't going to be anywhere near RTX 4090 performance.

It'll be expensive regardless.

 

[Abwx]

By keeping these laptops out of the price range of gamers, AMD is making sure that a significant number of gamers stay Intel fans for the foreseeable future and never get to experience the better performance/lesser heat output/lower power consumption of a Ryzen.

AMD has nothing to do with laptops pricings, it s the OEMs decision, for some reason they target way bigger profits with 7X40/7X45 APUs/CPUs.

 

[Glo.]

By keeping these laptops out of the price range of gamers, AMD is making sure that a significant number of gamers stay Intel fans for the foreseeable future and never get to experience the better performance/lesser heat output/lower power consumption of a Ryzen.

If those chips are so expensive, why SFF PCs based on those chips are dirt cheap: 649-749$ for a config with 32 GB of RAM and 512 GB SSD to 1 TB SSD?

Its OEMs which set the prices for those products. The chips are dirt cheap.

 

[FlameTail]

What is SFF?

 

[eek2121]

Unfortunately it will come with a price to match. I was looking at relatively "cheap" laptops with 4090. The cheapest one that I can actually afford (if I'm super desperate to part with money) is a 13900HX ASUS laptop. Ryzen HX laptops with 4090 are way overpriced. By keeping these laptops out of the price range of gamers, AMD is making sure that a significant number of gamers stay Intel fans for the foreseeable future and never get to experience the better performance/lesser heat output/lower power consumption of a Ryzen.

Price isn’t first on everyone’s list. Give me a thin/light that is great at productivity workloads and can play my favorite games at decent quality/framerate and i am willing to pay through the nose.

That was one of the reasons I bought a razer laptop. At the time, it was the only laptop under 4 lbs with a decent CPU and GPU.

AMD has nothing to do with laptops pricings, it s the OEMs decision, for some reason they target way bigger profits with 7X40/7X45 APUs/CPUs.

Not true. AMD dictates the pricing of the components they make. In most countries, AMD and/or it’s distributors can dictate a minimum selling price as part of a sales contract. Many companies do this to keep street pricing from falling off a cliff.

Note that I am not saying AMD specifically does this, but I have worked for and with companies (manufacturers and distributors) that do this. It is pretty standard practice.

What is SFF?

Small form factor.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

My point was, if the specs are good, it won't be affordable compared to some Intel laptop offering with dGPU. So it being a beast is kinda moot for the majority of us, other than getting excited at the benchmarks. Intel spams the market with so many laptops that you are bound to find one that meets your needs at the price that seems good to you, rather than finding a comparable Ryzen laptop.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Its OEMs which set the prices for those products. The chips are dirt cheap.

Those OEMs are hurting AMD's market share and mind share. AMD needs to have a serious talk with them. It's like the OEMs are deliberately swaying consumers towards their cheaper Intel models.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It'll be expensive regardless.

Ah. You GET it.

 

[mikk]

AMD has nothing to do with laptops pricings, it s the OEMs decision, for some reason they target way bigger profits with 7X40/7X45 APUs/CPUs.

Are you telling us the CPUs are for free?

 

[Geddagod]

Price isn’t first on everyone’s list. Give me a thin/light that is great at productivity workloads and can play my favorite games at decent quality/framerate and i am willing to pay through the nose.

It's nice you can, ig, but most people actually do care about budgets since they don't have unlimited money :/

Not true. AMD dictates the pricing of the components they make.

Obviously?

Note that I am not saying AMD specifically does this,

So why bring it up lol

Are you telling us the CPUs are for free?

That's just soooo disingenuous

 

[Abwx]

Are you telling us the CPUs are for free?

Their cost is marginal in the total bill, there s a 7840U HP laptop that is 999€ with 19% VAT included, a Beelink mini PC with a 7840HS at 730$.

That s telling about the prices paid by OEMs, even a top bin 16C Dragon Range shouldnt be more than 300$ for an OEM, eventually 350$ for a mobile dedicated 7950X3D, think that those latter are in 3000$ laptops.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-EliteBook-845-G10-review-Business-laptop-impresses-with-AMD-Ryzen-7-7840U-and-unbeatable-price.754141.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Beelink-SER7-mini-PC-review-Ryzen-7-7840HS-with-vapor-chamber-cooling.745786.0.html

 

[adroc_thurston]

AVX is optional feature, nice to have

Until you remember video games are a thing!

 

[CakeMonster]

I'm guessing the X3D layer on Z5 will stay similar to Z3 and Z4 given how its more difficult to shrink, and then we could probably some diminishing returns between vanilla and X3D performance eventually.

 

[moinmoin]

I'm guessing the X3D layer on Z5 will stay similar to Z3 and Z4 given how its more difficult to shrink, and then we could probably some diminishing returns between vanilla and X3D performance eventually.

Why do you expect the difference to be diminishing? As SRAM is not shrinking at all cache sizes won't move as much as it used to either. And as long as that doesn't change much X3D even with just one 64MB layer will continue to add a lot to the total cache available.

 

[Joe NYC]

Until you remember video games are a thing!

I wonder how many games will even officially support Windows on Arm. It seems like opening a can of worms for very few extra unit sales.

 

[Joe NYC]

I'm guessing the X3D layer on Z5 will stay similar to Z3 and Z4 given how its more difficult to shrink, and then we could probably some diminishing returns between vanilla and X3D performance eventually.

Why would you expect the performance difference to be diminishing? If anything, a cache miss is more costly on higher performing core than on lower performing core.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I wonder how many games will even officially support Windows on Arm

0.

a cache miss is more costly on higher performing core than on lower performing core.

Ehhh, fatter ROBs can cope with worse memory setups just fine.

 

[xilli_fiberbit]

Would partners have ES Zen 5 DT silicon ~5 months before launch?

There are sampling already of ZEN 5 :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719461095306416204